No, it’s because (again), it was a development of pre-existing religiously-motivated prejudices, and not something that suddenly appeared out of the blue in January 1933 for totally non-religious reasons.
There were many other camps (some in Germany) in which thousands upon thousands of Jews were killed, even if it wasn’t by the same methods as the extermination camps.
There are many individual Germans who acted heroically to protect Jews and others from the Nazis. Certainly not most Germans, but it was indeed possible to do so, even though it could be risky. That the German people did not rise up and eject the Nazis was a sign that, in general, they tolerated them and their goals. After all, they did elect the Nazi party to power.
Further, the German people did reject Nazi policies at times, with success. The Nazis attempted to ban crucifixes from schools in Bavaria, but widespread protests forced them to reverse this policy. They even successfully protested against the forced euthanasia of disabled people (Action T4), and these protests caused the Nazis to stop the policy. So the German people were capable of taking action to stop the Nazis from killing people – that they did not do so, in general, for the murder of Jews and other groups is a sign that this was tolerated by the population at large.
I already provided one. Here it is again. Hitler publicly forecast the extermination of the Jews. Germans were well aware of the periodic pogroms before the Holocaust, and events like Kristallnacht.
Now if you’re arguing that most Germans were probably unaware of the ultimate goal to kill every single Jewish man, woman, and child in Europe, then that is likely. But it’s pretty clear (to me, at least) that most Germans were aware that it was official Nazi policy to mistreat and kill Jews by the tens of thousand and more, and most Germans tolerated this. Considering the virulent anti-Semitism of the time, most Germans probably approved of mistreating and killing Jews in general.
The German people don’t bear the entire responsibility for the Holocaust, but they bear part of it, in my view. There were almost a million Germans in the SS – each one of them bears responsibility, as do everyone they told about the mistreatment and murder of Jews and other “undesirables”, along with the hundreds of thousands (if not millions) of non-SS Germans, military and civilian, who took part in the day-to-day operation of extermination camps, concentration camps, transportation of Jews, searches for hidden Jews, and all the other activities and bureaucracies and administrating that was necessary for murder on such a massive scale.
No, I get the point. The problem is, the point is astoundingly ignorant. The greater part of European history is concerned with Christians killing other Christians for specifically Christian reasons. Being unaware of that is basically like being unaware of the existence of Europe as a continent.
And yeah, the Nazis were a Christian party. That’s not really something that’s disputable, as I think you’ve amply demonstrated in this thread.
Neither Evans nor Browning ever claimed that Germans were in favor of the Holocaust. Evans claimed…claimed…that they were indifferent to it.
If you want to try to (falsely) link Christianity to Naziism then you should also link it to the positives that so-called christian nations have accomplished. Human rights? The abolition of slavery…which still exists in the Islamic world. The irradication of disease.
The I Know You Are But What Am I defense isnt valid.
I’d say it’s quite disputable - much like any populist party, the Nazis were whatever they needed to be to seize more power in the short term ; before flipping the tables once they could just point a gun at people.
In their later days they had a very Stockholm Syndrome-like relationship to their own people : “they’re terrible and they might kill us at any time for any reason if we somehow triggered them (and there are so many triggers, few of which even make any sense any more !) ; and every day is an endless spiral of fear and despair and regret but… on good days, sometimes, they look like they might genuinely care and not hurt us so much !”
The shakers and movers of the Party weren’t personally religious in the least, anyway - be it in terms or faith or mechanical ritual. Hitler himself seems to have oscillated between harsh anti-clericalism, seething hatred of the principles of Christianity and vague disdain of the Christian sheeple ; depending on the chronicler, the day of the week or the phases of the Moon. At best he (and the Nazis) mollified German Christians.
But then that’s really, but REALLY neither here nor there wrt the object of this thread. If y’alls want abjectly warlike devout Christians I’ll give you heaps of 'em at the drop of a sword.
Correct, what I meant to say was that the violence associated with religion. (following the OP)
Great, but that isn’t what I said. Germany was a Christian nation, in the same way that the U.S., France, Mexico, and Canada all are. The majority of the people there self-identified as Christian.
