# If radical Islam is violent due to culture and not religion **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 11, 2015, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741 "2015-09-11T23:24:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 54
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2015, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741/1062 "2015-10-08T02:40:15Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Your claim that Mohammed wanted “unbleievers” to be put to death is also taken from mistranslations and deliberately corrupted interpretations of phrases from the Qur’an. [5 passages](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=18749707&postcount=24), including the one above. Qur’an 5:33 Indeed, the penalty for those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger and strive upon earth [to cause] corruption is none but that they be killed or crucified or that their hands and feet be cut off from opposite sides or that they be exiled from the land. That is for them a disgrace in this world; and for them in the Hereafter is a great punishment, Qur’an 9:29 Fight those who do not believe in Allah or in the Last Day and who do not consider unlawful what Allah and His Messenger have made unlawful and who do not adopt the religion of truth from those who were given the Scripture - [fight] until they give the jizyah willingly while they are humbled. Qur’an 9:5 And when the sacred months have passed, then kill the polytheists wherever you find them and capture them and besiege them and sit in wait for them at every place of ambush. But if they should repent, establish prayer, and give zakah, let them [go] on their way. Indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful. Qur’an 48:29 Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah ; and those with him are forceful against the disbelievers, merciful among themselves. Qur’an 9:73 O Prophet, fight against the disbelievers and the hypocrites and be harsh upon them. And their refuge is Hell, and wretched is the destination. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2015, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741/1063 "2015-10-08T02:50:59Z")
> [@A\_isha](#): > > Muhammad was the leader of a city-state that was at war. You can’t compare him to J. Random Farmer, you have to compare him to other equivalent leaders at the time. And he was far more peaceful than they were. I missed this/it needs clarification. Why was Mohammed a leader of a city state? This is something he choose to do, correct? Plenty of other people, most, other people chose to live lives where they minded their own business and never started any wars. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2015, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741/1064 "2015-10-08T02:51:35Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > Yes, I want that land! They do not honor the prophet! He has 100 more camels than I do! :dubious: More like "They’ve persecuted me for preaching my beliefs! They’re [killing my followers!](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sumayyah_bint_Khayyat) They’re breaking their treaty and killing more of my followers! > [@](#): > > I think the word you are looking for is: hypocrisy. No; as far as I am aware, Mohammad followed the rules for slaves that he preached. Again, it bests what Jesus had done for the cause of emancipation or at least reform, which was nothing. > [@](#): > > Are you really going to claim that if Jesus had more money he would of had slaves? Why not? They’re convenient to have; Jesus never spoke ill of slavery, and he endorsed a legal code that allowed for it. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2015, 2:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741/1065 "2015-10-08T02:58:19Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > :dubious: More like "They’ve persecuted me for preaching my beliefs! They’re [killing my followers!](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sumayyah_bint_Khayyat) They’re breaking their treaty and killing more of my followers! I’m sure many of the battles were in retaliation. Are you going to say that — all — of them were? > [@](#): > > Jesus never spoke ill of slavery, and he endorsed a legal code that allowed for it. Did he? (endorse it) ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2015, 2:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741/1066 "2015-10-08T02:58:54Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > [http://quran.com/9/5](http://quran.com/9/5) > > And when the sacred months have passed, then kill the polytheists wherever you find them and capture them and besiege them and sit in wait for them at every place of ambush. But if they should repent, establish prayer, and give zakah, let them [go] on their way. Indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful. > > That is not from a biased source. Check the cite if you don’t believe me. Read it in context. He’s advising his followers to obey the cease-fire treaty, then resume the war. “The polytheists” are the forces of Mecca, i.e. the enemy forces, not all polytheists. > [@Robert163](#): > > I missed this/it needs clarification. > > Why was Mohammed a leader of a city state? This is something he choose to do, correct? Plenty of other people, most, other people chose to live lives where they minded their own business and never started any wars. Is that what this is about? Some kind of Marxist, class-based criticism of Mohammad as a rich guy with political power, and Jesus as a poor guy who was the victim of the political power of others? ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2015, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741/1067 "2015-10-08T03:05:26Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > Read it in context. He’s advising his followers to obey the cease-fire treaty, then resume the war. “The polytheists” are the forces of Mecca, i.e. the enemy forces, not all polytheists. Yes. But did Mohammed say elsewhere in the Koran, specifically — no more killing, ever — did he clarify, or, does he just leave it open for interpretation? To clarify, if that is the way the - last - war was fought, then people following those directions will fight the - next - war in the same fashion. Please in all honesty and no rudeness, please answer my question, ok? > [@](#): > > Is that what this is about? Some kind of Marxist, class-based criticism of Mohammad as a rich guy with political power, and Jesus as a poor guy who was the victim of the political power of others? Yeah, if you want to phrase it that way that is fine with me. As long as you answer this: Why did Jesus - choose - to be a Marxist and Mohammed - choose - to make war and take slaves, oops, I meant to say, be the leader of a city state. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2015, 3:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741/1068 "2015-10-08T03:07:57Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > So? So what? You are wrong, by the way. Not everyone kept slaves. Not everyone could _afford_ slaves. That’s not the same as being morally opposed to slavery. Mohammed had a lot of slaves because he was wealthy and powerful. Most people are not wealthy or powerful. But during the time Mohammed lived, his ideas about slavery were significantly more enlightened than most of his contemporaries, in both Christian and Muslim lands. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2015, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741/1069 "2015-10-08T03:08:52Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > Please in all honesty and no rudeness, please answer my question, ok? > > … > > Why did Jesus - choose - to be a Marxist and Mohammed - choose - to make war and take slaves, oops, I meant to say, be the leader of a city state. Well, that lasted. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2015, 3:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741/1070 "2015-10-08T03:09:31Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > I’m sure many of the battles were in retaliation. Are you going to say that — all — of them were? The battles of the war against Mecca? Yes. Mohammad and his followers were engaged in a just war. > [@](#): > > Did he? (endorse it) Yes: [Matthew 5:17-19](http://biblehub.com/matthew/5-17.htm) Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2015, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741/1071 "2015-10-08T03:13:55Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > The battles of the war against Mecca? Yes. Mohammad and his followers were engaged in a just war. And never, not once, ever, attacked anyone who did not attack them first? > [@](#): > > Yes: > > [Matthew 5:17-19](http://biblehub.com/matthew/5-17.htm) > Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. > > For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. > > Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. This is, at best, a tacit endorsement. You do see the difference between making a blanket statement\* about a whole body of work and actually making a specific claim. \*I hope that you can! Because I keep getting accused of it here often enough!!! ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2015, 3:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741/1072 "2015-10-08T03:18:00Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Well, that lasted. I was not the one who made the analogy to Jesus being a Marxist but I am fine with the analogy none the less. Are you going to keep making snide remarks or are you going to actually discuss the fact that Jesus had no violent followers (12 disciples, etc, not later christians) and never made war on anyone and never took any slaves. I mean, let’s say for the moment Jesus was not a myth but a normal man (not a demi-god) and a preacher, both he and Mohammed made different lifestyle choices. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2015, 3:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741/1073 "2015-10-08T03:28:54Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > The battles of the war against Mecca? Yes. Mohammad and his followers were engaged in a just war. > > Yes: > > [Matthew 5:17-19](http://biblehub.com/matthew/5-17.htm) > Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. > > For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. > > Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. Most scholars are of the opinion that this passage underlines Jesus’ Jewish traditionalism. The law he is referring to would now be called Talmudic law. It was Peter who labored mightily to square Christian morality with the law and order of the time, which is to say, Roman. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2015, 3:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741/1074 "2015-10-08T03:30:01Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > Yes. But did Mohammed say elsewhere in the Koran, specifically — no more killing, ever — did he clarify, or, does he just leave it open for interpretation? To clarify, if that is the way the - last - war was fought, then people following those directions will fight the - next - war in the same fashion. Please in all honesty and no rudeness, please answer my question, ok? “No more killing, ever” is a _terrible_ policy, both for 7th century Arabia and today. Again, violence isn’t inherently immoral. Fighting the “next war” in the same fashion would be fine; Mohammad urges mercy and sparing anyone who surrenders. Is it possible for someone to convince themselves that Mohammad meant to kill all non-Muslims? Sure. But that only seems to happen in recent times, among a radical fringe, and as a response to local material and political factors, such as anti-colonialism. > [@](#): > > Yeah, if you want to phrase it that way that is fine with me. To clarify - you are criticizing these men based on their social class and political power as much as or more than their words and deeds, correct? That is, Mohammad is bad because he was a powerful leader, and not part of the proletariat? Bear with me, I’m just trying to understand where you’re coming from on this. > [@](#): > > As long as you answer this: > > Why did Jesus - choose - to be a Marxist and Mohammed - choose - to make war and take slaves, oops, I meant to say, be the leader of a city state. I wouldn’t describe Jesus as a Marxist, though some of his teachings are consistent with it. As for why their lives played out differently: they were born into different positions in different times and places. Boring old material factors. Jesus was a humble preacher in a region under Roman occupation, who was dead by the time [war came.