# If radical Islam is violent due to culture and not religion **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 11, 2015, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741 "2015-09-11T23:24:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 62
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2015, 9:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741/1222 "2015-10-26T09:10:50Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > And how would you know this? Were you there? Did you talk to these kings? What about the troops? In a very real sense, yes. Or rather, they talked to us. In writing. Well, it’s more like we’re eavesdropping on their conversations, really. Which makes it more honest and reliable as the act of observing cannot affect the observed. Who’s, you know, dead. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2015, 9:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741/1223 "2015-10-26T09:17:22Z")
(and we can also infer that Arab conquerors didn’t convert people at the point of a sword by the fact that not only did the populations they conquered not convert quickly, but their new Muslim rulers would also often plumb refuse voluntary conversions - that’s pretty much what caused the fall of the Umayyads, deposed by more devout parties) ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2015, 10:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741/1224 "2015-10-26T10:06:12Z")
(as well as subjects of the Empire who _wanted_ to convert - though whether they did because of _bona fide_ religious conviction, or to get out from under non-Muslim taxes, or to take a larger role within the Empire varies from case to case) ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2015, 1:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741/1225 "2015-10-26T13:12:51Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > I doubt that the troops had any doubt that they were fighting on behalf of Mohammed. And how do you know this? Did you talk to the troops? 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2015, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741/1226 "2015-10-26T13:34:52Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > (as well as subjects of the Empire who _wanted_ to convert - though whether they did because of _bona fide_ religious conviction, or to get out from under non-Muslim taxes, or to take a larger role within the Empire varies from case to case) Yes in fact the historical records (the tax records which are so relevatory) of the classical middle east show that conversion of the wider population took centuries, in most places it was ironically only after the starting of the Crusades that conversion of the christian populations accelerated, the western crusaders having had an effect opposite of their intentions. > [@andros](#): > > And how do you know this? Did you talk to the troops? > > 😃 Kha. That’s right… Funny how his logic towards proofs blows in the wind. ---
**Author:** ![MrQwertyasd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9d8465/32.png) [@MrQwertyasd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrQwertyasd)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2015, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741/1227 "2015-10-26T13:59:25Z")
Every video I’ve seen of fighting in the Middle East has been accompanied by cries of Allahu Akbar. Even by those supposedly moderate and secular. Every RPG seems to be sent by god, Why would it be different 1000 years ago ? [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-RvBbz1hTnw](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-RvBbz1hTnw) - every time they launch a mortar, every time they empty a clip. replace all that with sword and put them on horses, send them to the Iberian peninsula, and I think that’s probably how it was. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2015, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741/1228 "2015-10-26T14:32:04Z")
> [@MrQwertyasd](#): > > Every video I’ve seen of fighting in the Middle East has been accompanied by cries of Allahu Akbar. Even by those supposedly moderate and secular. Every RPG seems to be sent by god, Why would it be different 1000 years ago ? And every dollar bill spent in the Middle East has “In God We Trust” written on it. Every US President speaks of God, and asks His blessing. > [@](#): > > I think that’s probably how it was. Not gonna take anything away from your opinion. But do you have any evidence that might help persuade me it’s correct? . ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2015, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741/1229 "2015-10-26T14:47:47Z")
> [@MrQwertyasd](#): > > Every video I’ve seen of fighting in the Middle East has been accompanied by cries of Allahu Akbar. Even by those supposedly moderate and secular. Every RPG seems to be sent by god, Why would it be different 1000 years ago ? > > [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-RvBbz1hTnw](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-RvBbz1hTnw) - every time they launch a mortar, every time they empty a clip. replace all that with sword and put them on horses, send them to the Iberian peninsula, and I think that’s probably how it was. The takbir (“allahu akhbar”, God’s great) is more or less meaningless because it’s used in so many different contexts. It’s a prayer, and a swear word, and a boast, and a battle cry, and an expression of thanks, joy, gratitude, hopelessness… When RPG teams scream it, it’s 1:1 equivalent with “fuck yeah !”. Tell me, when you say “holy shit !” or “Jesus fucking Christ !”, does that mean you believe there to be a religious component to the hypothetically observed phenomenon that prompted these exclamations ? 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2015, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741/1230 "2015-10-26T14:54:17Z")
(gah, fucked up my edit, that should be “God is greatER”, as in whatever obstacle is in your way God is greater than it/can defeat it.) ---
**Author:** ![MrQwertyasd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9d8465/32.png) [@MrQwertyasd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrQwertyasd)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2015, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741/1231 "2015-10-26T15:24:39Z")
> [@andros](#): > > And every dollar bill spent in the Middle East has “In God We Trust” written on it. Every US President speaks of God, and asks His blessing. > > Not gonna take anything away from your opinion. But do you have any evidence that might help persuade me it’s correct? > . And Chris Kyle let off every round for God and Country. Yup. God Save the Queen. It’s everywhere. I’m waiting for evidence that all these Islamic empires and caliphates were created peacefully. ---
