# If radical Islam is violent due to culture and not religion **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 11, 2015, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741 "2015-09-11T23:24:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2015, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741/81 "2015-09-12T03:00:45Z")
> [@madsircool](#): > > Its hyperbole that fits well into this thread. Communism was officially athiestic. It had many true believers. And, like Naziism, its victims could do nothing to save themselves. Actually, honestly, it is hard for me to admit it but if I am being 100% honest I can not deny the overlap of communism and atheism ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2015, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741/82 "2015-09-12T03:02:30Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I’ll agree there is a pattern – there is a strong (but not nearly universal) correlation today between terrorism and Islam. But I’ll agree with your modified position, in general – this correlation is much less about the text of religious books, and much more about culture and politics. Generally, desperate people will be much more likely to do desperate things – wealthy and healthy people don’t risk themselves or their families for politics or religion, in general. So I think the modern correlation will change when and if these countries become safer, more prosperous, and more open and free. I don’t think a happy, healthy, and well-fed Iranian or Afghani or Pakistani person is significantly more likely to want to kill people or themselves than a happy, healthy, and well-fed American or Canadian. While I generally agree with your points its harder to explain the rich who fund the terror groups. Also WWII is a counterexample where 4 million otherwise wealthy and healthy Germans were more than happy to die fir the Fatherland. Humans are a strange bunch. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2015, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741/83 "2015-09-12T03:03:50Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > Actually, honestly, it is hard for me to admit it but if I am being 100% honest I can not deny the overlap of communism and atheism Atheism was incidental or even irrelevant to communism. In fact, many Jews in Germany (like my grandmother, who thankfully escaped with her family before it was too late) in the 1930s joined the German Communist party at the time because it was the political party that most opposed the Nazis. Atheists today are no more likely to have a political ideology in common with communism than Christians or Jews. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2015, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741/84 "2015-09-12T03:04:03Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I’ll agree there is a pattern – there is a strong (but not nearly universal) correlation today between terrorism and Islam. But I’ll agree with your modified position, in general – this correlation is much less about the text of religious books, and much more about culture and politics. Generally, desperate people will be much more likely to do desperate things – wealthy and healthy people don’t risk themselves or their families for politics or religion, in general. So I think the modern correlation will change when and if these countries become safer, more prosperous, and more open and free. I don’t think a happy, healthy, and well-fed Iranian or Afghani or Pakistani person is significantly more likely to want to kill people or themselves than a happy, healthy, and well-fed American or Canadian. A minor point, as pointed out by Sam Harris, sorry I can’t cite it but I heard him make the claim at least a few times/places… your average “freedom fighter” is most likely to be poor/oppressed hopeless/marginalized but suicide bombers often come from educated middle class dynamics. That is possibly another topic itself. Overall I see and agree to what you are saying. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2015, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741/85 "2015-09-12T03:05:13Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Atheism was incidental or even irrelevant to communism. In fact, many Jews in Germany (like my grandmother, who thankfully escaped with her family before it was too late) in the 1930s joined the German Communist party at the time because it was the political party that most opposed the Nazis. Atheists today are no more likely to have a political ideology in common with communism than Christians or Jews. Yes, but can you agree that “violent” communists had strong dislike for religion? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2015, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741/86 "2015-09-12T03:06:35Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > Yes, but can you agree that “violent” communists had strong dislike for religion? I’m sure many did – but this isn’t an indictment of atheism, any more than the violence of certain religious believers is an indictment of religion. ---
**Author:** ![Stringbean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Stringbean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stringbean)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2015, 3:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741/87 "2015-09-12T03:09:52Z")
Islam has a violent central figure and a militant underpinning (Jihad) which dates to that very prophet. Certainly, religion and culture influence one another. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2015, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741/88 "2015-09-12T03:10:35Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > If radical Islam is violent due to culture and not religion, then how come non muslims in the same area/regions of the Middle East/Africa/Asia aren’t blowing things up, beheading people, and stoning people? Set up a false dichotomy and you can ask any leading question you want. Clearly, there is an aspect of radical Islam that is, indeed, particularly violent. Asking whether it is the religion that causes this, (allowing one to then move toward claiming that all of Islam will be affected/infected by the same beliefs, making Islam more prone to such violence), is simply a polemic tactic that has little to do with understanding Islam, radical Islam, or the rest of the world. There are a number of issues that are generally not understood, (or deliberately ignored), in these discussions. Muslims, for example, recently have been or are being persecuted in several regions of the world–by Christians in Cote D’Ivoire and the Central African Republic, in the Philippines, and in Lebanon, by Orthodox Christians in the former Yugoslavia, by Hindus in several regions of India, by Buddhists in Sri Lanka and Burma/Myanmar, by (supposedly) non-religious (not sure how much of a role Orthodox Christianity played), in pre-revolt Chechnya, and “secular” Muslims in Iran and Indonesia. The Salafist/Wahhabist movement in the Arabian peninsula lucked into a significant source of funds with the development of the oil fields and began to export their particular brand of extremism–much as Marxists exported their brands of extremism to various places throughout the 20th century. And, just as the “communist rebels” developed their own ideologies that had nothing to do with anything written by Karl Marx, the Wahhabist movement has developed its own ideas separate from Islam as it was practiced anywhere prior to the late 18th century, (when the first Wahhabist ideology was created). European colonialism disrupted a number of Muslim societies and as the colonial powers lost their grips following WWII, the leaders of the Cold War were quite willing to step in and impose their own order–whether (usually authoritarian) “democracy” or “people’s socialism.” When the Cold War ended and the First and Second World nations stopped funding efforts to suppress movements of self-determination (including Islam) in various places, the Wahhabist movement was more than happy to provide the funds to ensure that any Muslim movements would follow their directions. Among the various aspects of the Wahhabists are the extreme religious conservatism espoused by Shaykh Muhammad ibn 'Abd al-Wahhab along with his particular views regarding governance. Wahhabism has also picked up the notion of reviving the Caliphate, which appeals to people who regard themselves, (often correctly) as having been oppressed. This is not much different than Hitler’s plan for a Third Reich or Mussolini’s _Venezia Giulia_, in which Italy claimed ownership of much of the Ancient Roman Empire. It is a way to promote unity by appealing to a glorious past that has no bearing on current reality. As to the violence, itself, it varies by numerous factors. Suicide bombing, for example, was not invented by Muslims, but by Hindu Tamil rebels in Sri Lanka. As noted, above, such things as honor killings, often described as Muslim tradition has occurred in one place or another in Christian, Hindu, and Buddhist societies. The current widespread violence in much of the Muslim world is more closely related to the way that Wahhabism is promoted as an empowering movement, much as exported marxism resulted in the _Khmer Rouge_ and _Sendero Luminoso_ or the way in which Fascism spread to various countries with local black shirt movements. There is clearly a religious element to the current violence, but it is a religious element that has very specific cultural, political, and historical aspects that render “religion or culture” a simplistic question that cannot provide a realistic answer. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2015, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741/89 "2015-09-12T03:12:48Z")
> [@Stringbean](#): > > Islam has a violent central figure and a militant underpinning (Jihad) which dates to that very prophet. > > Certainly, religion and culture influence one another. Most religions have some violent central figures in their texts, including Judaism and Christianity. God comes to mind – that dude did some awful stuff, according to the Bible and the Torah. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2015, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741/90 "2015-09-12T03:13:50Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Set up a false dichotomy and you can ask any leading question you want. Please stop pretending like there are 2 different versions of the Koran ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2015, 3:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741/91 "2015-09-12T03:25:20Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > . . . If you were an Atheist, an Infidel, a homosexual or a woman, which theocracy would you rather live in, one run by Muslims or one run by Janists? **Which** Muslims or Jains? Enlightened Muslims over fanatical Jains any day. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2015, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741/92 "2015-09-12T03:27:31Z")
> [@madsircool](#): > > . . . There isnt a consensus that the 30 Year War was a religious war . . . You’ve gotta be fukcing kidding! The war where Protestants murdered Catholics, and Catholics burned Protestant cities – and you imagine for one half a nanosecond it wasn’t about religion? Absolute bullshit. It was one of the world’s ugliest religious wars. ---