By focusing only on the Nazis, you distort what I said, altering the meaning and context. This is shabby debate technique (alas, the coin-of-the-realm for this thread.)
Also true, but not a rebuttal to what I said. Germany was a Christian nation, yet still engaged in mass murder and war. If the OP is to be believed, the religion is the cause of the horror.
You know that isn’t so. I know it isn’t so. Take it up with the OP, please.
That, too, alas. If the wrongs committed by a people are due to the religion they practice, then Christianity is as dirty as any other.
The OP’s main failing is excessive particularization, claiming that Islam is absolutely unique in this. The OP fails historically, and even fails today, for overlooking the huge majority of Muslims who are not violent.
I’m amazed anyone is still debating for that viewpoint here any longer: it’s been exploded from hell to craptown.
Even that is seriously questionable. Quick quizz : When an ISIS mook kills a Kurd irregular, is it a) religious violence b) ethnic violence c) nationalistic violence d) survival violence e) all of the above f) none of the above g) Thunderdome ? Now the trick question : when a Kurd irregular kills an ISIS mook, is it… ?
Whoever compiles the stats gets to determine that, for each observed population (or even individual incident). Stats and numbers are worthless on their own. Absolute numbers are nothing like absolute.
And yet a Christian nation elected them to office. The Nazi party was not really a majority of Germans, (who were majority Christian), but the German people embraced the politics of the Nazis. WWII and the Holocaust were not the result of Christian propaganda and the Nazis at the very top tended to be either atheist or some odd form of neo-pagan, harkening back to a Teutonic religion that never existed. However, their appeals to the German people made wide use of appeals to Christian beliefs and relied on a long history of hostility to non-Christians, (Jews, Roma, (generally regarded as pagans)), and to people condemned by Christianity, (homosexuals).
No. the Nazis did not point to the bible and say “Here is a passage that promotes Fascism.” However, the notion that Christianity did not play a role in establishing the society that could so easily embrace the Nazis is simply not supported by facts.
Aisha’s posts are not opposed in the manner that the OP has been opposed because while one might quibble over specific statements, the thrust of her argument is historically accurate.
Time to head to the library Miller. The Nazis neither used christian ideology or symbols. They werent interested in old christian feuds. Their country was split down the middle catholic/protestant. If anything the Nazis harkened to Germanys pre christian roots and values. And since my point is so ignorant perhaps you could give a few examples of christianities effects on Naziism.
The German catholics had the Center Party. Protestants were spread out over the political spectrum. The Nazis were christian like the Baathists are an Islamic party.
You keep spinning farther and farther away from the thread. The Nazis weren’t running around yelling God is Great or anything else based on any religion. None of which has even the slightest relevance to the never ending daily slaughter committed by Muslims today. That violence is based on the words and deeds of Mohammad.
Just what Nazi beliefs appealed to christian beliefs? They appealed to their base on themes of national redemption, militarism and a bizarre sort of racial socialism. Where is the christianity in there?
And if christianity could establish a society that embraced Naziism…why didnt it happen elsewhere? Was the USSR a christian nation? They like the Nazis basically embraced athiesm while their people were personally religious. They killed millions. But on a completly different set of beliefs.
Now if I follow you 3, christianity set the foundation that allowed Naziism to flourish. Can we not then say that Islam set the foundation that allowed Europes first genocide…that of the Armenians…to flourish? BTW…Hitler specifically told his leaders that since the world did nothing to stop the Armenian Genocide they would do nothing about his genocide either. Adolf Hitler -- Statement on the Armenian Genocide
Gott Mit Uns. Kinder, Kirche, Küche (which actually predates the Nazis but hey, as we say in France, “it is in old pots that the best soups are made”). Luther as a nationalist, rallying figure of Pure Germany versus Decadent Corrupt Europe (again, already used by Bismarck, but re-used by the Nazis without even filing the serial numbers). The foundation of the DEK, along with the rise of the Deutscher Christen. Chaplains in the Wehrmacht.
