# If radical Islam is violent due to culture and not religion **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 11, 2015, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741 "2015-09-11T23:24:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 37
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2015, 10:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741/722 "2015-09-24T10:59:30Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > (it should be noted that the “infidel” business refers strictly to the polytheists/pagans Muhammad was at war with at the time, BTW. None of that applies to Christians, Jews etc…) Yes! That’s me. I am the very definition of an infidel. Why does it matter to me how he wants to treat Christians and Jews if he wants - me - dead? ---
**Author:** ![A\_isha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@A\_isha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/A_isha)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2015, 11:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741/723 "2015-09-24T11:10:37Z")
Why are you artificially limiting your comparison to the New Testament? Why don’t you compare the Qu’ran as a whole to the Bible as a whole, and tell us what the Bible has to say about things like slavery, the treatment of women, and the fate of unbelievers and apostates? ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2015, 11:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741/724 "2015-09-24T11:19:36Z")
> [@A\_isha](#): > > Why are you artificially limiting your comparison to the New Testament? Why don’t you compare the Qu’ran as a whole to the Bible as a whole, and tell us what the Bible has to say about things like slavery, the treatment of women, and the fate of unbelievers and apostates? Moses - Old testament Jesus - New Testament Mohammed - Koran They are actually separate movements with 3 different messages. I’m not really qualified to compare the OT to the Koran. What is significant about the OT vs the Koran, as far as I know, that stonings and beatings and whatnot were universally outlawed by OT Rabbis and what not, for, at least 2,500 years or more. But the violent commandments in the Koran have been debated by Islamic clergy from their inception up until this day. In other words, there are violent commandments and there have allways been some steady percentage of Muslims who held to these violent commandments, right? ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2015, 11:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741/725 "2015-09-24T11:21:09Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > So,in other words, he does preach death and violence. You are not actually proposing that he does not. You are simply saying that he is commanding death and violence and that he is using hyperbolic language to get his point across? > > Hyperbole: exaggerated statements I’m saying he’s not commanding death and violence _at all_. > [@](#): > > (BTW I could not be any less interested in what is meant by “sacred month”. I can think of few things that are hardly less relevant.) > > So, let’s be clear, Mohammed is still calling for death and violence, and what you find so fascinating is that he only wants people to use death and violence as a last resort, try being a gentleman first? > > Am I characterizing your description accurately? No, you’re not. You’re not even trying, as evidenced by the first sentence. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2015, 11:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741/726 "2015-09-24T11:23:57Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > I’m saying he’s not commanding death and violence _at all_. So what does he mean by “killing” in the following passage then: Quran (2:191-193) - "And kill them wherever you find them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out. And Al-Fitnah [disbelief or unrest] is worse than killing…but if they desist, then lo! Allah is forgiving and merciful. ---
**Author:** ![A\_isha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@A\_isha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/A_isha)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2015, 11:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741/727 "2015-09-24T11:36:31Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > They are actually separate movements with 3 different messages. No they aren’t. What Christian denomination rejects the Old Testament and only considers the New Testament to be Scripture? > [@](#): > > I’m not really qualified to compare the OT to the Koran. And yet you don’t seem to let that stop you one bit, since the rest of your post directly compares the Qur’an to the Old Testament. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2015, 11:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741/728 "2015-09-24T11:44:37Z")
> [@A\_isha](#): > > No they aren’t. What Christian denomination rejects the Old Testament and only considers the New Testament to be Scripture? There are fundamental differences between Judaism and Christianity. I am not going to get into a debate of splitting hairs with you. They are clearly different. There is no standard answer. Ask 10 Christians you will get 10 answers. None of them, however, will place the words of Moses - above - the words of Christ. > [@](#): > > And yet you don’t seem to let that stop you one bit, since the rest of your post directly compares the Qur’an to the Old Testament. and yet: What is significant about the OT vs the Koran, as far as I know, that stonings and beatings and whatnot were universally outlawed by OT Rabbis and what not, for, at least 2,500 years or more. But the violent commandments in the Koran have been debated by Islamic clergy from their inception up until this day. In other words, there are violent commandments and there have allways been some steady percentage of Muslims who held to these violent commandments, right? ---
**Author:** ![A\_isha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@A\_isha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/A_isha)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2015, 11:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741/729 "2015-09-24T11:46:29Z")
Oh, and Eid al-Adha Mubarak, everyone! 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![A\_isha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@A\_isha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/A_isha)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2015, 11:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741/730 "2015-09-24T11:58:42Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > There are fundamental differences between Judaism and Christianity. I am not going to get into a debate of splitting hairs with you. They are clearly different. There is no standard answer. Ask 10 Christians you will get 10 answers. None of them, however, will place the words of Moses - above - the words of Christ. What is the Christian view of homosexuality and what Bible verses do Christians cite to support that view, Robert? > [@](#): > > What is significant about the OT vs the Koran, as far as I know, that stonings and beatings and whatnot were universally outlawed by OT Rabbis and what not, for, at least 2,500 years or more. [Uh, no.](https://reason.com/archives/1998/11/01/invitation-to-a-stoning) ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2015, 12:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741/731 "2015-09-24T12:02:59Z")