**Author:** ![Some\_Call\_Me.Tim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/439d5e/32.png) [@Some\_Call\_Me.Tim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Some_Call_Me.Tim)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2015, 4:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741/93 "2015-09-12T04:03:06Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > Well the I will accuse you of ignoring the sermon on the mount and pretty much 99% of everything Jesus had to say. His message was pacifist. It is not possible to spin it in any other direction. Whereas Mohammed not only called for war and slavery and violence, he participated in the same acts. > > So who’s ignoring stuff now? That would be you. Luke 19:27 “But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.” In what way is commanding one’s followers to gather the unbelievers before you and slay them the actions of a pacifist? Be nice to other believers, but gather the unbelievers before me and slay them… is not pacifism by any reasonable definition of the word. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2015, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741/94 "2015-09-12T04:09:43Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > **Which** Muslims or Jains? Enlightened Muslims over fanatical Jains any day. the average religious person running a theocracy ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2015, 4:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741/95 "2015-09-12T04:10:46Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > You’ve gotta be fukcing kidding! The war where Protestants murdered Catholics, and Catholics burned Protestant cities – and you imagine for one half a nanosecond it wasn’t about religion? > > Absolute bullshit. It was one of the world’s ugliest religious wars. That sounds like a religious war to me ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2015, 4:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741/96 "2015-09-12T04:17:03Z")
> [@Some\_Call\_Me.Tim](#): > > That would be you. > > Luke 19:27 “But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.” > > In what way is commanding one’s followers to gather the unbelievers before you and slay them the actions of a pacifist? > > Be nice to other believers, but gather the unbelievers before me and slay them… is not pacifism by any reasonable definition of the word. That one is a bit odd, isn’t it? I attribute that to a posthumous (assuming Jesus existed) addition made up by some one writing about Jesus. It does not match the tone/message of Jesus’s other parables. as a “parable” it sound s a little less threatening than a direct command but it is still a very odd and troubling [passage](http://biblehub.com/niv/luke/19.htm). ---
**Author:** ![glowacks](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/glowacks/32/5548_2.png) [@glowacks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glowacks)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2015, 4:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741/97 "2015-09-12T04:17:36Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > You’ve gotta be fukcing kidding! The war where Protestants murdered Catholics, and Catholics burned Protestant cities – and you imagine for one half a nanosecond it wasn’t about religion? > > Absolute bullshit. It was one of the world’s ugliest religious wars. Then why did Catholic France enter the war on the Protestant side? It was at least slightly about religion, but it was just as much about politics and it happened the two sides recently disagreed on religions. ---
**Author:** ![Some\_Call\_Me.Tim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/439d5e/32.png) [@Some\_Call\_Me.Tim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Some_Call_Me.Tim)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2015, 4:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741/98 "2015-09-12T04:22:44Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > That one is a bit odd, isn’t it? > > I attribute that to a posthumous (assuming Jesus existed) addition made up by some one writing about Jesus. It does not match the tone/message of Jesus’s other parables. as a “parable” it sound s a little less threatening than a direct command but it is still a very odd and troubling [passage](http://biblehub.com/niv/luke/19.htm). But that’s basically a No True Scotsman fallacy. You could make just about anyone look like a pacifist if you pick and choose only the nice things they are recorded to have said and claim the rest doesn’t count. Similarly, I’m sure that someone could look through a Koran and ignore the violent bits, saying that those parts were a posthumous addition, and conclude that Islam is a peaceful religion. That is exactly as valid as what you just did. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2015, 4:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741/99 "2015-09-12T04:31:19Z")
> [@Some\_Call\_Me.Tim](#): > > But that’s basically a No True Scotsman fallacy. You could make just about anyone look like a pacifist if you pick and choose only the nice things they are recorded to have said and claim the rest doesn’t count. > > Similarly, I’m sure that someone could look through a Koran and ignore the violent bits, saying that those parts were a posthumous addition, and conclude that Islam is a peaceful religion. That is exactly as valid as what you just did. Well, that entirely depends on whether you think: 1- Jesus really existed and really was the son of god, really was resurrected, every word he said was true, and everything he said was recorded accurately in the bible 2- Jesus was a wandering preacher whose words and deeds got recorded in the bible but are not the literal truth nor an exact literal account, but the bible (New Testament) is at least partly based on his words and deeds 3- Jesus was a wandering preacher whose words and deeds have largely been fictionalized 4- No such figure ever actually existed I vote for either 3 or 4, probably 3 but possibly 4. Needless to say this one passage in question is in contradiction to the rest of his “recorded” saying and that would give any historian reason to doubt the validity of that one passage. And, to your second part, no, there are many many passages where Mohammed commands violence and other forms of oppression. The extraneous exception to the overall body of sayings does not apply in that case. ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2015, 4:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741/100 "2015-09-12T04:31:51Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > You’ve gotta be fukcing kidding! The war where Protestants murdered Catholics, and Catholics burned Protestant cities – and you imagine for one half a nanosecond it wasn’t about religion? > > Absolute bullshit. It was one of the world’s ugliest religious wars. See above cite and try to look at it without the religious colored glasses. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741.md?page=6)