**Author:** ![MrQwertyasd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9d8465/32.png) [@MrQwertyasd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrQwertyasd)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2015, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741/1232 "2015-10-26T15:35:17Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > The takbir (“allahu akhbar”, God’s great) is more or less meaningless because it’s used in so many different contexts. It’s a prayer, and a swear word, and a boast, and a battle cry, and an expression of thanks, joy, gratitude, hopelessness… When RPG teams scream it, it’s 1:1 equivalent with “fuck yeah !”. > Tell me, when you say “holy shit !” or “Jesus fucking Christ !”, does that mean you believe there to be a religious component to the hypothetically observed phenomenon that prompted these exclamations ? 😉 Indeed I do find myself delivering such epithets. I always took it as a sign of how deeply programmed we are, and something of a hopeless cry because, after all, Jesus isn’t listening. But you can tell allahu akbar isn’t just a version of fuck yeah! just by the tone, and the repetition. It sounds more like a prayer than an exclamation. I’ve gone and looked at anti Israeli street rallies where muslims gather and “down with Israel, Allahu Akbar in pretty much the same way”. So yeah it seems like all those things rolled into one, because these are holy wars. But I think it’s pretty interesting to consider why people say holy shit, or fuck! interchangeably because one is sacred and one is profane - or at least in the church’s eyes. I think a fuck is the closest many people come to the divine. How about Holy Pussy! Pussy is Great!, because that’s what most of them are really fighting for. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2015, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741/1233 "2015-10-26T15:42:01Z")
> [@MrQwertyasd](#): > > But you can tell allahu akbar isn’t just a version of fuck yeah! just by the tone, and the repetition. It sounds more like a prayer than an exclamation. Oh, you can just _tell_. Ok. > [@](#): > > So yeah it seems like all those things rolled into one, because these are holy wars. You keep begging that question… > [@](#): > > How about Holy Pussy! Pussy is Great!, because that’s what most of them are really fighting for. So…_not_ related to religion, then? This sounds awfully inconsistent to me. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2015, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741/1234 "2015-10-26T15:42:41Z")
> [@MrQwertyasd](#): > > …I’m waiting for evidence that all these Islamic empires and caliphates were created peacefully. “All”? When did the goalposts get moved to “all”? ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2015, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741/1235 "2015-10-26T15:43:14Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > “All”? When did the goalposts get moved to “all”? You must have blinked. ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2015, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741/1236 "2015-10-26T18:20:58Z")
What empire has ever been created “peacefully”? In fact what state has without conflcit? Well it is in any case very interesting to see the deep analysis of the usage of a phrase in a langauge the person does not speak at all. deep analytics we face here. ---
**Author:** ![MrQwertyasd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9d8465/32.png) [@MrQwertyasd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrQwertyasd)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2015, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741/1237 "2015-10-26T18:25:28Z")
> [@andros](#): > > Oh, you can just _tell_. Ok. Yup. Having said prayers, and having shouted Jesus Fucking Christ!! I know the difference in tone and type. I’d be worried about anyone who couldn’t. ---
**Author:** ![MrQwertyasd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9d8465/32.png) [@MrQwertyasd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrQwertyasd)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2015, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741/1238 "2015-10-26T18:26:36Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > “All”? When did the goalposts get moved to “all”? All _these_ - _these_ being the ones claimed to be peaceful. Please be aware of where the goalposts actually are. Thank you. ---
**Author:** ![MrQwertyasd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9d8465/32.png) [@MrQwertyasd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrQwertyasd)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2015, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741/1239 "2015-10-26T18:29:07Z")
> [@Ramira](#): > > What empire has ever been created “peacefully”? In fact what state has without conflcit? > > Well it is in any case very interesting to see the deep analysis of the usage of a phrase in a langauge the person does not speak at all. > > deep analytics we face here. Right. I have to have a degree in Arabic to know what Allahu Akbar means to people trying to kill other people ? Logical ? not really. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2015, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741/1240 "2015-10-26T18:38:39Z")
> [@MrQwertyasd](#): > > But you can tell allahu akbar isn’t just a version of fuck yeah! just by the tone, and the repetition. It sounds more like a prayer than an exclamation. Does it ? :dubious: There’s an amusing video out there of a Syrian (insurgent) RPG team trying to blow up a Russian Mi-8, but failing because that thing is a gorram beast. Vid’s safe for work, no Russians were harmed in the video although I expect a few Russian skivvies were soiled. Anyway, the point is, you can tell that each takbir really means a different thing by intonation, even though it’s the same phrase over and over : [rocket fired] Allahu Ackbar ! (Yes !) [rocket in flight] Allahu ackbar allahu ackbarallahuackbar (come ooooon come on c’mon c’mon) [rocket hit]\*\*ALLLLAAAAAHU ACKBAR ! x20 \*\*(FUCK YEAH, GET SOME !) [chopper reappearing from dissipating cloud of smoke]Allahu ackbar… allahu ackbar ?! (the hell ?!) [chopper trucking away]Allahu ackbar. (well, crap.) ---
**Author:** ![MrQwertyasd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9d8465/32.png) [@MrQwertyasd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrQwertyasd)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2015, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741/1241 "2015-10-26T18:43:28Z")
Versatile innit ? [rocket fired] Allahu Ackbar ! (Yes !) - god gave me this fantastic rocket! [rocket in flight] Allahu ackbar allahu ackbarallahuackbar (come ooooon come on c’mon c’mon) - please god guide my rocket [rocket hit]\*\*ALLLLAAAAAHU ACKBAR ! x20 \*\*(FUCK YEAH, GET SOME !) - thank you god, you answered my prayers! [chopper reappearing from dissipating cloud of smoke]Allahu ackbar… allahu ackbar ?! (the hell ?!) - god, are you testing us yet more ? [chopper trucking away]Allahu ackbar. (well, crap.) - god, I don’t know why you do this, but I won’t lose faith. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741.md?page=61) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741.md?page=63)