# If radical Islam is violent due to culture and not religion **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 11, 2015, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741 "2015-09-11T23:24:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Sr\_Siete](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6de8d8/32.png) [@Sr\_Siete](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sr_Siete)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2015, 8:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741/121 "2015-09-12T08:22:52Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > Or the pigs he sent over a cliff when he cast demons into them. Come to think about it, Jesus resurrected a [couple](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lazarus_of_Bethany) of [corpses](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raising_of_Jairus%27_daughter) and even came back from the dead himself. There’s a word for that: Necromancer. And those are generally evil. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2015, 8:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741/122 "2015-09-12T08:25:10Z")
> [@aldiboronti](#): > > If the name of Islam is being blackened, and it is, it’s down to ISIS and others like them. These goons claim to revere Muhammed yet they’re dragging his name down to the dirt in the eyes of many in the non-Muslim world, who unfortunately seem incapable of distinguishing between the extremists and the peaceful majority. All their brains register after each fresh atrocity is, “Those fucking Muslims are at it again.” This is what ISIS is achieving in its idiocy. It bears a heavy responsibility for it. > > And, yes, there’s some bloodthirsty stuff in the Koran. So is there in the Bible. The vast majority of Muslims and Christians pay no attention to it at all, correctly figuring that it’s irrelevant to the main thrust of their faiths. Ok Does ISIS make up any commands that are not in not in the Koran or Hadiths? Let me clarify: do they have any practices that are not at least slightly supported with a direct quote from the Koran/Hadith? ---
**Author:** ![Sr\_Siete](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6de8d8/32.png) [@Sr\_Siete](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sr_Siete)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2015, 8:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741/123 "2015-09-12T08:26:22Z")
> [@aldiboronti](#): > > If the name of Islam is being blackened, and it is, it’s down to ISIS and others like them. These goons claim to revere Muhammed yet they’re dragging his name down to the dirt in the eyes of many in the non-Muslim world, who unfortunately seem incapable of distinguishing between the extremists and the peaceful majority. All their brains register after each fresh atrocity is, “Those fucking Muslims are at it again.” This is what ISIS is achieving in its idiocy. It bears a heavy responsibility for it. Idiocy? I assume that’s their main objective. To radicalize the narrative. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2015, 8:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741/124 "2015-09-12T08:26:55Z")
> [@aldiboronti](#): > > And, yes, there’s some bloodthirsty stuff in the Koran. So is there in the Bible. The vast majority of Muslims and Christians pay no attention to it at all, correctly figuring that it’s irrelevant to the main thrust of their faiths. How can that possibly be the correct method to take if the book is the word of god and the word of god calls for something bloodthirsty? ---
**Author:** ![Hiker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/3be4f8/32.png) [@Hiker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hiker)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2015, 10:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741/125 "2015-09-12T10:09:39Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > How can that possibly be the correct method to take if the book is the word of god and the word of god calls for something bloodthirsty? But does it? The notion that any layman can simply pick up the Qur’an, read it and understand its meaning would be entirely rejected by almost all Muslim scholars. Even more than the Bible the Qur’an requires interpretation. This is called [Tafsir](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tafsir)and not everyone can do it. Religious fanatics are cherry picking individual excerpts from the scripture and boldly claim that they justify their violent actions. That is what religious fanatics love to do and not only those of the Muslim variety. But you have to understand that these people are violent in the first place. Religion is merely a convenient marketing tool for them. For Westerners, who know even less about Islam than those fanatics do, it is ill advised to suggest that the Qur’an, which in Islamic tradition represents the word of God, clearly calls for violence against Christians, Jews or whoever. To a Muslim you are basically saying that the IS goons are the true Muslims while the vast peaceful majority has got it all wrong. A statement like that is neither in our own best interests nor does it hold much water. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2015, 10:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741/126 "2015-09-12T10:33:13Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > I will return to my criticism that a religion practiced with no restraint is actually the true nature of that religion. Everyone else practicing it, even if it is 99.9% of the people who are practicing it, are practicing a modified version of that religion. Where do you get off deciding for others what the meaning of their faith’s dictates are? ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2015, 10:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741/127 "2015-09-12T10:51:24Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > How can that possibly be the correct method to take if the book is the word of god and the word of god calls for something bloodthirsty? Because a religion is not a book. People have this idea of Islamic exceptionalism- that somehow unlike every religion on earth, Islam is purely about the holy book and not a mishmash of old books, modern clerics, tradition, local culture, politics, personal preference, and centuries of evolving practice. Not all Muslims are fundamentalists, just like not all Christians are biblical literalists. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2015, 11:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741/128 "2015-09-12T11:42:28Z")
> [@Hiker](#): > > But does it? The notion that any layman can simply pick up the Qur’an, read it and understand its meaning would be entirely rejected by almost all Muslim scholars. Even more than the Bible the Qur’an requires interpretation. This is called [Tafsir](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tafsir)and not everyone can do it. Umm, no. Look, I WISH communism worked. It does not. Not only does it not work, it usually leads to violence and oppression. I started a thread a while back, asking if Marx would of approved of the drastic and violent methods of Stalin, Pol Pot and Mao. The consensus seemed to be that to one degree or another, he would. Some even said in his later writings his writing focused on or suggested specific steps for violent overthrow. I have not read those writings but I have read other of his writings. The point is if he calls for specifics steps for violent revolution, then he is wrong. Doubly so if “innocent” people are affected. I don’t have to be an expert in Marx or read the original text fluently in it’s original text to say it is wrong to call for the death of innocent people. Or, to simply relabel the innocent people you kill as “collateral damage” to justify your cause. [Thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=765943) Specific mention of Violence [here](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=18626304&postcount=7), [here](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=18626884&postcount=8), an opposing view [here](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=18630450&postcount=11) You make a good point, however, political leaders and religious leaders - are - often misrepresented. Malcolm X is often known in the USA as the “violent” other side of the coin to MLK’s pacifism. (Martin Luther King). But Malcolm was not violent and did not advocate violence. Black Panthers did, but they came after Malcolm X (shortly thereafter) and the two “movements” are often confused/overlapped in the public’s memory but they were actually separate movements and Malcolm - never - even before his trip to Mecca, advocated violence against white people, he only said that you had the right to use violence to defend yourself if violence is used against you. BTW - you are German, right? I really really like the small amount that I know about German Philosophy. Hegel, Kant, Nietzsche… I like them all, enough that if i ever went back to school I may want to learn German just to read the Authors in their original language. Certainly knowing German would give better insight than a translation (or a summary). Did Marx write in German? > [@](#): > > Religious fanatics are cherry picking individual excerpts from the scripture and boldly claim that they justify their violent actions. That is what religious fanatics love to do and not only those of the Muslim variety. But you have to understand that these people are violent in the first place. Religion is merely a convenient marketing tool for them. And so are the “very liberal” Muslims who live in the USA and Europe that let women have full rights and would never contemplate enacting Sharia law. They are cherry picking just as much, if not more, than groups like ISIS. > [@](#): > > For Westerners, who know even less about Islam than those fanatics do, it is ill advised to suggest that the Qur’an, which in Islamic tradition represents the word of God, clearly calls for violence against Christians, Jews or whoever. To a Muslim you are basically saying that the IS goons are the true Muslims while the vast peaceful majority has got it all wrong. A statement like that is neither in our own best interests nor does it hold much water. You are right. I do not know the book well. But it DOES say: If you have a male slave you are encouraged to set him free. You don’t have to but you are encouraged too. You are - encouraged - not to do things with your female slaves that will make your wife/wives feel jealous or feel less than (for lack than a better term). What he is actually specific about, the only specific thing he has to say about slavery is how to handle female slaves. Like, that they must do all the sex stuff you want and shouldn’t complain much about it. Or, what rules to use if you offer a sex slave to a guest and there is some difference of opinion on “protocol” between the sex slave and the guest. If I remember correctly, it was regional or different from sect to sect, in some cases she had to follow orders from anyone and in some cases only from full members of your household. That’s all readily available on wikipedia under slavery and Islam if you want to look it up. I’ll look it up for you if you have trouble finding it. My “ignorance” of Islam or Mohammed in no way justifies the few specific things he actually says about sex slaves. If, however, what is printed on Wikipedia is a lie, then of course my ignorance is a factor, a very big factor. I mean, if the wikipedia entry is deliberate propaganda by people who dislike Islam. That could be a possibility… ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2015, 11:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741/129 "2015-09-12T11:45:32Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > Where do you get off deciding for others what the meaning of their faith’s dictates are? Where? Usually at my computer. Usually on my desktop, I find it more comfortable to type on than my laptop. If I am relaxing in my [recliner](http://www.homecomfortfurniture.