# If radical Islam is violent due to culture and not religion **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 11, 2015, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741 "2015-09-11T23:24:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 51
**Author:** ![A\_isha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@A\_isha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/A_isha)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2015, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741/1002 "2015-09-30T23:59:43Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > That’s rediculous. The evidence that people DO behave violently based on the religion is the test. People behave violent for a whole lot of reasons. Blaming a single religion is…well, _stupid and bigoted_. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2015, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741/1003 "2015-10-01T00:42:49Z")
Guys, I don’t know how to break this, but he’s right. I probably shouldn’t have, but I read some stuff in Joshua, and now I totally hate the Amorites. Just itching for the chance to smite them hip and thigh, kill ‘em all! Fuckin’ Amorites! Pretty much gonna have to stop reading the Bible, can’t take that kind of chance. What if Phyllis Stein shows up dead, and I don’t have an alibi? ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2015, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741/1004 "2015-10-01T01:19:02Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > I said Jesus was a total pacifist and I was wrong and I admitted it. You claim, in terms of violence, Jesus and Mohammed are exactly the same. Clearly the are not. But you can’t or won’t admit that. You’re correct, Jesus is supposed to kill vastly, vastly more people than Muhammad ever dreamed and not in self-defense, or are you going to pretend the Bible doesn’t claim that? ---
**Author:** ![MrQwertyasd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9d8465/32.png) [@MrQwertyasd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrQwertyasd)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2015, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741/1005 "2015-10-01T01:21:40Z")
> [@A\_isha](#): > > That’s right. One guy’s Christian cult is more violent than all of Islam. Now how do you think the scales will weigh out once we add in all the _other_ violent Christians out there? > > Then you apparently don’t know a thing about Islam. > > I already told you - they are among the least-educated-in-Islam Muslims that are out there. And _you_ can’t explain all the non-Muslim terrorist groups out there (including more than a few _Buddhist_ ones). Wiki ~ “In 2014, American and Iraqi intelligence analysts said that al-Baghdadi has a doctorate in Islamic studies from a university in Baghdad.[[21]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abu_Bakr_al-Baghdadi#cite_note-nytimes10Aug14-21) According to a biography that circulated on [jihadist](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jihadist) internet forums in July 2013, he obtained a BA, MA and PhD in [Islamic studies](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_studies) from the [Islamic University of Baghdad](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraqi_University).[[8]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abu_Bakr_al-Baghdadi#cite_note-Abu-8)[[20]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abu_Bakr_al-Baghdadi#cite_note-Graun_bio-20)[[22]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abu_Bakr_al-Baghdadi#cite_note-22)[[23]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abu_Bakr_al-Baghdadi#cite_note-bbc31July14-23) Another report says that he earned a doctorate in education from the [University of Baghdad](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_Baghdad).[[24]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abu_Bakr_al-Baghdadi#cite_note-24)” He knows all the tricks. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2015, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741/1006 "2015-10-01T01:24:22Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > That’s rediculous. The evidence that people DO behave violently based on the religion is the test. No. It is not. The actual statement was that people would behave in good ways regardless of the book and only be persuaded to behave badly when invoking the book. Your attempt to twist the argument to support your bias fails. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2015, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741/1007 "2015-10-01T01:29:37Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > You’re talking about a religion of one. He’s a prophet who has 80 wives and believes in the 10 commandments. Sounds like a Muslim to me. it is nice that you display your ignorance so freely. Islam does not permit any man to have 80 wives. ---