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Jewish%E2%80%93Roman_War) Making war wasn’t an option for Jesus, he didn’t have the resources; similarly slaves weren’t an option for an itinerant preacher. Mohammad was a merchant, in a time and place where a successful campaign against his persecutors could be waged. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2015, 3:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741/1075 "2015-10-08T03:34:01Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Most scholars are of the opinion that this passage underlines Jesus’ Jewish traditionalism. The law he is referring to would now be called Talmudic law. It was Peter who labored mightily to square Christian morality with the law and order of the time, which is to say, Roman. Exactly. I don’t claim expertise, but on the basis of what I’ve read, I concur that, like many aspects of Christianity, the idea that Jesus established a new covenant that abolished parts of the Law comes from Paul, and not from Jesus. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2015, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741/1076 "2015-10-08T03:40:23Z")
> [@A\_isha](#): > > Uh, no. Just the opposite, really. There’s an entire discipline of _fiqh_ called _naskh_, or “abrogation”, which is nothing _but_ altering, editing, and revising the final instructions of the final Prophet of God, by identifying which verses of the Qur’an have been “canceled”. AFAIK, all religions practice abrogation. Christianity certainly does. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2015, 3:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741/1077 "2015-10-08T03:41:46Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > And never, not once, ever, attacked anyone who did not attack them first? Do you mean individuals? They attacked Meccan caravans, and I’m sure that not every Meccan on every caravan was personally involved in persecuting or killing Muslims. Similarly, I’m positive that there were Japanese soldiers who died during the Battle of the Coral Sea that didn’t participate in the attack on Pearl Harbor…that doesn’t make Chester Nimitz a murderer. War is war. If you’re a pacifist, so be it; Mohammad can be criticized on pacifist grounds. He could have fled the region, he could have allowed himself to be killed; whatever pacifism would demand of him. But to the non-pacifist majority, such criticism rings very hollow. > [@](#): > > This is, at best, a tacit endorsement. You do see the difference between making a blanket statement\* about a whole body of work and actually making a specific claim. > > \*I hope that you can! Because I keep getting accused of it here often enough!!! So what would a strong endorsement look like??? He makes the Kingdom of Heaven conditional on obeying the “least of” the commandments of the law. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2015, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741/1078 "2015-10-08T03:48:42Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > “No more killing, ever” is a _terrible_ policy, both for 7th century Arabia and today. Again, violence isn’t inherently immoral. Wow. So technical. Parse is the word I think I’m looking for. (I had to look up parse, then I had to look up syntax… yes, parse is the word I’m looking for). I meant “Hey guys, don’t start any more wars, ever, for no reason… don’t ever — start — a war. If they come to your town/city/country to attack you, defend yourself, but never, for any reason, take the battle beyond your city gates.” (He was the leader of a city state, right?). Did he ever say that, you know, all specific and syntactically correct and whatnot. > [@](#): > > Fighting the “next war” in the same fashion would be fine; Mohammad urges mercy and sparing anyone who surrenders. And what about those who don’t surrender? > [@](#): > > Is it possible for someone to convince themselves that Mohammad meant to kill all non-Muslims? Sure. But that only seems to happen in recent times, among a radical fringe, and as a response to local material and political factors, such as anti-colonialism. Is it? People here, the apologists, reject the idea that the march of Islam across North Africa was theocratic, that, it was just regular political expansion. I’d say it is a mixture of both. > [@](#): > > To clarify - you are criticizing these men based on their social class and political power as much as or more than their words and deeds, correct? That is, Mohammad is bad because he was a powerful leader, and not part of the proletariat? > > Bear with me, I’m just trying to understand where you’re coming from on this. Yes, 100%. He could of decided to be a simple sheep herder instead. > [@](#): > > I wouldn’t describe Jesus as a Marxist, though some of his teachings are consistent with it. As for why their lives played out differently: they were born into different positions in different times and places. Boring old material factors. > > Jesus was a humble preacher in a region under Roman occupation, who was dead by the time [war came.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Jewish%E2%80%93Roman_War) Making war wasn’t an option for Jesus, he didn’t have the resources; similarly slaves weren’t an option for an itinerant preacher. > > Mohammad was a merchant, in a time and place where a successful campaign against his persecutors could be waged. Sheep herder? Significantly less violent. If he was rich he could of bought — a lot — of sheep. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2015, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741/1079 "2015-10-08T04:09:17Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > Do you mean individuals? They attacked Meccan caravans, and I’m sure that not every Meccan on every caravan was personally involved in persecuting or killing Muslims. I sense a yeah but coming… > [@](#): > > Similarly, I’m positive that there were Japanese soldiers who died during the Battle of the Coral Sea that didn’t participate in the attack on Pearl Harbor…that doesn’t make Chester Nimitz a murderer. War is war. I think the more apt analogy, if we are going to parse words, would be soldiers who make civilian raids during times of war. You just admitted: they attacked Meccan caravans, and I’m sure that not every Meccan on every caravan was personally involved in persecuting or killing Muslims. Could we please do a little bit better with our analogies??? > [@](#): > > If you’re a pacifist, so be it; Mohammad can be criticized on pacifist grounds. He could have fled the region, he could have allowed himself to be killed; whatever pacifism would demand of him. But to the non-pacifist majority, such criticism rings very hollow. No, he could of chosen to be a sheep herder and never involved himself in local power struggles. This is what a peaceful individual does when surrounded by a sea of chaos and violence. (Assuming they had the money to by a lot of sheep, which, he did. Also, if you want to substitute some other non violent vocation in place of sheep herder, go ahead.) > [@](#): > > So what would a strong endorsement look like??? He makes the Kingdom of Heaven conditional on obeying the “least of” the commandments of the law." I guess the rules about sex slaves. I’ll try and look this up for you if you really really truly do not believe what I am about to say (an account of what I previously read) I’ll try and look it up for you. Basically, from what I recall, Mohammed encouraged, heavily, freeing of male slaves. He specified that only those captured in war or born of a slave can be a slave. So in that regard he was - somewhat - better than his contemporaries. But his comments on sex slaves were quite different. Those comments mainly consisted of, things like, should you brag about your sex slaves in front of your wife, does your sex slave have to follow any command you give her, as opposed to, do they have to follow any command of any one in your household or any guests in your premises. You know “really tough, hard hitting questions” that show Mohammed’s deep regard for women as a category of people. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2015, 6:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741/1080 "2015-10-08T06:28:03Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > Yes, I kind of am hoping that if god exists he/she/it is benevolent and peaceful. Are you trying to assert that god should be violent psychotic and vengeful? Should’s beyond my paygrade by Yahweh’s kind of a gigantic, bipolar dick, yes. Ask Abraham. Or Noah. [QUOTE=Robert163] No, he could of chosen to be a sheep herder and never involved himself in local power struggles. This is what a peaceful individual does when surrounded by a sea of chaos and violence. (Assuming they had the money to by a lot of sheep, which, he did. Also, if you want to substitute some other non violent vocation in place of sheep herder, go ahead.) [/QUOTE] “What man is a man who does not try to make the world better ?” And it’s not arguable that he did. The Muslim empire, by the 9th century and all the way into the 1700s was a beacon of enlightenment, science, commerce, religious tolerance, industry, art and literature for most of the world (with only China remaining ahead, economically at least). When Spain expelled its Jews, when the Byzantines persecuted their heretics, where do you think they fled \*to \*? Throughout that entire time Christendom was little more than a bunch of brutes constantly murdering each other and producing nothing much of value to anyone - the only thing we finally found that had any kind of global appeal was cannon. Then we proceeded to take everyone else’s shit with them, which allowed us to catch up until we had a leg up on everybody else. At which point we confidently asserted that using violence to get other people’s stuff is very very bad and the important thing is keeping the world stable. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2015, 6:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741/1081 "2015-10-08T06:34:52Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > And it’s not arguable that he did. The Muslim empire, by the 9th century and all the way into the 1700s was a beacon of enlightenment, science, commerce, religious tolerance, industry, art and literature for most of the world (with only China remaining ahead, economically at least). When Spain expelled its Jews, when the Byzantines persecuted their heretics, where do you think they fled \*to \*? > > Throughout that entire time Christendom was little more than a bunch of brutes constantly murdering each other and producing nothing much of value to anyone - the only thing we finally found that had any kind of global appeal was cannon. You know how when people say… “correlation does not equal causation”… (insert snarky tone of voice) Well, I’m not saying it, not like that, not in that tone of voice. But, how can you be sure that what happened 20 or 50 or 200 years after the death of Mohammed can really be attributed to him? Was he a scientist? (no). Did he propose innovative economic theory? (I don’t think so). Did he specifically promote Art, Architecture, Literature and Civil Reform… or did he just issue broad worded platitudes??? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741.md?page=53) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741.md?page=55)