# If radical Islam is violent due to culture and not religion **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 11, 2015, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741 "2015-09-11T23:24:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 40
**Author:** ![A\_isha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@A\_isha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/A_isha)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2015, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741/782 "2015-09-24T23:08:06Z")
> [@Stringbean](#): > > Then let’s re-phrase it as a “call to militarism in defense of Islam.” It’s not that either. > [@](#): > > Which, per the Muslim Brotherhood and numerous other Islamist organizations, can be interpreted as anything but defensive. And all of those organizations were created in the 20th Century and rejected the mainstream Sunni and Shia interpretations (that is, in fact, _why_ they were created, because the interpretations of their founders were so different from the traditional, historical interpretations - Qutb’s _Milestones_, for instance, is one long angry rant about how pretty much every other Muslim and Islamic scholar on the planet is wrong, and only _he_ is right). ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2015, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741/783 "2015-09-24T23:16:33Z")
> [@Stringbean](#): > > I didn’t know a roll of the eyes were a rebuttal to a religious concept of war ingrained in Islamic cultures since the inception of the religion. > > Did the culture make up Jihad and Islam is ancillary? Really? > > Or is it that peaceful Muslims ignore the call to Jihad and have re-framed it into a (historically incongruous) “spiritual struggle?” > > Jihad has always been interpreted (up until very recently) to mean a call to religious war against non-believers, hasn’t it? Is there a shred of intellectual integrity in you to acknowledge this? > > You keep rolling your eyes at ugly truths and eventually you attain the blindness you seek. The monstrous lie that jihad means holy war was trounced on this board over a dozen years ago. It can be used that way by al Qaeda and ISIS, but anyone who tries to claim that that is “the meaning” of the word displays nothing but a hatred fueled ignorance. Rolling eyes at your nonsense equation is the most polite response it deserves. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2015, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741/784 "2015-09-24T23:23:40Z")
> [@Stringbean](#): > > Then let’s re-phrase it as a “call to militarism in defense of Islam.” > > Which, per the Muslim Brotherhood and numerous other Islamist organizations, can be interpreted as anything but defensive. > > Characterize it as extremist or radical, but it is a concept borne of Islam and one which has specifically been used to justify violence against others. > > It still does so, even today. Which is the problem. Not to be erroneously blamed on “culture.” If by “culture”, you mean “material factors”, they can absolutely be blamed for radical Islamism. Look at the Muslim Brotherhood - it was started to oppose British colonial exploitation of Egypt, with Islamism pitched as an easy solution to difficult, but real, social problems. No colonialism, no Muslim Brotherhood. ---
**Author:** ![Stringbean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Stringbean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stringbean)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2015, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741/785 "2015-09-24T23:38:15Z")
And using a centuries-old term classically-synonymous with religious military obligation does not defuse the term itself. It just packages the term in a new box. ---
**Author:** ![A\_isha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@A\_isha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/A_isha)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2015, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741/786 "2015-09-24T23:53:24Z")
> [@Stringbean](#): > > a centuries-old term classically-synonymous with religious military obligation Once again, nope. I _really_ recommend that you read at least those two works I mentioned above. It will help you immensely. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2015, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741/787 "2015-09-25T01:23:02Z")
A good parallel, I think, is the Marxist terminology of “struggle”. For most of history, such “class struggle” was almost invariably violent, as the victims did not have the political means to carry on their “struggle”. But parliamentary conflict without a drop of blood spilled is still “struggle”. I have even heard some rather devout Marxists refer to arguing over fine points of Leninist theory as a “struggle”. Similar with _jihad_, it can mean something entirely personal, as one seeks a closer communion with Allah. It can be interactive, correcting someone else’s misunderstanding and/or ignorance. Or it can mean a violent conflict. “Can” being the operative word. But it ain’t necessarily so. Cecilians have declared _jihad_ on ignorance. We have yet to develop a radical and paramilitary cadre. ---
**Author:** ![Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slow_moving_vehicle/32/291_2.png) [@Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slow_Moving_Vehicle)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2015, 4:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741/788 "2015-09-25T04:10:29Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Dachau was a work camp rather than an extermination camp. Many people were murdered there, but it was not set up specifically to kill people. > The actual extermination camps such as Auschwitz were set up outside Germany. The level of specific knowledge that the majority of German people had of the extermination camps is debated, but the fact that the extermination camps were outside the German borders has been put forth as a reason why the general populace was purported to be unaware of the events that occurred there. Well, yeah, but that’s kinda irrelevant, isn’t it? I was responding to **madsircool** ’s ridiculous assertion that the Holocaust took place outside of Germany. Dachau may not have been a death camp, but [41,500 people were killed there](https://www.kz-gedenkstaette-dachau.de/index-e.html); [the crematoria ran twenty-four hours](https://www.kz-gedenkstaette-dachau.de/stop11.html); [medical experiments were performed on prisoners there](https://www.kz-gedenkstaette-dachau.de/stop10.html); [as well as outright torture.](https://www.kz-gedenkstaette-dachau.de/stop06.html) Even if the local Bavarians didn’t know exactly what was happening in Dachau, they must have noticed the 200,000 who passed through on their way to the camp, and knew that it was unsafe to be a Jew, Jehovah’s Witness, gay, Roma, or dissident in Germany at the time. I understand the point you were making, and will concede that ordinary Germans probably had no conception of the lengths the NSDAP went to extirpate the “_Untermenschen_”, but really, to say that the Shoah only occurred in the death camps is ludicrous. ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2015, 9:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741/789 "2015-09-25T09:00:55Z")
> [@Stringbean](#): > > Or is it that peaceful Muslims ignore the call to Jihad and have re-framed it into a (historically incongruous) “spiritual struggle?” Funny to always see such claims about history from those who do not know it but advance ignorance and false information confidently. In fact jihad, the greater jihad of the spiritual improvement is a concept and the meaning that is a thousand years old. It is not a new package. It is an ancient one that is the emphasis of the sufi paths for hundreds of years. Of course the verb that is the root and is transparent to any arabic speaker, it is the ordinary verb and the ordinary noun for “to strive to do something.” The word I use in every day speech for efforts, jahood… the verb, jahada. The act of reasoning and the rational analysis, i **j** ti **had**. These are all meanings transparent to the arabic speaker. The primary meaning is not in any way warring, despite the ignorance. so much for the struggle against ignorance. ---
**Author:** ![Hank\_Beecher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hank_beecher/32/7275_2.png) [@Hank\_Beecher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hank_Beecher)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2015, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741/790 "2015-09-25T15:48:36Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > 1. Yes, provided that the husband is able to provide each wife equally in…sexual satisfaction. Cite? ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2015, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741/791 "2015-09-25T16:10:29Z")
> [@Hank\_Beecher](#): > > Cite? Seriously? Ask any Marja. Husbands are slower to have up to four wives but they must provide for each equally and are for each equally. Obviously this is extremely difficult if not impossible which is why most modern Muslim clerics in the West object to it. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2015, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741/792 "2015-09-25T17:22:21Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Cecilians have declared _jihad_ on ignorance. We have yet to develop a radical and paramilitary cadre. Oh, so _that’s_ why we’ve yet to see you at the training range ! We’ll get you on the mailing list ASAP. ---
**Author:** ![Hank\_Beecher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hank_beecher/32/7275_2.png) [@Hank\_Beecher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hank_Beecher)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2015, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741/793 "2015-09-25T19:39:27Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Seriously? > > Ask any Marja. Yeah, that’s not a cite. I have never seen any text in the Quran or any Hadith that says anything whatsoever about female sexual satisfaction, and have the impression from reading essays by exmuslims that I have not run across them because they do not exist. Maybe they do. If they do exist I would like to be directed to them with a citation. > [@](#): > > Obviously this is extremely difficult if not impossible which is why most modern Muslim clerics in the West object to it. If it is so obvious then why do you have to qualify your statement in such a way? If it was so obvious I don’t think you would have to limit your assertion to most “modern” clerics in “the West”. ---
**Author:** ![A\_isha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@A\_isha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/A_isha)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2015, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741/794 "2015-09-25T20:37:44Z")
> [@Hank\_Beecher](#): > > Yeah, that’s not a cite. > > I have never seen any text in the Quran or any Hadith that says anything whatsoever about female sexual satisfaction, and have the impression from reading essays by exmuslims that I have not run across them because they do not exist. Maybe they do. If they do exist I would like to be directed to them with a citation. [http://www.mydeenislam.com/how-to-make-love-to-your-wife-in-islam.html](http://www.mydeenislam.com/how-to-make-love-to-your-wife-in-islam.html) ---
**Author:** ![Hank\_Beecher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hank_beecher/32/7275_2.png) [@Hank\_Beecher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hank_Beecher)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2015, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741/795 "2015-09-25T21:05:09Z")
> [@A\_isha](#): > > [http://www.mydeenislam.com/how-to-make-love-to-your-wife-in-islam.html](http://www.mydeenislam.com/how-to-make-love-to-your-wife-in-islam.html) There is nothing cited there that discusses female sexual fulfillment directly. I guess you could say it as an implication of the general love and kindness that is commanded, but that is quite a stretch. It is good of the author of the page to put forth the effort to make the argument nonetheless. ---
