# If radical Islam is violent due to culture and not religion **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 11, 2015, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741 "2015-09-11T23:24:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 49
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2015, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741/962 "2015-09-30T03:19:18Z")
“Text” =/= “religion.” ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2015, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741/963 "2015-09-30T03:21:37Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > You’re doing this act on purpose, right? There is no text whatsoever–and never has been–that can cause a person to act one way or the other. Change text to flag and you’d be singing a different tune. ---
**Author:** ![MrQwertyasd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9d8465/32.png) [@MrQwertyasd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrQwertyasd)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2015, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741/964 "2015-09-30T03:39:21Z")
Interestingly - “As far as our meetings with the ISIL fighters were concerned, the discussions were very hard. I have read the Quran many times in German translation, and I always asked them about the value of mercy in Islam. I didn’t see any mercy in their behaviour. Something that I don’t understand at all is the enthusiasm in their plan of religious cleansing, planning to kill the non-believers… They also will kill Muslim democrats because they believe that non-ISIL-Muslims put the laws of human beings above the commandments of God. These were very difficult discussions, especially when they were talking about the number of people who they are willing to kill. They were talking about hundreds of millions. They were enthusiastic about it, and I just cannot understand that.” > **[HOME | Team Todenhöfer](https://www.teamtodenhoefer.de/?lang=en)** > > Wir sind eine politische Bewegung mutiger Menschen, die sich für Werte wie Respekt, Ehrlichkeit und Gerechtigkeit einsetzen. Wir stellen endlich den Menschen in seiner Vielfalt in den Mittelpunkt der Politik. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2015, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741/965 "2015-09-30T03:40:50Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Change text to flag and you’d be singing a different tune. I’ll bite. How so? ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2015, 3:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741/966 "2015-09-30T03:43:04Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > That is not what is being contested. The point at hand is can a religious text/religion make people worse than they would be without adherence to the text. . . . Until this is shown to be incorrect, at which point you’ll change the point again, and claim that Oceania has always been at war with Eastasia? Texts are independent of human virtue and violence. People can read the noblest, kindest, most saintly of books…and be violent stinkers, and people can read the nastiest, ugliest, evil-most of books…and be pretty decent people. You’re making the classic mistake of those who claim that video games “cause people to become violent.” You’re reasoning in contradiction to the real facts. Books don’t cause specific behaviors in people who read them, to any meaningful statistical degree of correlation. You continue to disregard the billion or so Muslims who aren’t violent. Why is this? ---
**Author:** ![MrQwertyasd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9d8465/32.png) [@MrQwertyasd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrQwertyasd)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2015, 3:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741/967 "2015-09-30T03:52:59Z")
Here Todenhofer tells how he argued face to face with ISIS soldiers that their interpretation of Islam is wrong. [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/YRCPRKgAaTg/maxresdefault.jpg "HARDtalk Jürgen Todenhöfer") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YRCPRKgAaTg) ---
**Author:** ![Hank\_Beecher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hank_beecher/32/7275_2.png) [@Hank\_Beecher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hank_Beecher)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2015, 4:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741/968 "2015-09-30T04:32:15Z")
> [@MrQwertyasd](#): > > Here Todenhofer tells how he argued face to face with ISIS soldiers that their interpretation of Islam is wrong. > > [https://youtu.be/YRCPRKgAaTg?t=13m57s](https://youtu.be/YRCPRKgAaTg?t=13m57s) Ah yes, the old [excommunicating terrorism](http://www.thefridaytimes.com/tft/excommunicating-terrorism/) trick. It doesn’t seem to be working. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2015, 5:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741/969 "2015-09-30T05:11:20Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Change text to flag and you’d be singing a different tune. You obviously do not know me. I’ve already posted on this site before my opinion of “flag worship” and the furor surround “flag desecration”. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2015, 7:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741/970 "2015-09-30T07:53:45Z")
> [@MrQwertyasd](#): > > These were very difficult discussions, especially when they were talking about the number of people who they are willing to kill. They were talking about hundreds of millions. They were enthusiastic about it, and I just cannot understand that." Obligatory cheap shot : dude, you’re German, you should be familiar with the general concept of relishing the prospect of mass murder :o ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2015, 8:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741/971 "2015-09-30T08:32:18Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > religion has no influence on people? Are you competing to be Robert163 or octopus? Nowhere did I say that religion has no influence. What I pointed out was a simple fact that a text cannot cause a human being to do something. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2015, 9:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741/972 "2015-09-30T09:43:08Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > That is not what is being contested. The point at hand is can a religious text/religion make people worse than they would be without adherence to the text. I will repeat my comments from before to see if you agree or disagree. I am about to go to sleep so most likely I will look for your response tomorrow, should you choose to answer. If possible, I don’t know if it would be possible for you, but, if possible, you could respond without doing either of the following: > > 1- Giving me another patronizing lecture > 2- Somehow changing the subject > > In other words, see if you can respond directly to the point that I am making. (The point is that religion (can) make bad people worse). Conflating religion with religious text is simply begging the question. I will not play that game. A specific religious movement, (Sufism _vs_ Wahhabism, for example), can certainly affect culture and politics. A specific religious text may inspire an individual’s beliefs. (As any text might inspire specific opinions or beliefs.) However, I see no evidence that a text, in and of itself, has the power to move large groups of people to do anything. For example, Lincoln famously commented to Harriet Stowe that her Uncle Tom’s Cabin was the source of the Civil War. However, it was not the simple publication of the book that led so many people to join or support the Abolitionist movement. It required existing Abolitionists to read the book, seizing its message, and recommending it to their acquaintances with the comment that _this is what slavery is like_ to get her message propagated through the land. You want to claim that the Qur’an, all by itself, promotes ISIS, yet to do that, you have to say that all the statements of violence, (every one of which was written in the context of defensive battles), has led the leaders of ISIS to launch a war of conquest in violation of the text, and at the same time has failed to motivate them to provide the respectful treatment of prisoners and captives that is explicit in the text. So which is it? If the book has some intrinsic power to promote violence, why does it not have the same intrinsic power to promote mercy and peace when the actual text dwells more on mercy and peace than it does on defensive violence? Why do you follow ISIS in cherry picking quoted text and then blame the entire text for your selective reading? ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2015, 10:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741/973 "2015-09-30T10:38:43Z")
Oh, come on, tomndebb; you already know the answer? The calls for violence are literal and have magical power, but the calls for peace are just window-dressing. At least that’s the evident level of…let’s call it reasoning of the person to whom you addressed your query. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2015, 10:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741/974 "2015-09-30T10:43:54Z")
Clearly **tomndebb** is just an apologist for reason and logic. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2015, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741/975 "2015-09-30T16:07:18Z")
Well, at least he’s sorry! ---
**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2015, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741/976 "2015-09-30T17:44:18Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > You want to claim that the Qur’an, all by itself, promotes ISIS, yet to do that, you have to say that all the statements of violence, (every one of which was written in the context of defensive battles), has led the leaders of ISIS to launch a war of conquest in violation of the text, and at the same time has failed to motivate them to provide the respectful treatment of prisoners and captives that is explicit in the text. I think a book like the Bible or the Koran can _influence_ people, and make it easier to act in a particular way. If a group of people are likely to become violent murderers for whatever cultural or economic reasons there are, having a book that they believe is the inerrant word of god that contains numerous passages that can easily be interpreted as being supportive of violent murdering just makes it more likely that they will become violent murderers. But it’s hard to see how that could be more than a minor factor, given how many different groups of people with varying levels of violence have claimed to follow the same holy book over the years. That said, arguments like “well, you’re misinterpreting that passage” are somewhat spurious. If there’s a sentence that says “When someone insults your God, you should take your sword and chop his head off”, then that sentence can and will be used as justification for beheading by violent people, even if every expert in the world honestly and justifiably will point out that in the larger context of the surrounding passages that sentence is clearly (a) metaphorical, or (b) satire, or (c) only applied to a specific group of enemies in 800 A.D. To the extent that **Robert163** is saying “the problem is that this particular holy work can be used as justification for violence, and that justification makes violence more likely”, a response of “yeah, but it’s _misinterpreting_ it to use is as a justification for violence” is pretty irrelevant. All of that said, I still don’t really see what Robert’s point is. Suppose he absolutely positively convinced us via dazzling knowledge and erudition that the Koran is 24% more violent than the Bible, and that it therefore has a 0.002% enhancing effect on potential Muslim extremists. Well? So what? What would that information actually do for us? Would that in any way change the way we treat any individual Muslim? ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2015, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741/977 "2015-09-30T18:38:23Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Conflating religion with religious text is simply begging the question. I will not play that game. > > A specific religious movement, (Sufism _vs_ Wahhabism, for example), can certainly affect culture and politics. > A specific religious text may inspire an individual’s beliefs. (As any text might inspire specific opinions or beliefs.) > However, I see no evidence that a text, in and of itself, has the power to move large groups of people to do anything. For example, Lincoln famously commented to Harriet Stowe that her Uncle Tom’s Cabin was the source of the Civil War. However, it was not the simple publication of the book that led so many people to join or support the Abolitionist movement. It required existing Abolitionists to read the book, seizing its message, and recommending it to their acquaintances with the comment that _this is what slavery is like_ to get her message propagated through the land. > > You want to claim that the Qur’an, all by itself, promotes ISIS, yet to do that, you have to say that all the statements of violence, (every one of which was written in the context of defensive battles), has led the leaders of ISIS to launch a war of conquest in violation of the text, and at the same time has failed to motivate them to provide the respectful treatment of prisoners and captives that is explicit in the text. > > So which is it? If the book has some intrinsic power to promote violence, why does it not have the same intrinsic power to promote mercy and peace when the actual text dwells more on mercy and peace than it does on defensive violence? Why do you follow ISIS in cherry picking quoted text and then blame the entire text for your selective reading? Not surprisingly, you failed completely on both accounts. _Could you respond without doing either of the following_: 1- Giving me another patronizing lecture 2- Somehow changing the subject _Conflating religion with religious text is simply begging the question. I will not play that game._… which is just a poorly worded way of saying, “You are right but I am too stubborn to admit it. Now, watch me change the subject and pretend like I answered you”. Look, I know you are not going to actually answer or address the point I am making, I get it, but just for my own satisfaction I’m going to post it - for the third time - here goes: The point is that religion (can) make bad people worse. Religion pushes the bad actions further than they would of done otherwise. Don’t like gays? Lot’s of people don’t. But hang out in a church every sunday that preaches hatred of gays, all biblicaly (mainly old testament) endorsed and what not, God and Jesus hates them as much as you do!!! Suddenly your discomfort towards gay people has actually increased geometrically… and turned into book certified hatred. I know it is difficult, to admit that the bible could actually make someone worse, but this intellectual rigor and cool objective logic you speak so highly of demands an honest assessment. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2015, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741/978 "2015-09-30T18:43:53Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > You want to claim that the Qur’an, all by itself, promotes ISIS, yet to do that, you have to say that all the statements of violence, (every one of which was written in the context of defensive battles), has led the leaders of ISIS to launch a war of conquest in violation of the text, and at the same time has failed to motivate them to provide the respectful treatment of prisoners and captives that is explicit in the text. Right. 100% spot on. The worst people take the worst parts of the text and focus on that which creates a fevered sense of radicalism that is dangerous and disruptive. They are free of course to only select the parts that support their violent or oppressive agenda. I’m not really concerned with the people who use the Koran for good purposes. They would still be good people without it. It will make lots of good people, better,ie it will make good people much better people, but, it also makes bad people much worse. Since good people will still be good without the Koran and bad people will be worse because of it, then overall it’s net effect is a negative one. ---
**Author:** ![A\_isha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@A\_isha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/A_isha)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2015, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741/979 "2015-09-30T18:53:01Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > _Conflating religion with religious text is simply begging the question. I will not play that game._… which is just a poorly worded way of saying, “You are right but I am too stubborn to admit it. Now, watch me change the subject and pretend like I answered you”. No it’s not. Go on, tell me the doctrinal differences between the Deobandi and the Barelvi by referencing only the Qur’an. Tell me the differences between the Roman Catholic Church and the Southern Baptists by referencing only the Bible. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2015, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741/980 "2015-09-30T18:55:53Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > The point is that religion (can) make bad people worse. Religion pushes the bad actions further than they would of done otherwise. Don’t like gays? Lot’s of people don’t. But hang out in a church every sunday that preaches hatred of gays, all biblicaly (mainly old testament) endorsed and what not, God and Jesus hates them as much as you do!!! Suddenly your discomfort towards gay people has actually increased geometrically… and turned into book certified hatred. Is there any evidence to back up this assertion? ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2015, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741/981 "2015-09-30T18:58:52Z")
> [@MaxTheVool](#): > > I think a book like the Bible or the Koran can _influence_ people, and make it easier to act in a particular way. If a group of people are likely to become violent murderers for whatever cultural or economic reasons there are, having a book that they believe is the inerrant word of god that contains numerous passages that can easily be interpreted as being supportive of violent murdering just makes it more likely that they will become violent murderers. > > But it’s hard to see how that could be more than a minor factor, given how many different groups of people with varying levels of violence have claimed to follow the same holy book over the years. > That said, arguments like “well, you’re misinterpreting that passage” are somewhat spurious. If there’s a sentence that says “When someone insults your God, you should take your sword and chop his head off”, then that sentence can and will be used as justification for beheading by violent people, even if every expert in the world honestly and justifiably will point out that in the larger context of the surrounding passages that sentence is clearly (a) metaphorical, or (b) satire, or (c) only applied to a specific group of enemies in 800 A.D. To the extent that **Robert163** is saying “the problem is that this particular holy work can be used as justification for violence, and that justification makes violence more likely”, a response of “yeah, but it’s _misinterpreting_ it to use is as a justification for violence” is pretty irrelevant. > > All of that said, I still don’t really see what Robert’s point is. Suppose he absolutely positively convinced us via dazzling knowledge and erudition that the Koran is 24% more violent than the Bible, and that it therefore has a 0.002% enhancing effect on potential Muslim extremists. Well? So what? What would that information actually do for us? Would that in any way change the way we treat any individual Muslim? I do not understand the revisionism either. Mohammed actually was a Thief, a Murderer, a Slave Trader, a Slave Owner and Misogynist. And he advocated a very violent system of punishment for people who broke the major tenets of his faith. The fact that he at some point, relaxed some of his more violent opinions via his political or military enemies is not really that impressive. It’s what he should of been doing from the beginning. And even if he did become less militant he was still a Misogynist. Still had contempt for infidels/unbelievers, who, as I am to understand, he never relaxed his violent proclamations in regards to this last group of people. I appreciate your comments. But I am genuinely bewildered when people want to talk about this great man of peace and message of peace. All you have to do to do that is ignore two things: 1- His actions 2- The literal words if the Koran PS- As to answer your question, how should I treat a Muslim if I meet them, well, I should treat them just like I treat anyone else. That is the way I acted when I lived in NYC. In the small town I live in now I don’t think there are any Muslims… well, not many, not very visible, I really don’t know. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741.md?page=48) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741.md?page=50)