Either you were wholly ignorant of all of those things (in which case, well, now you aren’t :o), or you conveniently wiped them under a rug, which just won’t do. It’s those tall church spires, they poke out… 
Also obviously, all of the ceremonial ritual around the party and the Führer were wholly lifted from Christian shit, simply rejiggering the meaning and symbolism around a bit. The solemn processions, the big drapes hanging from high places, Hitler’s fire-and-brimstone style of preaching, the bombastic and monumental architecture, the somber funereal marches… None of that would have hit the Germans - or would remain striking to us, today ! - that bad if it did not tug straight at nerves that had already been well-exercized by Christian rituals, semiotics and memes (in the original sense of the word, as far as I’m aware neither the Church nor the Nazis made much notable use of captioned cat pictures).
Finally, it’s equally obvious that many, many conservative Germans (which, then as now, also corresponded to the most god-bothering crowd) wholly supported the Reich if only because it opposed the godless commies who simply couldn’t be allowed to corrupt the minds of German youth and the proper (hence godly) order of society. And the various churches were, for the most part, totally down with that sort of thinking. Say what you will about that mister Hitler, but at least…etc.
Bottomline : the Nazis themselves might have been ambiguous to hostile about Christianity as a concept (and Catholicism in particular - virulent competition over cool hats, methinks), but the notion that they were wholly divorced from it is quite baffling.
You do realize they kind of had a thing about Them Jews, right ? You know, the Christ-killers ? That have been oppressed and persecuted and badmouthed in Christian kingdoms from the VIIIth century (or thereabouts) to the… shit, the *today *?
Let me napkin math that one. Let’s see, Christian times Christian, carry the Christian…
So, you claim to be unaware of Luther’s anti-semitism and its persistence in German thought?
Twisting my words fails to make your point. I have not said that Christianity “established” the Nazis. I say that Christian culture laid a groundwork in society on which the Nazis could operate. The church(es) did far too little to argue against the hatred of Jews and homosexuals. (And Orthodox Christianity is still an aspect of Christianity and, while it went underground during the Soviet era, it certainly played a role in the treatment of Jews in the Soviet Union. Now that the U.S.S.R. has fallen, people like Putin have made open appeals to resurgent Orthodox thoughts–antisemitism and homophobia among them.)
So? I have no problem with noting that aspects of Islamic culture allowed the Turks to massacre Armenians. (Of course, calling the Armenian genocide the “first in Europe” requires a narrow definition when we consider the actions taken against the Jews in the Rhineland Massacres, during the first Crusade, (failing to reach “genocide” levels only because the Crusaders lacked the men to complete their attempts), but it is consistent with the level of historical awareness you are displaying.)
Beyond that, you again are trying to attribute opinions to me that I have not expressed. I have made no claim that Christianity “allowed Naziism to flourish.” I noted only that one aspect of the Nazi agenda was successfully built on views widely held in Germany, (and Europe), that were part and parcel of Christian culture.
Well, there’s that state church they tried to found. There’s this quote, earlier cited by Aish’a, from the Nazi party platform: "The Party as such upholds the point of view of a positive Christianity without tying itself confessionally to any one confession. " At the Nuremburg rallies, they distributed tracts written by Martin Luther. And, of course, there’s the enormous amount of Christian symbolism used by the Nazis, including Christmas ornaments, children’s books depicting the crucifiction, and the Mother’s Cross, given to women who supported the Reich by having a lot of kids.
I mean, just for starters. It’s pretty easy to find a lot more on the subject, but you need to look further than Indiana Jones movies for your history if you want a complete picture.
Dachau was a work camp rather than an extermination camp. Many people were murdered there, but it was not set up specifically to kill people.
The actual extermination camps such as Auschwitz were set up outside Germany. The level of specific knowledge that the majority of German people had of the extermination camps is debated, but the fact that the extermination camps were outside the German borders has been put forth as a reason why the general populace was purported to be unaware of the events that occurred there.
And “positive Christianity” was more than just a phrase, it was the label for the particularly Nazi Christian theology created and promoted by the Party in which Naziism was reflected through the lens of Christianity and vice versa.
Actually, I recommend Steigmann-Gall’s book for a good exploration of just how intertwined Christianity and Nazisim were during the Third Reich.
Folks, please stop debating this.
The Reich atrocities were due to German culture.
Nazism, like Islam, does not breed evil ideas.
Jihad, Solution…these are just words.