**Author:** ![Hank\_Beecher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hank_beecher/32/7275_2.png) [@Hank\_Beecher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hank_Beecher)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2015, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741/1008 "2015-10-01T17:00:42Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > it is nice that you display your ignorance so freely. Islam does not permit any man to have 80 wives. You are wrong, yet again. The prophet of Islam [had many more than four wives](https://kafirgirl.wordpress.com/2008/08/03/wives-part-1/), as Allah oh so conveniently made permissible to him as related in Quran 33:50-51. His rape victim/child bride Aisha is said to [have responded](http://sunnah.com/bukhari/65) as such to the verses granting the self proclaimed prophet his sexual freedom: [QUOTE=Aisha] I used to look down upon those ladies who had given themselves to Allah’s Messenger () and I used to say, “Can a lady give herself (to a man)?” But when Allah revealed: "You (O Muhammad) can postpone (the turn of) whom you will of them (your wives), and you may receive any of them whom you will; and there is no blame on you if you invite one whose turn you have set aside (temporarily).’ (33.51) I said (to the Prophet), “I feel that your Lord hastens in fulfilling your wishes and desires.” [/QUOTE] ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2015, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741/1009 "2015-10-01T17:04:49Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > You’re correct, Jesus is supposed to kill vastly, vastly more people than Muhammad ever dreamed and not in self-defense, or are you going to pretend the Bible doesn’t claim that? Is it Jesus, Satan or God himself? I am assuming you are referring to the apocalypse. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2015, 4:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741/1010 "2015-10-02T04:15:11Z")
> [@Hank\_Beecher](#): > > You are wrong, yet again. The prophet of Islam [had many more than four wives](https://kafirgirl.wordpress.com/2008/08/03/wives-part-1/), as Allah oh so conveniently made permissible to him as related in Quran 33:50-51. Nothing in my post was in error, (and your attempt at a dig using “again” is false). I sad nothing referring to the number 4. I noted that Islam does not permit a man to have 80 wives. I am not the one who was wrong, simply because you rushed out to accuse me of error while moving the goalposts from what I posted to something you could attack that I never posted. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2015, 5:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741/1011 "2015-10-02T05:08:52Z")
Have to commend the citation, though. Some many citations here are dry, pedantic, and strictly factual. Especially as regards major religious figures. But this citation is breezy and snide, more Wonkette than Tuchman or Gibbon. A fresh approach that makes Muhammed more human, like Ralph Cramden or Jabba the Hutt. Refreshing, perhaps, were it not insultingly stupid. ---
**Author:** ![A\_isha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@A\_isha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/A_isha)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2015, 1:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741/1012 "2015-10-02T13:30:16Z")
> [@Hank\_Beecher](#): > > His rape victim/child bride Aisha is said to [have responded](http://sunnah.com/bukhari/65) as such to the verses granting the self proclaimed prophet his sexual freedom: As the very next _hadith_ (Book 65, number 4789) clearly states, ‘Ā’isha’s comments weren’t about Muhammad’s “sexual freedom”, nor does Q 33:51 have anything to do with the number of wives he was allowed (and even Q 33:50 doesn’t say anything about a number). It was about how Muhammad was originally supposed to take regular, almost scheduled turns with his wives, and after the revelation of Q 33:51 he could visit them in any sequence he (or they) wanted. Muhammad has between 12-14 wives in his lifetime (traditions differ), most of which were middle-aged widows and divorcees. He also wasn’t married to them all at the same time, since he outlived several of them. > [@elucidator](#): > > Have to commend the citation, though. Some many citations here are dry, pedantic, and strictly factual. Especially as regards major religious figures. But this citation is breezy and snide, more Wonkette than Tuchman or Gibbon. A fresh approach that makes Muhammed more human, like Ralph Cramden or Jabba the Hutt. Refreshing, perhaps, were it not insultingly stupid. It’s actually my favorite _hadith_, since it showcases my namesake at her most outspoken and cuttingly sarcastic and snarky. ---
