I know I’ve posted a link to this book on this site before; however, I can’t seem to find that post. A. J. Jacobs wrote The Year of Living Biblically: One Man’s Humble Quest to Follow the Bible as Literally as Possible. One of the things he discovered is something that’s been known for quite some time, IMHO: It is not possible to follow the Bible (either the Old or New Testament alone, nor the two together) literally. I’d be surprised if the same were not true for the Qur’an or any other faith’s scriptures.
Thanks, that gives some context for your position. You believe that Mohammad’s use of force was not justified under the circumstances. I reasonably disagree, and thus don’t consider him a warmonger, or a bloodthirsty barbarian. History is full of those, and they don’t act the way Mohammad did.
That’s wholly besides my point.
My point is that when you describe something you see in Alabama and say it’s “what Christians believe” or “how Christians think/act”, without further clarification or qualification of the specific group you’re actually talking about ; then your reader will understand that you’re talking about all Christians because that’s how the English language works, and from there think you either an ignorant or a looney because the behaviours you’re talking about are only representative a small minority of Christians.
Similarly, when you accuse “Muslims” of enforcing burqas for example, that comes off as either ignorant or deliberately mendacious. Because burqas are only a Thing in a small part of Afghanistan & northern Pakistan and I’m not sure it even still is there since the Taliban were sort of dealt with ; and some localized communities in India. The overwhelming majority of Muslims across the world look at the practice in puzzled incomprehension at best.
Jesusfuckinchrist , this thread is still going on? And not a novel thought expressed yet.
Still going on?
You’re the first post in nearly two weeks.
Afghanistan, Pakistan and Saudi Arabia. I’d say that is 3 places too many.
And do you really think that women would be wearing Burkas if The Koran said: “Treat women exactly the same, make no distinction” instead of instructing women to be modest?
BTW - In how many Muslim countries is it common for a woman to wear a Hijab? What about the social dictate where a woman can not be alone in a room with a man unless it is her father or husband or uncle. I’m not sure about uncles, is that allowed? This was probably very common 100 years ago, right? Has the Koran changed in the last 100 years? Did Mohammed come back and give us an update?
BTW2- Why did you not mention Hijabs? Why was that left to me? Surely you know of their existence. Perhaps you were being mendacious.
Since the old pre-islamic culture practices that are effectively forbidden in the Quran still are practiced by the Taleban and even defended, yes, as it is more about the Pakhtun culture than about the Islam.
why do you care? I do not wear the hidjab nor am I convinced it is required, but some do. Covering the hair offends you why? It is nothing more than a different form of control you seek it seems to me.
Social dictates among hindus, among pagans - yes other cultures have different practices than americans. Olala!
Mendacious? Irrelevant, knowing better. Why you think the mere fact of hidjab is an issue is simply ignorance.
What do I think?
I think a woman’s testimony in court should be equal to that of a man. I think a woman should obey her own conscience instead of obeying her husband or her father. I think even moderate Islam when practiced in the middle east is incredibly sexist, even in 2015. I think that the fact that a woman in an Islamic culture, now, in 2015 can have a job… is indication of one thing: how horribly sexist and oppressive it was in the past, if, having a job is a giant leap forward into progress.
I think 100 years ago, 500 years ago the amount of sexism and oppression of women was on a scale that we today in 2015 would consider appalling and barbaric. I think, the founder of your religion, who treated women as slaves and as de facto property was a HORRIBLE human being. A murder and a thief and a slaver and an all around horrible human being. I’m sure his “rhetoric” was very noble… I’m talking about his actions and his commands.
That’s what I think.
Super moumtaz, I’m happy you are able to make such fine lists of stereotypes and manage to resist any information. Further sterile repetition is boring, just leave us alone.
What else do I think?
