# If radical Islam is violent due to culture and not religion **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 11, 2015, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741 "2015-09-11T23:24:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 43
**Author:** ![A\_isha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@A\_isha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/A_isha)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2015, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741/842 "2015-09-28T20:32:51Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > He chased them from the temple with a whip > > What did he not do? Here is the list of things he did not do: > > Kill them > Steal from them > Rape then > Enslave them > Stone them to death That’s just moving the goalposts from “Jesus preached peace and was not violent at all” to “Jesus’ violence was different from Muhammad’s violence”. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2015, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741/843 "2015-09-28T21:01:28Z")
> [@A\_isha](#): > > That’s just moving the goalposts from “Jesus preached peace and was not violent at all” to “Jesus’ violence was different from Muhammad’s violence”. No, actually it is not. ---
**Author:** ![A\_isha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@A\_isha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/A_isha)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2015, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741/844 "2015-09-28T21:09:02Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > No, actually it is not. Jesus preached certain forms of violence, and actually committed other forms. The Old Testament is _full_ of violence. If “the holy figures and the scriptures of this religion are violent!” is your yardstick, then Islam and Christianity stand side-by-side with each other. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2015, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741/845 "2015-09-28T21:11:53Z")
> [@A\_isha](#): > > Jesus preached certain forms of violence, and actually committed other forms. The Old Testament is _full_ of violence. > > If “the holy figures and the scriptures of this religion are violent!” is your yardstick, then Islam and Christianity stand side-by-side with each other. Really? What, specifically, did Jesus command to do that was violent? ---
**Author:** ![A\_isha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@A\_isha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/A_isha)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2015, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741/846 "2015-09-28T21:28:53Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > Really? > > What, specifically, did Jesus command to do that was violent? “Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition? For God commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death. But ye say, Whosoever shall say to his father or his mother, It is a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; And honour not his father or his mother, he shall be free. Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition. Ye hypocrites!” (Matthew 15:3-7) Are you for the death penalty for children who curse their parents? Because Jesus was. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2015, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741/847 "2015-09-28T21:35:44Z")
[Jesus once killed almost everything on the Earth in a cataclysmic flood.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noah) Beat _that_, Mohammed! ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2015, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741/848 "2015-09-28T21:36:05Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > The reason why I make the point at all is the idea that fervent believers are going to follow the original text and actions of their primary figurehead more closely than marginal members of the religion. So, if violence is advocate in the text, or in action by the leader, that is a very very very bad example to set. And you simply ignore every fact that demonstrates that your hypothesis is nothing more than wishful thinking. Nothing in your claim has a factual basis and your insistence on acting as though there was any merit to it simply identifies you as one who places your own beliefs above facts and reality. ---
**Author:** ![Wolf333](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolf333/32/3460_2.png) [@Wolf333](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wolf333)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2015, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741/849 "2015-09-28T22:30:05Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > [Jesus once killed almost everything on the Earth in a cataclysmic flood.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noah) > > Beat _that_, Mohammed! Ha! Old Testament doesn’t count! ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2015, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741/850 "2015-09-28T22:37:36Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > Really? > > What, specifically, did Jesus command to do that was violent? Obey all the violent laws of the Old Testament: > [@Matthew 5:17-20](#): > > 17"Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill. 18"For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished. 19"Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I say to you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven. All that Old Testament barbarism (the stonings, the persecution of LGBT folks) you’re trying to specially plead away? Jesus endorsed all of it, and commanded others to abide by it. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2015, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741/851 "2015-09-28T23:26:26Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > And you simply ignore every fact that demonstrates that your hypothesis is nothing more than wishful thinking. Nothing in your claim has a factual basis and your insistence on acting as though there was any merit to it simply identifies you as one who places your own beliefs above facts and reality. fervent - having or displaying a passionate intensity. fundamentalism - is defined as strict adherence to some belief or ideology, especially in a religious context, or a form of Christianity where the Bible is taken literally and obeyed in full. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2015, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741/852 "2015-09-28T23:29:55Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > Obey all the violent laws of the Old Testament: > > All that Old Testament barbarism (the stonings, the persecution of LGBT folks) you’re trying to specially plead away? Jesus endorsed all of it, and commanded others to abide by it. hmmm… lets see what he actually said about death by stoning: The Adulterous Woman John 8 “He who is without sin among you, let him be the first to throw a stone at her.” [full passage](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John+8&version=NASB) ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2015, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741/853 "2015-09-28T23:42:53Z")
> [@A\_isha](#): > > “Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition? For God commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death. But ye say, Whosoever shall say to his father or his mother, It is a gift, by whatsoever thou mightiest be profited by me; And honour not his father or his mother, he shall be free. Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition. Ye hypocrites!” (Matthew 15:3-7) > > Are you for the death penalty for children who curse their parents? Because Jesus was. I wasn’t aware of that. So, you’ve proved me wrong. But that doesn’t make Mohammed any better. It just means I was wrong when I said Jesus never advocated violence. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2015, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741/854 "2015-09-28T23:48:33Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > fervent - having or displaying a passionate intensity… > [@](#): > > …The best lack all conviction, while the worst > Are full of passionate intensity… Yeats, _The Second Coming_ ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2015, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741/855 "2015-09-29T01:08:43Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > And some thousands of people died by gun violence in the U.S. So I’m sure you would favor treating the NRA exactly the same way you’re advocating treating Islam. Well. That’s an interesting post. Putting aside the obvious, guns are not violent. They’re inanimate objects. People are violent. This is a thread about a demographic group that is extremely violent and uses Islam as their guide. Moving on, when has the NRA ever sanctioned or suggested violence via guns or otherwise? The light of your post grows dimmer still. Finally, How exactly have I advocated the treatment of Islam? And for extra credit, how does it relate to the NRA besides radical Muslims using guns to kill people. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2015, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741/856 "2015-09-29T01:14:29Z")
> [@A\_isha](#): > > But spirituality really means a connection to the divine, an expansion of one’s self beyond the material, and is not tied to modern notions of “WWJD”. Except that’s exactly what it comes down to. What would Jesus or Buddha do versus what Mohammad would do. Radical Islam is doing what Mohammad would do. Therein lies the problem. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2015, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741/857 "2015-09-29T01:14:56Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > hmmm… lets see what he actually said about death by stoning: > > The Adulterous Woman > John 8 > > “He who is without sin among you, let him be the first to throw a stone at her.” > > [full passage](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John+8&version=NASB) And the stone was flung from the crowd That cracketh her skull, she dieth. And the Lord, sore wrought and vexed Cried out in a loud voice “_Dammit_, Mom!!” ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2015, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741/858 "2015-09-29T01:18:51Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > fervent - having or displaying a passionate intensity. > > fundamentalism - is defined as strict adherence to some belief or ideology, especially in a religious context, or a form of Christianity where the Bible is taken literally and obeyed in full. Nope. Still fails. There is no evidence that Saladin was in any way less fervent than Godfrey of Bouillon, yet Godfrey’s capture of Jerusalem was much different than Saladin’s. Beyond that, you have moved the goalposts: your post to which I linked made no mention of fundamentalism. In addition, your assertion of “marginal” members of a religion has no basis in fact when studying history; it is simply something you insert without evidence because you need it to rationalize your beliefs. You are, as you have done before, taking the fundy stance that only a literal interpretation of any scripture is the correct one–a point that is pretty much a new idea that only arose in either Christianity or Islam since the end of the eighteenth century. ---
**Author:** ![A\_isha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@A\_isha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/A_isha)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2015, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741/859 "2015-09-29T01:23:52Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Radical Islam is doing what Mohammad would do. Therein lies the problem. No, it’s not. As you can tell from the fact that the vast majority of Muslims don’t believe that, nor do scholars. In fact, the hallmark of the most violent radical Islamic fanatics is that they’re strikingly _un_educated in Islam. Osama bin Laden had no training or credentials whatsoever (he was a civil engineer who attended a secular school growing up). Nor do any of the Taliban (their very name, in fact, is a reference to their lack of education). Nor does ISIS’ leader (a former military officer under Saddam’s regime). Really, the most radical Muslims seem to be those who know the _least_ about Islam ---
**Author:** ![A\_isha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@A\_isha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/A_isha)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2015, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741/860 "2015-09-29T01:24:55Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > But that doesn’t make Mohammed any better. It also doesn’t make him any worse. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2015, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741/861 "2015-09-29T01:32:40Z")
> [@A\_isha](#): > > No, it’s not. As you can tell from the fact that the vast majority of Muslims don’t believe that, nor do scholars. > > In fact, the hallmark of the most violent radical Islamic fanatics is that they’re strikingly _un_educated in Islam. Osama bin Laden had no training or credentials whatsoever (he was a civil engineer who attended a secular school growing up). Nor do any of the Taliban (their very name, in fact, is a reference to their lack of education). Nor does ISIS’ leader (a former military officer under Saddam’s regime). > > Really, the most radical Muslims seem to be those who know the _least_ about Islam Add Sayyid Qutb to the mix. An American-trained engineer educated in western schools. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741.md?page=42) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741.md?page=44)