**Author:** ![A\_isha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@A\_isha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/A_isha)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2015, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741/796 "2015-09-25T21:15:48Z")
> [@Hank\_Beecher](#): > > There is nothing cited there that discusses female sexual fulfillment directly. Really? > [@](#): > > Foreplay between the spouses before actually engaging into sexual intercourse is immensely important (especially for the wife) and a vital ingredient for a happy and prosperous marriage, that which should never be neglected. The husband should sexually arouse his wife before having sex (Oral Sex). It is indeed selfish on the husband’s part that he fulfils his sexual needs and desires, whilst his wife remains unsatisfied and discontented. Failure in satisfying the wife can have terrible consequences on one’s marriage. Thats why the prophet forbade sexual intercouse without foreplay, to guarantee and to protect the sexual pleasures and rights of the wife in bed. > > […] > > In Islam it is a women’s right to be satisfied by her husband in bed. Islam stresses the importance of mutual sexual satisfaction between marriage partners in the following Quranic verse: Permitted to you, on the night of the fasts, is the approach to your wives. They are your garments and ye are their garments. Allah knoweth what ye used to do secretly among yourselves; but He turned to you and forgave you; so now associate with them, and seek what Allah Hath ordained for you……(Quran:2:187) > > […] > > So we clearly see that the sahaba (companions of the prophet) understood that during sexual intercouse each spouse has to be a resort for the other ( by satisfying each others sexuel needs, just like a garment brings comfort and satisfaction) Because that sure looks to me like it very clearly, directly, and _explicitly_ talks about the fulfillment of women’s sexual needs in marriage. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2015, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741/797 "2015-09-25T21:32:12Z")
A married man who takes the time and patience to learn the arts of husbandry is just flat out gonna have a happier life. As well, if one is inclined to plural marriage, she is more likely to be cool about it if there’s plenty to go around. Plus, someone to talk with behind your back, about what a hopeless doofus you are… (Ought to teach it to boys in middle school. Watch porn, take notes. As homework, not in class, that would lead to…problems. Standing up and walking out, for instance…) ---
**Author:** ![Hank\_Beecher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hank_beecher/32/7275_2.png) [@Hank\_Beecher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hank_Beecher)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2015, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741/798 "2015-09-25T22:24:04Z")
> [@A\_isha](#): > > Really? > > Because that sure looks to me like it very clearly, directly, and _explicitly_ talks about the fulfillment of women’s sexual needs in marriage. That webpage does, but the [verse it cites](http://quran.com/2/187) does not. It gives men the permission to have sex with their wives at night during Ramadan. It refers to men and women as each others garments, which according to one of many [tafsirs](http://www.altafsir.com/Tafasir.asp?tMadhNo=1&tTafsirNo=74&tSoraNo=2&tAyahNo=187&tDisplay=yes&UserProfile=0&LanguageId=2) is “a metaphor for their embraces or their need for one another”. But it doesn’t refer to female sexual desire at all, let alone announce a religious obligation on the part of the husband to satisfy it. While the same texts are not at all shy about referring about male sexual desire and it’s fulfillment,[for example](http://www.usc.edu/org/cmje/religious-texts/hadith/bukhari/004-sbt.php#001.004.232): > [@](#): > > Volume 1, Book 4, Number 233: > Narrated 'Aisha: > I used to wash the semen off the clothes of the Prophet and even then I used to notice one or more spots on them. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2015, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741/799 "2015-09-25T22:30:06Z")
> [@Hank\_Beecher](#): > > Yeah, that’s not a cite. > > I have never seen any text in the Quran or any Hadith that says anything whatsoever about female sexual satisfaction, and have the impression from reading essays by exmuslims that I have not run across them because they do not exist. Maybe they do. If they do exist I would like to be directed to them with a citation. It’s definitely the practice in West Africa. Men are, without exception, expected to provide for their wives exactly equally. And a part of this is that they are expected to spend the night at each wife’s house in a rotation. To spend multiple nights with one wife would be an enormous no-no, leading to discord in the household and scorn in the neighborhood. I had a friend who was married to two women- one was a political match with a noblewoman from his village and the other a love marriage. He was always deeply torn because he had no interest in his arranged spouse- causing him to feel terrible about the whole thing. These communities often aren’t particularly shy about sex, either. Among married ladies, the conversations can get quite bawdy. Women are often considered to be the more lustful sex, with men as the calm and cool headed ones. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2015, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741/800 "2015-09-26T01:34:02Z")
> [@A\_isha](#): > > Yes, there’s nothing there about infidels, so you had to go digging and cherrypicking to find something else to try and prop up your position on Islam, since your existing arguments certainly aren’t cutting it and are getting torn to pieces. Here’s the problem, the 20,000 people who were torn to pieces by a religion (this year alone) were killed in the name of Islam. There are no religious comparisons to the fatwas on cartoons or other innocuous displays of ideas. I’ve posted examples of how the Christian religion is routinely made fun of without local riots let alone riots half way around the world. This is what the thread is about. The never ending, worldwide violence committed in the name of Islam. ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2015, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741/801 "2015-09-26T01:43:50Z")
Sad, yes, perhaps you can send teams of moto-parachutistes to suppress after the never-ended nation wide school shootings violances in your country are suppressed by these teams. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741.md?page=39) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741.md?page=41)