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/5/4/5491-8_recliner.jpg),\* however, it is from my laptop. - That is not actually me in the recliner. Nor is a laptop present in the photo. But still, I think it is a nice picture. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2015, 11:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741/130 "2015-09-12T11:48:23Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > Because a religion is not a book. People have this idea of Islamic exceptionalism- that somehow unlike every religion on earth, Islam is purely about the holy book and not a mishmash of old books, modern clerics, tradition, local culture, politics, personal preference, and centuries of evolving practice. Yeah, I agree. Not really the point (see next response). > [@](#): > > Not all Muslims are fundamentalists, just like not all Christians are biblical literalists. I never said that. What I am saying, proposing, is that the more violence that is in the original text of a religion the more likely the right and center proponents of that religion will tacitly at least, support violence to achiever their religious goals. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2015, 11:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741/131 "2015-09-12T11:58:01Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > I never said that. What I am saying, proposing, is that the more violence that is in the original text of a religion the more likely the right and center proponents of that religion will tacitly at least, support violence to achiever their religious goals. Which is why all christians should be regarded as potential terrorists, as their bible is replete with exhortations for all kinds of mayhem, murder and oppression. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2015, 12:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741/132 "2015-09-12T12:00:07Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > Which is why all christians should be regarded as potential terrorists, as their bible is replete with exhortations for all kinds of mayhem, murder and oppression. Do you seriously believe that or are you just “giving me a hard time”? ---
**Author:** ![Hiker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/3be4f8/32.png) [@Hiker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hiker)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2015, 12:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741/133 "2015-09-12T12:01:11Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > You are right. I do not know the book well. But it DOES say: > > If you have a male slave you are encouraged to set him free. You don’t have to but you are encouraged too. You are - encouraged - not to do things with your female slaves that will make your wife/wives feel jealous or feel less than (for lack than a better term). What he is actually specific about, the only specific thing he has to say about slavery is how to handle female slaves. Like, that they must do all the sex stuff you want and shouldn’t complain much about it. Or, what rules to use if you offer a sex slave to a guest and there is some difference of opinion on “protocol” between the sex slave and the guest. If I remember correctly, it was regional or different from sect to sect, in some cases she had to follow orders from anyone and in some cases only from full members of your household. > > That’s all readily available on wikipedia under slavery and Islam if you want to look it up. I’ll look it up for you if you have trouble finding it. > > My “ignorance” of Islam or Mohammed in no way justifies the few specific things he actually says about sex slaves. If, however, what is printed on Wikipedia is a lie, then of course my ignorance is a factor, a very big factor. I mean, if the wikipedia entry is deliberate propaganda by people who dislike Islam. That could be a possibility… This is what the Bible (among other things) has to say about slavery: [QUOTE=Exodus 21] And if a man sells his daughter to be a female slave, she shall not go out as the male slaves do. If she does not please her master, who has betrothed her to himself, then he shall let her be redeemed. He shall have no right to sell her to a foreign people, since he has dealt deceitfully with her. And if he has betrothed her to his son, he shall deal with her according to the custom of daughters. If he takes another wife, he shall not diminish her food, her clothing, and her marriage rights. And if he does not do these three for her, then she shall go out free, without paying money. [/QUOTE] You may argue that this stipulates a more lenient treatment of slaves, but it obviously accepts slavery as a practice. That is not surprising, since slavery was common practice when the scripture was written. Most believers have moved on from the antiquated code of morals that was common when the scriptures were written. For the concept of religion that represents a problem, because if the scriptures represent the word of God, they should of course be timeless. Consequently you will every now and then encounter some fool who takes the ancient texts at face value with little understanding of what context they were written in or what the underlying philosophy was. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2015, 12:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741/134 "2015-09-12T12:03:36Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > Do you seriously believe that or are you just “giving me a hard time”? I am just following your premise to the logical end. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2015, 12:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741/135 "2015-09-12T12:10:13Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > thats an issue you need to take up with christians The Christians’ holy text (remember? the thing you wanted to focus on as defining a religion?) advocates violence. Many Christians have in the past (and some still do) used their holy text to advocate violence. Why many and not all? For the same reason many and not all Muslims use their holy text to advocate violence. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2015, 12:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741/136 "2015-09-12T12:26:55Z")
> [@Hiker](#): > > This is what the Bible (among other things) has to say about slavery: > > You may argue that this stipulates a more lenient treatment of slaves, but it obviously accepts slavery as a practice. That is not surprising, since slavery was common practice when the scripture was written. > > Most believers have moved on from the antiquated code of morals that was common when the scriptures were written. For the concept of religion that represents a problem, because if the scriptures represent the word of God, they should of course be timeless. Consequently you will every now and then encounter some fool who takes the ancient texts at face value with little understanding of what context they were written in or what the underlying philosophy was. Oh, well, there is an - actual - difference between the OT and the NT. That is a bit problematic. Most Christians reject the OT\*. Whether Jesus did or did not, well the NT passages on his direct quotes on the topic are a bit contradictory. Nonetheless, the core message of Jesus are pacifism and forgiveness. I’ve never seem any religious figure talk as much about forgiveness as him, not even Buddha or Lao Tzu or Krishnamurti (Krishnamurti is modern). getting a bit distracted. The point: there is not a single word (accurately) attributed to Jesus that can be used to justify bombing an abortion clinic. or blowing up an airplane or stoning someone to death. - OT - many Christians keep the homosexuality is an abomination bit but disregard the more strenuous Hasidic type rules for the Sabbath. They can’t really do that though. The NT says for - salvation - all you need is faith (a point argued against by some christians) but as to the actual “rules” rules of the OT, Jesus says: [Matthew 5:18](http://biblehub.com/matthew/5-18.htm) For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. The fact that the OT/NT are both independently and collectively as well, a minefield of contradictions is not really the point. My haters seem to think it is somehow significant. It is not. What is significant and what is true is not a single word of Jesus can be used to “misconstrue” bombing and abortion clinic. The same cannot be said for Mohammed. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2015, 12:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741/137 "2015-09-12T12:28:49Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > I am just following your premise to the logical end. I call your use of logic into question then > [@Frylock](#): > > The Christians’ holy text (remember? the thing you wanted to focus on as defining a religion?) advocates violence. Many Christians have in the past (and some still do) used their holy text to advocate violence. Why many and not all? For the same reason many and not all Muslims use their holy text to advocate violence. Not the point. I don’t care what they “think” jesus would of said about violence. What did Jesus actually - say - about using violence. He said not to. Mohammed said the opposite. You can’t spin that man, both statements are facts. ---
**Author:** ![Sr\_Siete](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6de8d8/32.png) [@Sr\_Siete](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sr_Siete)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2015, 12:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741/138 "2015-09-12T12:32:40Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > - OT - many Christians keep the homosexuality is an abomination bit but disregard the more strenuous Hasidic type rules for the Sabbath. They can’t really do that though. The NT says for - salvation - all you need is faith (a point argued against by some christians) but as to the actual “rules” rules of the OT, Jesus says: While I get what you are saying, 1 - The “abomination” bit is NT. Paul wrote it. 2 - Still doesn’t explain how Jewish people, who don’t accept the NT have been, historically, generally way less warlike than Christians. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2015, 12:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741/139 "2015-09-12T12:34:38Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > Most Christians reject the OT\*. This is simply not true. In addition, most Christians reject practically everything Jesus said. They don’t give away all they own, they don’t love their enemies, they pray in public, and on and on. Christians believe in the OT more than they believe in the NT, because it reinforces their fear and justifies their hate. Jesus was a communist, a pacifist and a radical anti-establishment community organizer. What good christian would follow that? ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2015, 12:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741/140 "2015-09-12T12:43:30Z")
> [@Sr\_Siete](#): > > While I get what you are saying, > > 1 - The “abomination” bit is NT. Paul wrote it. > > 2 - Still doesn’t explain how Jewish people, who don’t accept the NT have been, historically, generally way less warlike than Christians. I thought it said abomination in the OT too. I will believe you if you say it was Paul only. > [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > This is simply not true. In addition, most Christians reject practically everything Jesus said. They don’t give away all they own, they don’t love their enemies, they pray in public, and on and on. Christians believe in the OT more than they believe in the NT, because it reinforces their fear and justifies their hate. Jesus was a communist, a pacifist and a radical anti-establishment community organizer. What good christian would follow that? On this we are in complete agreement. Well, 90% or more of them? 50? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741.md?page=8)