# If radical Islam is violent due to culture and not religion **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 11, 2015, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741 "2015-09-11T23:24:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 50
**Author:** ![MrQwertyasd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9d8465/32.png) [@MrQwertyasd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrQwertyasd)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2015, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741/982 "2015-09-30T19:00:02Z")
[https://www.rt.com/politics/317045-war-on-terror-is-sacred/](https://www.rt.com/politics/317045-war-on-terror-is-sacred/) > [@](#): > > ``` > A senior cleric of the Russian Orthodox Church has said his church fully supports Moscow’s plan to render military aid to the Syrian government. He added representatives of other major religions would throw their weight behind the anti-terrorist effort. > > ``` > > “_We have an inter-religious council in Russia and I can say with confidence – the coming statement of this body that unites Orthodox Christians, Muslims, Jews and Buddhists will support our state’s decision. The decision with which our state again assumes a special role in the Middle East and in particular in Syria_,” Vsevolod Chaplin told reporters on Wednesday. > “_The active position of our country has always been connected with protection of the weak and oppressed, like the Middle East Christians who are now experiencing a real genocide. Russia’s role has always been in protecting peace and justice for all Mideast peoples_.” > He stressed the main objective behind the operation in Syria was not in fulfilling some political or economic ambitions but in protecting the weak. “_Terrorism is immoral and we need to protect those who are being driven from their lands by war_,” Chaplin noted. > He also emphasized that terrorism was the most significant threat humanity is currently facing. “_Whatever they are trying to justify terrorism with, it cannot be justified. Thus, any fight against terrorism is moral, we can even call it a holy fight_,” Chaplin told reporters. So, the Holy fight endorsed by the church. The article didn’t say whether he gave a scriptural basis for this, but promises an upcoming statement involving Buddhists and Jews too. Check out the picture here - A Russian orthodox priest blesses a SU-27 SM fighter jet on the airfield of Belbek military airport > **[Russia in Syria: Air strikes on Homs are 'holy war against terrorism' says...](https://www.ibtimes.co.uk/russia-syria-air-strikes-are-holy-war-against-terrorism-says-russian-orthodox-church-1521847)** > > Russia's upper chamber approved use of military force against Isis. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2015, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741/983 "2015-09-30T19:00:24Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > Is there any evidence to back up this assertion? yes ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2015, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741/984 "2015-09-30T19:04:44Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > …Since good people will still be good without the Koran and bad people will be worse because of it, then overall it’s net effect is a negative one. Will good people be better people for focusing attention on the passages that urge mercy and tolerance? Would bad people be less so if they focused on the same passages? Can the effect be measured? Suppose someone measures out at 850 millicheneys, a pretty bad person. And we expose him exclusively to the passages that have so frightfully twisted your knickers? Would he increase his rating to 900 millicheneys, or maybe just 855? Outside of your fertile imagination and your, ah, expertise, can you offer us any reason why this would be so? ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2015, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741/985 "2015-09-30T19:04:54Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > yes That’s reassuring. I await the links. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2015, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741/986 "2015-09-30T19:06:27Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > yes Bring. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2015, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741/987 "2015-09-30T19:06:53Z")
> [@A\_isha](#): > > No it’s not. > > Go on, tell me the doctrinal differences between the Deobandi and the Barelvi by referencing only the Qur’an. Tell me the differences between the Roman Catholic Church and the Southern Baptists by referencing only the Bible. No, rehashing old material. I am only here for a few minutes to check to see what/if Tom’s response to my query was. I answered a few other people but those were mainly new points/new people commenting. Well, actually, your point is somewhat new so I’ll answer. But I’m not going around in circles like we spent the last week doing. Please accept my apology for not saying that in a way that wasn’t as rude as it was. You can’t tell any difference between the Catholic Church and The Southern Baptist. But if I a can skip ahead to what I think your ultimate point will be, I don’t care if there are good and bad extrapolations from the same text. I am concerned with the the situation where it goes wrong, not where it goes right. To repeat from my other comment: The worst people take the worst parts of the text and focus on that which creates a fevered sense of radicalism that is dangerous and disruptive. They are free of course to only select the parts that support their violent or oppressive agenda. I’m not really concerned with the people who use the Koran for good purposes. They would still be good people without it. It will make lots of good people, better,ie it will make good people much better people, but, it also makes bad people much worse. Since good people will still be good without the Koran and bad people will be worse because of it, then overall it’s net effect is a negative one. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2015, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741/988 "2015-09-30T19:08:46Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Bring. Oh please!!! Are you’ll - really - going to make the claim that going to a church that is fueled with hatred for gays is not going to make the people who go there hate gays more? I’m not going to waste my time trying to googlefu that just to appease you. I seriously doubt that you doubt that claim anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2015, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741/989 "2015-09-30T19:11:31Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > I’m not really concerned with the people who use the Koran for good purposes. They would still be good people without it. It will make lots of good people, better,ie **it will make good people much better people** , but, it also makes bad people much worse. > > **Since good people will still be good without the Koran** and bad people will be worse because of it, then overall it’s net effect is a negative one. Emphasis added. How do you reconcile those two statements? They seem at odds and pretty much invalidate your entire argument. It’s a logic fail - nothing to do with religion. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2015, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741/990 "2015-09-30T19:13:30Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Will good people be better people for focusing attention on the passages that urge mercy and tolerance? Of course they would. > [@](#): > > Would bad people be less so if they focused on the same passages? Can the effect be measured? Suppose someone measures out at 850 millicheneys, a pretty bad person. And we expose him exclusively to the passages that have so frightfully twisted your knickers? Would he increase his rating to 900 millicheneys, or maybe just 855? I don’t think an exact measure can be determined. Not an exact one. Wait… what are you asking. Are you asking can the bad people be moderated by the good passages, the ones about mercy and tolerance. actually I am quite sure they are. I think there is probably loads of data to support the value of social conformity and social control from religion. But, in a truly modern intellectual society, like Scandinavia, they have replaced that religious force with the force of Humanism. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2015, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741/991 "2015-09-30T19:16:05Z")
> [@Telemark](#): > > Emphasis added. How do you reconcile those two statements? They seem at odds and pretty much invalidate your entire argument. It’s a logic fail - nothing to do with religion. Easy: Terrorism, Misogyny, Killing of Journalists and cartoonists, Suppression of voices inside Islamic dictated countries that are anti Islamic etc, on the whole the negative outweighs the good… Scandinavia has replaced religiosity with Humanism. Religion does make people better and is a force of stabilization, but, we can achieve the same goals without it. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2015, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741/992 "2015-09-30T19:22:34Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > …I don’t think an exact measure can be determined. Not an exact one… Well, how about a rough one? Or any at all, for that matter? > [@](#): > > …Wait… what are you asking. Are you asking can the bad people be moderated by the good passages, the ones about mercy and tolerance. actually I am quite sure they are. I think there is probably loads of data to support the value of social conformity and social control from religion… You shifted the goalposts from one sentence to the next. In one, you are talking about the effect of the text _itself_, in the next, its all about “social conformity and social control from religion”. Which would be “culture”, yes? ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2015, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741/993 "2015-09-30T19:25:11Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > a·pol·o·gist > əˈpäləjəst/ > noun > a person who offers an argument in defense of something controversial. You need a better dictionary. An apologist writes an explanation and defense of a philosophy based on the ideas expressed in the philosophy. It is not a mere “defense” or we would call defense attorneys apologists. I have not used the beliefs of Islam to defend it, only pointing out the errors of your attacks, so you are still misusing the word. (You have used it correctly–once.) > [@Robert163](#): > > Not surprisingly, you failed completely on both accounts. _Could you respond without doing either of the following_: > > 1- Giving me another patronizing lecture Since you clearly do not understand the subject, I find that I have to explain both your errors and the facts to any third parties reading this thread. It is not my fault that you find the responses patronizing (although I admit to a bit of patronizing in this paragraph–but you asked for it 😉 .) And there was absolutely nothing patronizing in my post that you quoted. > [@Robert163](#): > > 2- Somehow changing the subject You asked the question by falsely conflating two separate ideas. I did not change the subject, I pointed out that your question was wrong, then went on to actually respond, anyway. Your statement was > [@](#): > > The point at hand is can a religious text/religion make people worse than they would be without adherence to the text. Where, after nattering on, at length in this thread, that the Qur’an was bad, you then conflated religion and religious texts in your statement, assuming that they were equivalent without providing any reason to accept that they were equivalent. I then actually took the time to answer your question: No, a religious text cannot make people worse. Yes, a religion, (or any philosophy), can make people worse. > [@Robert163](#): > > _Conflating religion with religious text is simply begging the question. I will not play that game._… which is just a poorly worded way of saying, “You are right but I am too stubborn to admit it. Now, watch me change the subject and pretend like I answered you”. > > Look, I know you are not going to actually answer or address the point I am making, I get it, but just for my own satisfaction I’m going to post it - for the third time - here goes: > > The point is that religion (can) make bad people worse. Religion pushes the bad actions further than they would of done otherwise. Don’t like gays? Lot’s of people don’t. But hang out in a church every sunday that preaches hatred of gays, all biblicaly (mainly old testament) endorsed and what not, God and Jesus hates them as much as you do!!! Suddenly your discomfort towards gay people has actually increased geometrically… and turned into book certified hatred. That does not differ from what I said, so why are you whining that I failed to answer the question when I explicitly did? (And that is not “the third time” you have stated that point. It is the third statement you have made, changing the terms each time.) > [@Robert163](#): > > I know it is difficult, to admit that the bible could actually make someone worse, but this intellectual rigor and cool objective logic you speak so highly of demands an honest assessment. It would be helpful if you would stop scattering straw man arguments around the thread, pretending that I hold beliefs that I do not hold and have never expressed. That sort of disingenuous behavior is not appropriate–particularly after whining about me being patronizing when I have not. I have never claimed that religion could not make people behave badly, even pointing out in this very thread that has done so. I deny that a religious (or philosophical) text can make people behave badly, although adherents to a theology or philosophy can employ those texts to support their bad behavior. That you cannot see the difference, (and have offered no factual rebuttal to those statements), merely demonstrates your own misdirected prejudices. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2015, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741/994 "2015-09-30T19:36:56Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > I have never claimed that religion could not make people behave badly, even pointing out in this very thread that has done so. > > I deny that a religious (or philosophical) text can make people behave badly, although adherents to a theology or philosophy can employ those texts to support their bad behavior. Oh, gee, let’s think for half a second. What is a religion based on: a text. Your claim that I do not understand logic is a bit bizarre. However… I really really can’t see that there is anything left to say on this thread. I know I keep bumping it but I am going to try and stay away after this. It is really only a sign of my own poor mental health and lack of purpose in life that I enjoy so much having a two week long argument/debate with people over the internet. Tom, I don’t know if you hate me or strongly dislike me or whatever. Apart form our religious tangles I actually quite like you. I think you do a very good job of being a moderator and you seem like a decent person. I hope you have a nice day and that the rest of your week goes well. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2015, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741/995 "2015-09-30T19:40:44Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > Right. 100% spot on. > > The worst people take the worst parts of the text and focus on that which creates a fevered sense of radicalism that is dangerous and disruptive. They are free of course to only select the parts that support their violent or oppressive agenda. > > I’m not really concerned with the people who use the Koran for good purposes. They would still be good people without it. It will make lots of good people, better,ie it will make good people much better people, but, it also makes bad people much worse. > > Since good people will still be good without the Koran and bad people will be worse because of it, then overall it’s net effect is a negative one. This is gibberish. You have provided no evidence that people would behave in a good manner if they were not exposed to the ideas in the text. Despite your Islamophobe-sourced beliefs regarding the founding of Islam, Mohammed actually did establish rules regarding war, slavery, women’s rights, etc., that were more humane than the peoples among whom he lived. They do not look more humane than post-Enlightenment ideas under which we live, but they were far better than the rules of the societies in which he lived. In addition, Muslim scholars, today, continue to extrapolate principles of behavior that move society forward, just as Jewish scholars created the Talmud taking the lessons of the Jewish scriptures forward and the Scholastics expounded on the combined Jewish/Christian scriptures, and humanists have expounded on the Talmud and Scholastic philosophy to create much of today’s secular philosophy. If you are unaware that Muslim scholars continue to comment on the Qur’an and Hadiths to deal with conditions in the current age producing works that address the problems of warfare, poverty, human rights, etc., then you are spending far too much time reading Islamophobic web sites–and if you find that patronizing, the solution is to actually study the topic rather than repeating the words of ignorant haters. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2015, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741/996 "2015-09-30T19:41:45Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > Oh, gee, let’s think for half a second. What is a religion based on: a text. No. It is not. ’ That is the fundy view that you cherish, but that has no application to real life. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2015, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741/997 "2015-09-30T19:43:55Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > Oh, gee, let’s think for half a second. What is a religion based on: a text. Which is, of course, why pre-literate societies don’t have religions. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2015, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741/998 "2015-09-30T19:57:23Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > Tom, I don’t know if you hate me or strongly dislike me or whatever. Apart form our religious tangles I actually quite like you. I think you do a very good job of being a moderator and you seem like a decent person. I hope you have a nice day and that the rest of your week goes well. I don’t have any emotional view of you, at all. I do get frustrated to see the same poor arguments presented in the face of facts throughout a thread. When you are right I will support you. When you are not I will oppose you. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2015, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741/999 "2015-09-30T23:16:33Z")
> [@A\_isha](#): > > And if Muslim violence results in 8,000 deaths per year, it’s a pretty sorry also-ran when compared to the deaths resulting from Christian violence. You’re talking about a religion of one. He’s a prophet who has 80 wives and believes in the 10 commandments. Sounds like a Muslim to me. Now if you can get back to the actual thread you’re posting in and explain the 80+ terrorist groups based on Islam and the ever present worldwide violence against cartoonists. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2015, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741/1000 "2015-09-30T23:22:04Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > This is gibberish. > > You have provided no evidence that people would behave in a good manner if they were not exposed to the ideas in the text. That’s rediculous. The evidence that people DO behave violently based on the religion is the test. ---
**Author:** ![A\_isha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@A\_isha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/A_isha)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2015, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741/1001 "2015-09-30T23:58:41Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > You’re talking about a religion of one. That’s right. One guy’s Christian cult is more violent than all of Islam. Now how do you think the scales will weigh out once we add in all the _other_ violent Christians out there? > [@](#): > > He’s a prophet who has 80 wives and believes in the 10 commandments. Sounds like a Muslim to me. Then you apparently don’t know a thing about Islam. > [@](#): > > Now if you can get back to the actual thread you’re posting in and explain the 80+ terrorist groups based on Islam and the ever present worldwide violence against cartoonists. I already told you - they are among the least-educated-in-Islam Muslims that are out there. And _you_ can’t explain all the non-Muslim terrorist groups out there (including more than a few _Buddhist_ ones). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741.md?page=49) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741.md?page=51)