> [@A\_isha](#): > > What is the Christian view of homosexuality and what Bible verses do Christians cite to support that view, Robert? They are more or less synonymous. That is completely beside the point. What is at stake here is the (earthly) fate of the unbeliever/infidel in each of the three faiths. > [@](#): > > [Uh, no.](https://reason.com/archives/1998/11/01/invitation-to-a-stoning) Bad link ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2015, 12:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741/732 "2015-09-24T12:07:19Z")
> [@A\_isha](#): > > [Uh, no.](https://reason.com/archives/1998/11/01/invitation-to-a-stoning) And this will matter when they actually - start- stoning people to death for homosexuality ---
**Author:** ![A\_isha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@A\_isha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/A_isha)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2015, 12:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741/733 "2015-09-24T12:27:50Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > They are more or less synonymous. Yes, and they come from the Old Testament. > [@](#): > > That is completely beside the point. Er, no, it _is_ the point - you can’t simply pretend the Old Testament doesn’t exist and only focus on the New Testament when talking about Christianity. > [@](#): > > What is at stake here is the (earthly) fate of the unbeliever/infidel in each of the three faiths. It’s pretty much the same in all three. > [@](#): > > Bad link > **[Reasonable Doubts: Invitation to a Stoning](https://reason.com/1998/11/01/invitation-to-a-stoning/)** > > Getting cozy with theocrats > [@Robert163](#): > > And this will matter when they actually - start- stoning people to death for homosexuality Don’t go moving the goalposts now, Robert. If you say that Islam is worse than Christianity because of what its scriptures command believers to do, but Christian scriptures say the same things, then that initial claim about Islam is _false_. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2015, 12:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741/734 "2015-09-24T12:32:06Z")
> [@A\_isha](#): > > Yes, and they come from the Old Testament. > > Er, no, it _is_ the point - you can’t simply pretend the Old Testament doesn’t exist and only focus on the New Testament when talking about Christianity. > > It’s pretty much the same in all three. > > [Reasonable Doubts: Invitation to a Stoning](https://reason.com/archives/1998/11/01/invitation-to-a-stoning) > > Don’t go moving the goalposts now, Robert. If you say that Islam is worse than Christianity because of what its scriptures command believers to do, but Christian scriptures say the same things, then that initial claim about Islam is _false_. Ok 1- Islam is a violent and dangerous religion 2- Christianity and Judaism are not Suppose, for the sake of debate I am wrong about #2. I am not admitting I am, I am saying, for the sake of debate, suppose I am. How would that make point #1 morally justifiable? ---
**Author:** ![A\_isha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@A\_isha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/A_isha)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2015, 12:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741/735 "2015-09-24T12:44:57Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > Ok > > 1- Islam is a violent and dangerous religion > 2- Christianity and Judaism are not > Suppose, for the sake of debate I am wrong about #2. I am not admitting I am, I am saying, for the sake of debate, suppose I am. How would that make point #1 morally justifiable? That’s a red herring, since your #1 and #2 there have been inextricably linked in a single assertion since your OP of this thread. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2015, 12:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741/736 "2015-09-24T12:50:26Z")
> [@A\_isha](#): > > That’s a red herring, since your #1 and #2 there have been inextricably linked in a single assertion since your OP of this thread. No, actually, it’s incredibly relevant. Again, I am not admitting I am wrong, I’m saying, — if I were — how would that make Islam any more morally justified? The killing of Infidels, I mean. ---
**Author:** ![A\_isha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@A\_isha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/A_isha)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2015, 1:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741/737 "2015-09-24T13:07:54Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > No, actually, it’s incredibly relevant. Again, I am not admitting I am wrong, I’m saying, — if I were — how would that make Islam any more morally justified? The killing of Infidels, I mean. It doesn’t (and _I’m_ certainly against the killing of infidels!). But, again, that’s not your argument in this thread. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2015, 1:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741/738 "2015-09-24T13:13:10Z")
> [@A\_isha](#): > > It doesn’t (and _I’m_ certainly against the killing of infidels!). But, again, that’s not your argument in this thread. I’m not really concerned with your personal opinion. I’m more concerned with the [words](http://quran.com/2/191-193) of Mohammed. And kill them wherever you overtake them and expel them from wherever they have expelled you, and fitnah is worse than killing. And do not fight them at al-Masjid al- Haram until they fight you there. But if they fight you, then kill them. Such is the recompense of the disbelievers. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2015, 1:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741/739 "2015-09-24T13:17:51Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > Ok > > 1- Islam is a violent and dangerous religion > 2- Christianity and Judaism are not > Suppose, for the sake of debate I am wrong about #2. I am not admitting I am, I am saying, for the sake of debate, suppose I am. How would that make point #1 morally justifiable? It makes it irrelevant, because it proves that quotes taken out of context from either religion do not reflect the overall violence or lack thereof of both religions. Christianity and Islam are both peaceful religions, despite what a a few quotes from either religion say. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2015, 1:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741/740 "2015-09-24T13:21:48Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > Christianity and Islam are both peaceful religions, despite what a a few quotes from either religion say. What? And kill them wherever you overtake them and expel them from wherever they have expelled you, and fitnah is worse than killing. And do not fight them at al-Masjid al- Haram until they fight you there. But if they fight you, then kill them. Such is the recompense of the disbelievers. In (I presume) [Arabic](http://quran.com/2/191-193) I’d say 1 quote is more than enough!!! ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2015, 1:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741/741 "2015-09-24T13:24:59Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > I’d say 1 quote is more than enough!!! I say it is not. 1.5 billion peaceful Muslims is all the proof I need. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741.md?page=36) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741.md?page=38)