# If radical Islam is violent due to culture and not religion **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 11, 2015, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741 "2015-09-11T23:24:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 39
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2015, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741/762 "2015-09-24T14:30:16Z")
> [@A\_isha](#): > > Why? Not only is it a standard “fight back against those who attack you until they stop attacking you” statement, it isn’t even talking about you or people like you. > > It’s like getting freaked out about what the American military might do to you tomorrow because of their demands for unconditional surrender of Germany in World War II. What? Are you saying, definitively, not your opinion, but Mohammed’s opinion is that an infidel/unbeliever/polytheist should NEVER be harmed unless it is in direct defense against an attack. In other words, death to the infidel is a COMPLETE FALSEHOOD? ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2015, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741/763 "2015-09-24T14:32:16Z")
> [@A\_isha](#): > > It’s definitely problematic, particularly for the people in those countries, but the only reason to find it “scary” if you’re an American is, well, _literal_ Islamophobia. No, I mean it would be a scary place to live. > [@](#): > > What about the polytheists who don’t want to surrender?..You _do_ know how wars work, right? What is that supposed to mean? That almost sounds like you are saying it is OK to make war against Polytheists? ---
**Author:** ![A\_isha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@A\_isha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/A_isha)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2015, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741/764 "2015-09-24T14:45:27Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > Are you saying, definitively, not your opinion, but Mohammed’s opinion is that an infidel/unbeliever/polytheist should NEVER be harmed unless it is in direct defense against an attack. I can only give you my opinion and the opinions of scholars. > [@](#): > > In other words, death to the infidel is a COMPLETE FALSEHOOD? As you’ve been presenting it, yes it is. > [@Robert163](#): > > No, I mean it would be a scary place to live. There are lots of places that would be scary to live in, and only a few of them are Muslim. So why are you so obsessed with the Muslim ones, particularly since you _don’t_ live in any of them? > [@](#): > > What is that supposed to mean? It means that the _surah_s you keep quoting are part of a declaration of hostilities between two polities. It wasn’t a “hey you, individual Muslim, go out and find a random individual unbeliever to kill” command. It was a “we, the Muslims of the city-state of Medina, are now in a state of open conflict with the polytheist rulers of the city-state of Mecca” declaration. It was, in other words, a _war_, and in war the two sides (and the combatants of the two sides) fight each other until one or the other wins or a truce is declared. > [@](#): > > That almost sounds like you are saying it is OK to make war against Polytheists? Are you asking me if I think the Medinans’ declaration of war against the Meccans was justified? ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2015, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741/765 "2015-09-24T14:59:03Z")
> [@A\_isha](#): > > I can only give you my opinion and the opinions of scholars. > > As you’ve been presenting it, yes it is. > > There are lots of places that would be scary to live in, and only a few of them are Muslim. So why are you so obsessed with the Muslim ones, particularly since you _don’t_ live in any of them? > > It means that the _surah_s you keep quoting are part of a declaration of hostilities between two polities. It wasn’t a “hey you, individual Muslim, go out and find a random individual unbeliever to kill” command. It was a “we, the Muslims of the city-state of Medina, are now in a state of open conflict with the polytheist rulers of the city-state of Mecca” declaration. It was, in other words, a _war_, and in war the two sides (and the combatants of the two sides) fight each other until one or the other wins or a truce is declared. Ok, it is almost 11AM here but I stay up and sleep all day many days. So I may not have time for a response, although, I will be here for another short while, not a long while. 1- If those are wartime passages and wartime passages only, if that is truly what those passages mean, then I am interested in learning more, learning abut how I am wrong or how I may be wrong. Can you provide any objective account that says that? because all I can find on the internet are anti-Islamic web sites or Muslim apologist websites. 2- Mohammed was a bandit right? Mohammed was a slave trader right? Mohammed owned slaves, right? can you see how, if all three of these statements are facts, I find it very very hard to believe that Mohammed was a man of peace or that Islam is a religion of peace. 3- I thank you for hanging in there and talking with me about this. I realize that my position and my opinion of your religion must be very frustrating. I realize that for me to equate you and most people like you, most muslims, to equate you to these negative topics is rude and frustrating to hear. Please understand, my problem is with some fundamental problems I see in in the Koran and that perception is born out by how I see life is in countries that have a strong tradition of Sharia Law, as in, Laws from the Koran. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2015, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741/766 "2015-09-24T15:03:58Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > oh > > well, ok, let’s narrow the focus a bit: > > And kill them wherever you overtake them [Psalm 18:37-42](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Psalm+18%3A37-42&version=NIV) > [@](#): > > 37 I pursued my enemies and overtook them; > I did not turn back till they were destroyed. > > 38 I crushed them so that they could not rise; > they fell beneath my feet. > > 39 You armed me with strength for battle; > you humbled my adversaries before me. > > 40 You made my enemies turn their backs in flight, > and I destroyed my foes. > > 41 They cried for help, but there was no one to save them— > to the Lord, but he did not answer. > > 42 I beat them as fine as windblown dust; > I trampled them like mud in the streets. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2015, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741/767 "2015-09-24T15:05:08Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > So I may not have time for a response And now he’s completed the classic SDMB trifecta, as though his earlier “accomplishments” in this thread weren’t clear enough for you folks. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2015, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741/768 "2015-09-24T15:06:48Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > And now he’s completed the classic SDMB trifecta, as though his earlier “accomplishments” in this thread weren’t clear enough for you folks. Hey Monty! Thank you for your comments. It is nice to know that you are - still - paying attention. ---
**Author:** ![A\_isha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@A\_isha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/A_isha)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2015, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741/769 "2015-09-24T15:23:28Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > Ok, it is almost 11AM here but I stay up and sleep all day many days. So I may not have time for a response, although, I will be here for another short while, not a long while. Get some rest, I’ll still be here! 🙂 > [@](#): > > 1- If those are wartime passages and wartime passages only, if that is truly what those passages mean, then I am interested in learning more, learning abut how I am wrong or how I may be wrong. Can you provide any objective account that says that? because all I can find on the internet are anti-Islamic web sites or Muslim apologist websites. Here are some not-too-expensive scholarly works on the subject of Muhammad’s life and warfare in Islam: The First Muslims: History and Memory [The Lives of Muhammad](http://www.amazon.com/The-Lives-Muhammad-Kecia-Ali/dp/0674050606/ref=pd_sim_14_4?ie=UTF8&refRID=1W9PP8T8ZRA8ZC06JQVM&dpID=51tjAzwd96L&dpSrc=sims&preST=_AC_UL160_SR106%2C160_) [Striving in the Path of God: Jihad and Martyrdom in Islamic Thought](http://www.amazon.com/Striving-Path-God-Martyrdom-Islamic/dp/0199730938/ref=sr_1_3?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1443107024&sr=1-3) The Islamic Law of War: Justifications and Regulations > [@](#): > > 2- Mohammed was a bandit right? Mohammed was a slave trader right? Mohammed owned slaves, right? Yes, but that was true of all the leaders of all the factions in the Medinan/Meccan war. Caravan raids, carried out by Meccans, Medinans, and their respective allied tribes, were mostly how such conflicts were waged. Same thing with slavery (and I note that Muhammad said more about improving the lot and treatment of slaves than Jesus, who also lived in an environment and culture of endemic slavery, ever did). > [@](#): > > can you see how, if all three of these statements are facts, I find it very very hard to believe that Mohammed was a man of peace or that Islam is a religion of peace. Because Muhammad and Islam represented an improvement over the status quo in 7th Century Arabia, particularly when it came to the interminable intertribal conflicts that were being waged. > [@](#): > > 3- I thank you for hanging in there and talking with me about this. I realize that my position and my opinion of your religion must be very frustrating. I realize that for me to equate you and most people like you, most muslims, is rude and frustrating to hear. Please understand, my problem is with some fundamental problems I see in in the Koran and that perception is born out by how I see life is in countries that have a strong tradition of Sharia Law, as in, Laws from the Koran. I honestly appreciate that! (Though just to nitpick _shari’ah_ isn’t really “laws from the Qur’an” - there are a _lot_ of sources of Islamic law beyond just the Qur’an. :)) ---
**Author:** ![Salvor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Salvor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Salvor)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2015, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741/770 "2015-09-24T15:52:51Z")
> [@A\_isha](#): > > Since you are not a Qurayshi polytheist living in 7th century Mecca, that verse does not apply to you. Does it apply to Hindus? Yazidis? Atheists? Zoroastrians? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2015, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741/771 "2015-09-24T15:53:27Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > No, I’m not ignoring 2&3, I have no problem with 2&3. > > I HAVE A VERY BIG PROBLEM WITH 1&4. 1 and 4 are modified by 2 and 3, and can’t be understood without them. As modified, they seem like pretty standard “defend yourself” and “treat those who surrender with mercy” kinds of teachings. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2015, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741/772 "2015-09-24T16:09:00Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > 1 and 4 are modified by 2 and 3, and can’t be understood without them. As modified, they seem like pretty standard “defend yourself” and “treat those who surrender with mercy” kinds of teachings. And probably quite-forward thinking for their time; compare to the (much older) excerpt from Psalms above, where there’s no mention of mercy or surrender for those who cry for help or turn and run - only extermination. ---
**Author:** ![A\_isha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@A\_isha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/A_isha)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2015, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741/773 "2015-09-24T16:14:54Z")
> [@Salvor](#): > > Does it apply to Hindus? Yazidis? Atheists? Zoroastrians? No, no, no, and no. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2015, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741/774 "2015-09-24T17:05:30Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > Hey Monty! Thank you for your comments. It is nice to know that you are - still - paying attention. Actually, while I don’t speak for him, I think you may have misunderstood what he meant. I suspect he’s saying that while your arguments can be fairly described as stupid and offensive, more appropriate terms would be “banal” and “trite”. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2015, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741/775 "2015-09-24T17:11:51Z")