**Author:** ![Alex\_Schindler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@Alex\_Schindler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alex_Schindler)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2015, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741/1013 "2015-10-07T02:30:18Z")
It’s interesting that it’s preserved in all its sharpness. It’s hard to perceive a message in it besides skepticism of self-serving clerical interpretation. It’s not the usual obsequious approach to prophets one usually associates with Islam (and most of monotheism, really). ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2015, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741/1014 "2015-10-07T02:54:30Z")
> [@madsircool](#): > > Is it Jesus, Satan or God himself? I am assuming you are referring to the apocalypse. Well you’d think his followers would be out there terrorizing the world. I guess the lectures on being nice to others along with his personal self sacrifice really confused them. ---
**Author:** ![Hank\_Beecher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hank_beecher/32/7275_2.png) [@Hank\_Beecher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hank_Beecher)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2015, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741/1015 "2015-10-07T03:29:36Z")
> [@A\_isha](#): > > As the very next _hadith_ (Book 65, number 4789) clearly states, ‘Ā’isha’s comments weren’t about Muhammad’s “sexual freedom”, nor does Q 33:51 have anything to do with the number of wives he was allowed (and even Q 33:50 doesn’t say anything about a number). It was about how Muhammad was originally supposed to take regular, almost scheduled turns with his wives, and after the revelation of Q 33:51 he could visit them in any sequence he (or they) wanted. Here is the Tasfir attributed to Ibn 'Abbas concerning 33:50: > [@](#): > > (O Prophet! Lo! We have made lawful unto thee thy wives unto whom thou hast paid their dowries, and those whom thy right hand possesseth) Maria the Copt (of those whom Allah hath given thee as spoils of war, and the daughters of thine uncles on the father’s side) and it is lawful for you to marry the daughters of your paternal uncle (and the daughters of thine aunts on the father’s side) from the Banu 'Abd al-Muttalib, (and the daughters of thine uncles on the mother’s side) from the Banu 'Abd Manaf Ibn Zahrah (who emigrated with thee) from Mecca to Medina, (and a believing woman) who believes in Allah’s divine Oneness: i.e. Umm Sharik Bint Jabir al-'Amiriyyah (if she give herself unto the Prophet and the Prophet desire to ask her in marriage, a privilege for thee only) and a dispensation for you only, (not for the (rest of) believers. We are aware of that which We enjoined upon them) what We have made lawful for and enjoined upon the believers (concerning their wives) concerning marrying up to four wives after giving them their dowry and making a proper marriage contract (and those whom their right hands possess) without limit (that thou mayst be free from blame) regarding marrying that which Allah has made lawful for you to marry, (for Allah is Forgiving) of that which has ensued from you, (Merciful) regarding that which He made a dispensation for you. > [@](#): > > Muhammad has between 12-14 wives in his lifetime (traditions differ), most of which were middle-aged widows and divorcees. He also wasn’t married to them all at the same time, since he outlived several of them. The point here is that he was like so many other self proclaimed prophets from the [past](http://www.nytimes.com/2014/11/11/us/its-official-mormon-founder-had-up-to-40-wives.html?_r=0) and [present](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warren_Jeffs) with the same [behavior](http://www.icc-cpi.int/en_menus/icc/press%20and%20media/press%20releases/2005/Pages/warrant%20of%20arrest%20unsealed%20against%20five%20lra%20commanders.aspx); they claim that god has given them the command and/or permission to “take” as many girls and/or women their compulsions drive them to. > [@](#): > > It’s actually my favorite _hadith_, since it showcases my namesake at her most outspoken and cuttingly sarcastic and snarky. It is my favorite as well. What I think it showcases is the incredible bravery of an abuse victim’s refusal to be completely dominated, despite her inability to physically resist. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2015, 6:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741/1016 "2015-10-07T06:43:51Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Well you’d think his followers would be out there terrorizing the world. I guess the lectures on being nice to others along with his personal self sacrifice really confused them. Actually, his followers have been doing a pretty good job of terrorizing the world ever since the sixteenth century. (Of course, being among the select, you are simply not able to perceive the terror associated with 500+ years of colonialism, imperialism, “white man’s burden,” Cold War _Realpolitik_, etc.) ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2015, 7:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741/1017 "2015-10-07T07:07:27Z")