I think that the people who defend Islam and The Koran and Mohammed are never going to admit that Islam, The Koran, or Mohammed are in any way wrong about anything. Oh, sure, there will be a brief tacit admittance that something is wrong… followed, quite often in the same sentence, with the explanation that “lots of people did bad things back then” or “well lot’s of other cultures do bad things too.”
That is like a two sided record that keeps getting played over and over here.
Side A: Well almost everyone was bad and evil way back then
Side B: Well, lot’s of other cultures do bad stuff too you know!!!
I’m sorry if you do not like my comments. If your religion is important to you you probably don’t want people saying bad things about it or making judgements. But sometimes criticism is warranted, sometimes criticism is accurate.
I’m going to criticize bad governments, I’m going to criticize bad philosophies, I’m going to criticize harmful practices, injustice, exploitation, oppression, poverty, sexism, racism and, yes, religion too. Religion does not get a pass from criticism just because it is held sacred by so many.
Right. Because you are going to deny that Mohammed was a slave trader and a bandit? That his troops murdered 12 people when he invaded Mecca?
See, I’m not the problem and I’m not ignorant. I’m actually talking about what actually happened. This is not a stereotype. Those things actually happened.
I’m sure you would prefer that I “leave you alone”.
So, 100 years ago could a woman in an Islamic culture hold a job? 500 Years ago? 1400?
Does not the Koran say that she is to obey her husband? Does not the Koran say one man’s testimony equals that of two women?
Is this a list of stereotypes or is it a list of factual statements?
Yes a list of stereotypes, half facts, falsehoods, and misunderstandings. I do not see any point in trying to correct your prejudices and what you think you know after these 24 pages of a deaf dialogue.
Why Khadija is erased from this prejudiced dialogue… well I suppose the conclusion needs to have its strawmen.
All of which is irrelevant to the main argument in this thread, which is that Islam is exceptional. It’s not, and I’m not rehashing the arguments demonstrating this which you’ve already ignored and/or misrepresented numerous times in this thread.
So am iI getting this right, people are arguing that slavery is good because Mohammed had slaves and the Quran says it’s OK ?
Can one muslim enslave another muslim, or does the slavery have to be along racial or cultural lines ?
I don’t know much about 500 and 1400 years ago, but 100 years ago certainly. For one, to Islamic West Africa and you will find women entirely in charge of marketing milk and milk products, same as today. There is a rich history of Muslim female warriors, politicians, scholars, artists and craftspeople.
Where in this thread has anyone said such a thing?
Yes of course, Khadidja herself was an important merchant and it has always been the islamic law that the husband has no dominion over the wife’s assets or the wife’s business. There is sadly the customary law (3urf) that has overridden the quranic injunction in different places and times, which is a reason why “quranism” is popular among the feminist interpretation to even strip away the acculation of the many doubtful pseudo-ahadith.
It has to be said it is more common to see the economic role
The wikipedia providessome corrective to the simplistic, ignorant stereotype views.
Of course different times and places would have different balances.
but the Saudi vision, it is not real return to salaf roots, it is in fact innovation - a great irony of the salafistes in that they are such radical innovators although dressing it up in the discourse that says the opposite.
I’ll defend Islam from erroneous slander, the same way I’d defend anything. However, I don’t endorse the practice of Islam, or any other religion.
When your claim is that Islam or Mohammad are/were uniquely awful and/or worse in some way than other religions, those are legitimate counterarguments. You don’t get to define them as bad arguments by fiat, just because they undermine your thesis. Sorry.
You aren’t criticizing “religion”, though, you are criticizing Islam. You’ve only mentioned other religions to trumpet them as being superior to Islam. Your argument is indistinguishable from proselytizing for Christianity, which is (in part) why your criticism of Islam has been such a failure (your ignorance has also contributed, of course).
Guy in previous post said Mohammed was quite nice to his slaves. Did he have slaves ?
Says here in wikipedia
Why couldn’t women have sex slaves too ?
[URL=“Islamic views on slavery - Wikipedia”]