> [@Salvor](#): > > Does it apply to Hindus? Yazidis? Atheists? Zoroastrians? Theoretically yes, but in practice, no to any of them. The Zoroastrians are one of the protected and recognized religions of Iran, the Muslim conquerors of the Asian sub Continent accorded Dhimmi status to Hindus, and I’m not aware of the Yazidis getting treated differently than other religious minorities in Medieval Iraq. As for atheists, they’ve never really been an organized group and while openly professing to be one in ancient times would certainly not have been a good idea, since their was basically a society-wide denial of their existence, so long as you never raised a stink nothing happened to you. Obviously, Muslim extremists don’t feel that way and do favor them being exterminated but historically, other Muslim groups not recognized as Muslims because of when they came about, such as the Ahmadis were, to the best of my knowledge treated worse. Aisha or Tamerlan might be better to spread light on the subject. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2015, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741/776 "2015-09-24T20:13:13Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > And this will matter when they actually - start- stoning people to death for homosexuality And yet a billion Muslims do not kill infidels, and you refuse to take that into account. “Islam orders believers to kill infidels.” But that doesn’t happen; the huge majority of Muslims have never killed anyone. Why do you keep ignoring this fundamental fact? ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2015, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741/777 "2015-09-24T21:23:37Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > And yet a billion Muslims do not kill infidels, and you refuse to take that into account. > > “Islam orders believers to kill infidels.” > > But that doesn’t happen; the huge majority of Muslims have never killed anyone. > > Why do you keep ignoring this fundamental fact? Why? Because it doesn’t fit his prejudices. ---
**Author:** ![Stringbean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Stringbean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stringbean)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2015, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741/778 "2015-09-24T22:37:31Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > :rolleyes::rolleyes: > > Tired of watching your opinions trashed with facts and logic, I suppose. I didn’t know a roll of the eyes were a rebuttal to a religious concept of war ingrained in Islamic cultures since the inception of the religion. Did the culture make up Jihad and Islam is ancillary? Really? Or is it that peaceful Muslims ignore the call to Jihad and have re-framed it into a (historically incongruous) “spiritual struggle?” Jihad has always been interpreted (up until very recently) to mean a call to religious war against non-believers, hasn’t it? Is there a shred of intellectual integrity in you to acknowledge this? You keep rolling your eyes at ugly truths and eventually you attain the blindness you seek. ---
**Author:** ![A\_isha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@A\_isha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/A_isha)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2015, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741/779 "2015-09-24T22:47:07Z")
> [@Stringbean](#): > > Or is it that peaceful Muslims ignore the call to Jihad and have re-framed it into a (historically incongruous) “spiritual struggle?” > > Jihad has always been interpreted (up until very recently) to mean a call to religious war against non-believers, hasn’t it? Is there a shred of intellectual integrity in you to acknowledge this? Nope and nope. I suggest you read the two books on the subject that I recommended upthread. > [@](#): > > You keep rolling your eyes at ugly truths and eventually you attain the blindness you seek. Physician, heal thyself. ---
**Author:** ![Stringbean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Stringbean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stringbean)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2015, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741/780 "2015-09-24T22:58:57Z")
Then let’s re-phrase it as a “call to militarism in defense of Islam.” Which, per the Muslim Brotherhood and numerous other Islamist organizations, can be interpreted as anything but defensive. Characterize it as extremist or radical, but it is a concept borne of Islam and one which has specifically been used to justify violence against others. It still does so, even today. Which is the problem. Not to be erroneously blamed on “culture.” ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2015, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741/781 "2015-09-24T22:59:13Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > Can we please reduce this to a simple yes or no for each variable? I’m not talking about the way Fred interprets it, or Tom, or even Steve. Does the Koran make the following 4 statements: > > 1- Muslim men can keep women as sex slaves > 2- Muslim men can beat disobedient wives > 3- Muslim men can divorce a woman at will > 4- Muslim men can have up to 4 wives 1. No. 2. Yes. 3. Yes, and Muslim wives can divorce their husbands at will. 4. Yes, provided that the husband is able to provide each wife equally in food, clothing, shelter, and sexual satisfaction. (Polygyny was pretty much the way of the world before the Romans decided to embrace monogamy and the Christians borrowed the idea. Islam set a limit on it so that a man could not collect dozens of wives, neglecting most of them.)u [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741.md?page=38) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741.md?page=40)