Hey, that white man’s burden is the true shit! All those dance lessons, wasted… ---
**Author:** ![A\_isha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@A\_isha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/A_isha)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2015, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741/1018 "2015-10-07T15:49:45Z")
> [@Alex\_Schindler](#): > > It’s interesting that it’s preserved in all its sharpness. It’s hard to perceive a message in it besides skepticism of self-serving clerical interpretation. It’s not the usual obsequious approach to prophets one usually associates with Islam (and most of monotheism, really). Exactly. It’s part of the reason ‘Ā’isha is my favorite historical figure in Islam, and why reducing her to the insulting (and false) role of “abuse/rape victim” misunderstands and vastly underestimates who she was and the role she played in the history and development of Islam. > [@Hank\_Beecher](#): > > Here is the Tasfir attributed to Ibn 'Abbas concerning 33:50: Which, as I said, does not specify any kind of number of wives for Muhammad. And Ibn ‘Abbas’ _tafsir_ of Q 33:51 likewise says what I said, that it was about how Muhammad could visit his wives in any order. > [@](#): > > The point here is that he was like so many other self proclaimed prophets from the [past](http://www.nytimes.com/2014/11/11/us/its-official-mormon-founder-had-up-to-40-wives.html?_r=0) and [present](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warren_Jeffs) with the same [behavior](http://www.icc-cpi.int/en_menus/icc/press%20and%20media/press%20releases/2005/Pages/warrant%20of%20arrest%20unsealed%20against%20five%20lra%20commanders.aspx); they claim that god has given them the command and/or permission to “take” as many girls and/or women their compulsions drive them to. Polygamy in Arabia long predated Muhammad. He’s the one who first applied restrictions to it, in fact. > [@](#): > > It is my favorite as well. What I think it showcases is the incredible bravery of an abuse victim’s refusal to be completely dominated, despite her inability to physically resist. You couldn’t be more wrong. I suggest you read D. A. Spellberg’s Politics, Gender, and the Islamic Past: The Legacy of ‘Ā’isha bint Abi Bakr so you can learn just _how_ wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2015, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741/1019 "2015-10-07T16:00:43Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Well you’d think his followers would be out there terrorizing the world. As **tomndebb** says, this is absolutely laughable, and can only be said based on an almost complete ignorance of history, including the Crusades, the Inquisition, the conquest of the Americas, and the trans-Atlantic slave trade, for starters. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2015, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741/1020 "2015-10-07T16:31:32Z")
[QUOTE=A’isha] You couldn’t be more wrong. I suggest you read D. A. Spellberg’s [Politics, Gender, and the Islamic Past: The Legacy of ‘Ā’isha bint Abi Bakr](http://www.textbooks.com/Politics-Gender-and-the-Islamic-Past-The-Legacy-of-Aisha-Bint-abi-Bakr/9780231079990/D-A-Spellberg.php) so you can learn just _how_ wrong. [/QUOTE] Without even reading anything, it seems rather self-evident that had Aïsha been so dominated, subjugated and subservient a) she couldn’t have uttered quality uppity snark without getting smacked for it (which would have been duly recorded) and b) maaaaybe her subjugators wouldn’t have bothered jotting down said uppity snark in the first place. ---
**Author:** ![A\_isha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@A\_isha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/A_isha)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2015, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741/1021 "2015-10-07T17:06:17Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > Without even reading anything, it seems rather self-evident that had Aïsha been so dominated, subjugated and subservient a) she couldn’t have uttered quality uppity snark without getting smacked for it (which would have been duly recorded) and b) maaaaybe her subjugators wouldn’t have bothered jotting down said uppity snark in the first place. She used to sometimes best him at physical contests, too, and he would tease her about it on those occasions when he was able to win: “It was narrated that ‘Ā’isha said: ‘The Prophet raced with me and I beat him.’” (Sunan Ibn Majah 9.2055) “Narrated ‘Ā’isha, Ummul Mu’minin, while she was on a journey along with the Messenger of Allah” ‘I raced with the Prophet and beat him in the race. Later, when I had put on some weight, we raced again and he won. Then he laughed and said “This cancels that,” referring to the previous occasion.’" (Sunan Abi Dawud 2578) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741.md?page=50) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741.md?page=52)