Um, it says not to fight unless others fight you first. And the previous surah reads:
Fight in the way of Allah those who fight you but do not transgress. Indeed. Allah does not like transgressors.
I’m no scholar of Islam, but that reads like an admonition not to initiate violence, but to fight back hard when attacked…which is how my father taught me how to act, and I wouldn’t call him a violent man.
This is why I said that your post above was a red herring, since you’re right back to this.
What does the Bible say about unbelievers and the treatment thereof, Robert?
Only when it comes to Islam, apparently. Christianity, on the other hand, gets a pass from you no matter how many violent passages there are in its scriptures.
oh
well, ok, let’s narrow the focus a bit:
And kill them wherever you overtake them
Yes, I am back to what I consider, being an Infidel, to be THE ONLY relevant passage in the Koran.
And that is, in fact, the position of the majority of Islamic scholars of the Hanbali, Hanafi, and Maliki schools (with the additional caveat that, even in times of war, non-combatants are not to be targeted or killed).
Since you are not a Qurayshi polytheist living in 7th century Mecca, that verse does not apply to you.
Is that what you’re reduced to? In this snippet of a surah, Islam says to kill people who try to kill you, therefore it is evil?
Even in this majority-Christian land of ours, it’s legally and morally acceptable to kill people who try to kill you.
PEW POLL
Should Sharia Apply to All Citizens
Among Muslims who support making sharia the law of the land, most do not believe that it should be applied to non-Muslims. Only in five of 21 countries where this follow-up question was asked do at least half say all citizens should be subject to Islamic law.
Penalty for adultery
In 10 of 20 countries where there are adequate samples for analysis, **at least half **of Muslims who favor making sharia the law of the land also favor stoning unfaithful spouses
Penalties for Apostasy
Compared with attitudes toward applying sharia in the domestic or criminal spheres, Muslims in the countries surveyed are significantly less supportive of the death penalty for converts.19 Nevertheless, in six of the 20 countries where there are adequate samples for analysis, at least half of those who favor making Islamic law the official law also support executing apostates.
I see no question specifically asking about Infidels. But given the proposed fates of Adulterers and Apostates I do not like my chances. Seriously, it looks very scary.
NOTE: at least half and the stonings mean half the people who beleive in Shariah also beleive in stonings. Not, half the people in that country. Still, even a small percentage of people who want to stone me is scary.
Is this what you are reduced too, ignoring 1 & 4 and focusing exclusively on 2 & 3?
1- Kill them (infidels) wherever you overtake them
2- Expel those who have expelled you
3- but only fight those who fight you
4- Such (death) is the fate of the unbelievers
Yes, there’s nothing there about infidels, so you had to go digging and cherrypicking to find something else to try and prop up your position on Islam, since your existing arguments certainly aren’t cutting it and are getting torn to pieces.
And the Pew polls you linked to, despite your cherrypicking, still don’t do a very good job of supporting your arguments.
Unless they’re Christian, like the Reconstructionists in America. Then you don’t care.
Why not? You’re reduced to ignoring 2 and 3 and focusing exclusively on 1 and 4.
That’s not how sentences work. Each must be read in context with the others. Such as the preceding surah, already quoted, or the next one:
And if they cease, then indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful.
It plainly says to fight back hard against your attackers, unless and until they surrender. I can hardly imagine a less controversial statement (outside of pacifists).
This is not cherrypikcing. It is stating the amount of people who believe the death penalty, stoning, is the appropriate penalty for breaking the rules of your religion.
If, 60% of the people in a country believe in Sharia Law, but only 40% believe it should be Law for non Muslims, if HALF of those believe in stoning, that mans 20% of the country believe stoning is the appropriate punishment for ANYONE who breaks the law. Whatever serious law that is.
Apparently you do not know me, Robert163, very well, at all. I hate Christianity - almost - as much as Islam. Probably more! Because I am surrounded by Christians. I live in what is called “The Bible Belt” of my country.
and what if they don’t cease? cease disbelieving?
No, I’m not ignoring 2&3, I have no problem with 2&3.
I HAVE A VERY BIG PROBLEM WITH 1&4.
And that still represents a minority of Muslims.
You certainly haven’t evinced that in any of your posts in this thread.
Per the Qur’an, the polytheists who surrender are to be escorted to a place of safety or returned to their homes. If they’re captured as prisoners of war, then once hostilities have ended they can be exchanged for Muslim prisoners, or simply released freely.
From the context (there’s that word again), it appears to mean “cease attacking”. That is, it’s ok or even mandatory to kill your attackers, but if they surrender, show them mercy and forgiveness as Allah would.
Again, not a scholar of the subject, but that’s what I get from the text.
Why? Not only is it a standard “fight back against those who attack you until they stop attacking you” statement, it isn’t even talking about you or people like you.
It’s like getting freaked out about what the American military might do to you tomorrow because of their demands for unconditional surrender of Germany in World War II.
Ok, 20% of the people in a predominantly Muslim country supporting the death penalty Stoning) for all major infractions is a pretty sizable minority. Pretty scary. Very, very scary actually.
No, I have not
What about the polytheists who don’t want to surrender?
It’s definitely problematic, particularly for the people in those countries, but the only reason to find it “scary” if you’re an American is, well, literal Islamophobia.
You do know how wars work, right?