# If radical Islam is violent due to culture and not religion **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 11, 2015, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741 "2015-09-11T23:24:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 38
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2015, 1:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741/742 "2015-09-24T13:25:48Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > I’m not really concerned with your personal opinion. I’m more concerned with the [words](http://quran.com/2/191-193) of Mohammed. > > And kill them wherever you overtake them and expel them from wherever they have expelled you, and fitnah is worse than killing. And do not fight them at al-Masjid al- Haram until they fight you there. But if they fight you, then kill them. Such is the recompense of the disbelievers. Um, it says not to fight unless others fight you first. And the previous surah reads: Fight in the way of Allah those who fight you but do not transgress. Indeed. Allah does not like transgressors. I’m no scholar of Islam, but that reads like an admonition not to initiate violence, but to fight back hard when attacked…which is how my father taught me how to act, and I wouldn’t call him a violent man. ---
**Author:** ![A\_isha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@A\_isha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/A_isha)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2015, 1:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741/743 "2015-09-24T13:27:30Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > I’m not really concerned with your personal opinion. I’m more concerned with the [words](http://quran.com/2/191-193) of Mohammed. > > And kill them wherever you overtake them and expel them from wherever they have expelled you, and fitnah is worse than killing. And do not fight them at al-Masjid al- Haram until they fight you there. But if they fight you, then kill them. Such is the recompense of the disbelievers. This is why I said that your post above was a red herring, since you’re right back to this. What does the Bible say about unbelievers and the treatment thereof, Robert? > [@Robert163](#): > > I’d say 1 quote is more than enough!!! Only when it comes to Islam, apparently. Christianity, on the other hand, gets a pass from you no matter _how_ many violent passages there are in _its_ scriptures. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2015, 1:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741/744 "2015-09-24T13:32:17Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > Um, it says not to fight unless others fight you first. And the previous surah reads: > > Fight in the way of Allah those who fight you but do not transgress. Indeed. Allah does not like transgressors. > > I’m no scholar of Islam, but that reads like an admonition not to initiate violence, but to fight back hard when attacked…which is how my father taught me how to act, and I wouldn’t call him a violent man. oh well, ok, let’s narrow the focus a bit: And kill them wherever you overtake them ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2015, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741/745 "2015-09-24T13:34:15Z")
> [@A\_isha](#): > > This is why I said that your post above was a red herring, since you’re right back to this. > > What does the Bible say about unbelievers and the treatment thereof, Robert? > > Only when it comes to Islam, apparently. Christianity, on the other hand, gets a pass from you no matter _how_ many violent passages there are in _its_ scriptures. Yes, I am back to what I consider, being an Infidel, to be THE ONLY relevant passage in the Koran. ---
**Author:** ![A\_isha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@A\_isha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/A_isha)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2015, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741/746 "2015-09-24T13:36:52Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > Um, it says not to fight unless others fight you first. And the previous surah reads: > > Fight in the way of Allah those who fight you but do not transgress. Indeed. Allah does not like transgressors. > > I’m no scholar of Islam, but that reads like an admonition not to initiate violence, but to fight back hard when attacked…which is how my father taught me how to act, and I wouldn’t call him a violent man. And that is, in fact, the position of the majority of Islamic scholars of the Hanbali, Hanafi, and Maliki schools (with the additional caveat that, even in times of war, non-combatants are not to be targeted or killed). ---
**Author:** ![A\_isha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@A\_isha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/A_isha)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2015, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741/747 "2015-09-24T13:37:56Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > Yes, I am back to what I consider, being an Infidel, to be THE ONLY relevant passage in the Koran. Since you are not a Qurayshi polytheist living in 7th century Mecca, that verse does not apply to you. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2015, 1:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741/748 "2015-09-24T13:44:49Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > oh > > well, ok, let’s narrow the focus a bit: > > And kill them wherever you overtake them Is that what you’re reduced to? In this snippet of a surah, Islam says to kill people who try to kill you, therefore it is evil? Even in this majority-Christian land of ours, it’s legally and morally acceptable to kill people who try to kill you. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2015, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741/749 "2015-09-24T13:49:29Z")
> [@A\_isha](#): > > Since you are not a Qurayshi polytheist living in 7th century Mecca, that verse does not apply to you. [PEW POLL](http://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/the-worlds-muslims-religion-politics-society-beliefs-about-sharia/) Should Sharia Apply to All Citizens Among Muslims who support making sharia the law of the land, most do not believe that it should be applied to non-Muslims. **Only in five of 21** countries where this follow-up question was asked do at least **half say all citizens should be subject to Islamic law**. Penalty for adultery In **10 of 20 countries** where there are adequate samples for analysis, \*\*at least half \*\*of Muslims who favor making sharia the law of the land also **favor stoning unfaithful spouses** Penalties for Apostasy Compared with attitudes toward applying sharia in the domestic or criminal spheres, Muslims in the countries surveyed are significantly less supportive of the death penalty for converts.19 Nevertheless, **in six of the 20 countries** where there are adequate samples for analysis, **at least half** of those who favor making Islamic law the official law also s **upport executing apostates**. I see no question specifically asking about Infidels. But given the proposed fates of Adulterers and Apostates I do not like my chances. Seriously, it looks very scary. NOTE: at least half and the stonings mean half the people who beleive in Shariah also beleive in stonings. Not, half the people in that country. Still, even a small percentage of people who want to stone me is scary. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2015, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741/750 "2015-09-24T13:52:35Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > Is that what you’re reduced to? In this snippet of a surah, Islam says to kill people who try to kill you, therefore it is evil? > > Even in this majority-Christian land of ours, it’s legally and morally acceptable to kill people who try to kill you. Is this what you are reduced too, ignoring 1 & 4 and focusing exclusively on 2 & 3? 1- Kill them (infidels) wherever you overtake them 2- Expel those who have expelled you 3- but only fight those who fight you 4- Such (death) is the fate of the unbelievers ---
**Author:** ![A\_isha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@A\_isha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/A_isha)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2015, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741/751 "2015-09-24T13:59:54Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > I see no question specifically asking about Infidels. But given the proposed fates of Adulterers and Apostates I do not like my chances. Seriously, it looks very scary. Yes, there’s nothing there about infidels, so you had to go digging and cherrypicking to find something else to try and prop up your position on Islam, since your existing arguments certainly aren’t cutting it and are getting torn to pieces. And the Pew polls you linked to, despite your cherrypicking, still don’t do a very good job of supporting your arguments. > [@](#): > > NOTE: at least half and the stonings mean half the people who beleive in Shariah also beleive in stonings. Not, half the people in that country. Still, even a small percentage of people who want to stone me is scary. Unless they’re Christian, like the Reconstructionists in America. Then you don’t care. ---
**Author:** ![A\_isha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@A\_isha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/A_isha)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2015, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741/752 "2015-09-24T14:01:35Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > Is this what you are reduced too, ignoring 1 & 4 and focusing exclusively on 2 & 3? > > 1- Kill them (infidels) wherever you overtake them > 2- Expel those who have expelled you > 3- but only fight those who fight you > 4- Such (death) is the fate of the unbelievers Why not? You’re reduced to ignoring 2 and 3 and focusing exclusively on 1 and 4. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2015, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741/753 "2015-09-24T14:03:45Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > Is this what you are reduced too, ignoring 1 & 4 and focusing exclusively on 2 & 3? > > 1- Kill them (infidels) wherever you overtake them > 2- Expel those who have expelled you > 3- but only fight those who fight you > 4- Such (death) is the fate of the unbelievers That’s not how sentences work. Each must be read in context with the others. Such as the preceding surah, already quoted, or the next one: And if they cease, then indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful. It plainly says to fight back hard against your attackers, unless and until they surrender. I can hardly imagine a less controversial statement (outside of pacifists). ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2015, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741/754 "2015-09-24T14:09:25Z")
> [@A\_isha](#): > > Yes, there’s nothing there about infidels, so you had to go digging and cherrypicking to find something else to try and prop up your position on Islam, since your existing arguments certainly aren’t cutting it and are getting torn to pieces. > > And the Pew polls you linked to, despite your cherrypicking, still don’t do a very good job of supporting your arguments. This is not cherrypikcing. It is stating the amount of people who believe the death penalty, stoning, is the appropriate penalty for breaking the rules of your religion. If, 60% of the people in a country believe in Sharia Law, but only 40% believe it should be Law for non Muslims, if HALF of those believe in stoning, that mans 20% of the country believe stoning is the appropriate punishment for ANYONE who breaks the law. Whatever serious law that is. > [@](#): > > Unless they’re Christian, like the Reconstructionists in America. Then you don’t care. Apparently you do not know me, Robert163, very well, at all. I hate Christianity - almost - as much as Islam. Probably more! Because I am surrounded by Christians. I live in what is called “The Bible Belt” of my country. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2015, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741/755 "2015-09-24T14:10:43Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > That’s not how sentences work. Each must be read in context with the others. Such as the preceding surah, already quoted, or the next one: > > And if they cease, then indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful. > > It plainly says to fight back hard against your attackers, unless and until they surrender. I can hardly imagine a less controversial statement (outside of pacifists). and what if they don’t cease? cease disbelieving? ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2015, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741/756 "2015-09-24T14:13:19Z")
> [@A\_isha](#): > > Why not? You’re reduced to ignoring 2 and 3 and focusing exclusively on 1 and 4. No, I’m not ignoring 2&3, I have no problem with 2&3. I HAVE A VERY BIG PROBLEM WITH 1&4. ---
**Author:** ![A\_isha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@A\_isha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/A_isha)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2015, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741/757 "2015-09-24T14:20:54Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > This is not cherrypikcing. It is stating the amount of people who believe the death penalty, stoning, is the appropriate penalty for breaking the rules of your religion. > > If, 60% of the people in a country believe in Sharia Law, but only 40% believe it should be Law for non Muslims, if HALF of those believe in stoning, that mans 20% of the country believe stoning is the appropriate punishment for ANYONE who breaks the law. Whatever serious law that is. And that still represents a _minority_ of Muslims. > [@](#): > > Apparently you do not know me, Robert163, very well, at all. I hate Christianity - almost - as much as Islam. Probably more! You certainly haven’t evinced that in any of your posts in this thread. > [@Robert163](#): > > and what if they don’t cease? cease disbelieving? Per the Qur’an, the polytheists who surrender are to be escorted to a place of safety or returned to their homes. If they’re captured as prisoners of war, then once hostilities have ended they can be exchanged for Muslim prisoners, or simply released freely. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2015, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741/758 "2015-09-24T14:23:13Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > and what if they don’t cease? cease disbelieving? From the context (there’s that word again), it appears to mean “cease attacking”. That is, it’s ok or even mandatory to kill your attackers, but if they surrender, show them mercy and forgiveness as Allah would. Again, not a scholar of the subject, but that’s what I get from the text. ---
**Author:** ![A\_isha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@A\_isha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/A_isha)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2015, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741/759 "2015-09-24T14:23:27Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > No, I’m not ignoring 2&3, I have no problem with 2&3. > > I HAVE A VERY BIG PROBLEM WITH 1&4. Why? Not only is it a standard “fight back against those who attack you until they stop attacking you” statement, it isn’t even talking about you or people like you. It’s like getting freaked out about what the American military might do to you tomorrow because of their demands for unconditional surrender of Germany in World War II. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2015, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741/760 "2015-09-24T14:25:51Z")
> [@A\_isha](#): > > And that still represents a _minority_ of Muslims. Ok, 20% of the people in a predominantly Muslim country supporting the death penalty Stoning) for all major infractions is a pretty sizable minority. Pretty scary. Very, very scary actually. > [@](#): > > You certainly haven’t evinced that in any of your posts in this thread. No, I have not > [@](#): > > Per the Qur’an, the polytheists who surrender are to be escorted to a place of safety or returned to their homes. If they’re captured as prisoners of war, then once hostilities have ended they can be exchanged for Muslim prisoners, or simply released freely. What about the polytheists who don’t want to surrender? ---
**Author:** ![A\_isha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@A\_isha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/A_isha)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2015, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741/761 "2015-09-24T14:28:52Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > Ok, 20% of the people in a predominantly Muslim country supporting the death penalty Stoning) for all major infractions is a pretty sizable minority. Pretty scary. Very, very scary actually. It’s definitely problematic, particularly for the people in those countries, but the only reason to find it “scary” if you’re an American is, well, _literal_ Islamophobia. > [@](#): > > What about the polytheists who don’t want to surrender? You _do_ know how wars work, right? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741.md?page=37) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741.md?page=39)