# If right-wing conservativism is so great, why do their states suck? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 3, 2013, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-right-wing-conservativism-is-so-great-why-do-their-states-suck/670301 "2013-10-03T22:04:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2013, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-right-wing-conservativism-is-so-great-why-do-their-states-suck/670301/41 "2013-10-04T15:25:44Z")
Why this assumption that the metrics liberals are using are just based on urbanization? City life or country, more education is generally better than less education, for instance, but red states tend to be less educated. And I’ve never heard of anywhere in the world where living longer is considered a bad thing. ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2013, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-right-wing-conservativism-is-so-great-why-do-their-states-suck/670301/42 "2013-10-04T15:35:31Z")
> [@Bridget\_Burke](#): > > _Real_ Big City (4th largest in the country) Liberal here. If you look at a [non-idiotic map](http://politicker.com/2012/11/the-purple-election-map/)of the 2012 election you’ll see that the Red State/Blue State dichotomy is simplistic–it’s only meaningful for counting Electoral Votes. Please note that our cities tend Blue, as do the sparsely settled Border counties. > > Texas Democrats certainly have our work cut out for us. We’ll gladly support [Wendy Davis for Governor](http://www.texasobserver.org/three-reasons-wendy-davis-can-win-three-reasons-cant/), even though it’s been a long time since Anne Richardson held the office. [Joaquin Castro](http://www.burntorangereport.com/diary/14164/house-democrats-unveil-immigration-reform-bill-pressure-house-gop-to-do-their-job) has been rumored to have an eye on the loathsome Ted Cruz’s Senate seat, although that’s years away. His [twin brother Julian](http://www.mysanantonio.com/news/local/article/Update-Castro-answers-racist-tweet-on-Texas-4668262.php) is doing well as mayor of San Antonio & may have a bigger future, too. > > In the meantime, we’ve got a lovely autumn & a mild winter coming after our famously hellish summer. My mayor, US Rep, State Senator & State Rep are all Democrats; Mayor Parker is also a lesbian. > > The state has vegetarians, vegans, observant Jews & a growing Muslim population. But, yes, lots of us do eat pork. Haven’t you ever tried [carnitas](http://www.homesicktexan.com/2008/07/carnitas-houston-style.html)? Nitpick: Houston is not a city, it is a strip mall. ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2013, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-right-wing-conservativism-is-so-great-why-do-their-states-suck/670301/43 "2013-10-04T15:36:56Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > To be honest, I’m not sure I completely understand the source of Tea Party rage. Do they reserve the same rage for Wall Street types as they do for Big Government? The root of the Tea Party rage is the same as the anger expressed here toward red staters sucking off the government teat. We work hard to make money and one third to one half of it goes to the government to buy votes for politicians and support people who don’t work. It is great that the economic refugees from liberalism can move to red states, but Washington is trying to turn the whole country into a blue state. Higher taxes, higher spending, higher regulations, until the whole country is California. Where are we going to move then? Up into Canada with those poutine eating hockey lovers? shouldn’t that enrage people? ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2013, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-right-wing-conservativism-is-so-great-why-do-their-states-suck/670301/44 "2013-10-04T15:41:39Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > As California shows, even states rich in energy resources can still fail if the government tries hard enough. The main problem in California was the real estate bust, which was caused by too little government regulation. Since they have a Democratic governor and super majorities in the legislature, they have their house in order. ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2013, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-right-wing-conservativism-is-so-great-why-do-their-states-suck/670301/45 "2013-10-04T16:05:50Z")
> [@madmonk28](#): > > Nitpick: Houston is not a city, it is a strip mall. Well, your profile says you live in Washington DC. Lots of Our Tax Dollars have gone to build nice buildings in that fair city. Wasn’t your Metro mostly subsidized by the rest of the country, too? ---
**Author:** ![Sattua](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sattua/32/11906_2.png) [@Sattua](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sattua)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2013, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-right-wing-conservativism-is-so-great-why-do-their-states-suck/670301/46 "2013-10-04T16:09:21Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > Where are we going to move then? Up into Canada with those poutine eating hockey lovers? … with their public health care? ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2013, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-right-wing-conservativism-is-so-great-why-do-their-states-suck/670301/47 "2013-10-04T16:30:28Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > The main problem in California was the real estate bust, which was caused by too little government regulation. Since they have a Democratic governor and super majorities in the legislature, they have their house in order. So your story is that starting in 1990 people knew that there was going to be a housing bust in 2007 and starting leaving in droves in anticipation? California housing is some of the most regulated in the country. It is one of the worst states in the country to build houses in thanks to smart growth regulations and green space regulations. Because of this home prices have skyrocketed. The median income in California is 5.2% higher than the national average. The median value of a home in California is 76.8% higher than the national average. Thus the real estate bust hit California the hardest due to California’s housing policies. California does not have its house in order. They have raised taxes to close the deficits, but they still have 132 billion dollars in debt. That does not include the public pension liabilties which are [estimated](http://www.arc.asm.ca.gov/budgetfactcheck/?p_id=299) at 485 billion dollars. They already have the highest income taxes in the land, and the 11th highest total tax rate in the country. The only thing keeping them from the top tax rate is low taxes on land which were written into the constitution when republicans were in charge. For all these taxes, California has three of the top ten cities for traffic so they must not be spending the money on roads and two of the top ten cities in crime rate so they must not be spending the money on cops. It has below average schools and does the worse job in the country of educating hispanic students so the money must not be going to schools. If you adjust for cost of living California has the highest poverty rate in the country. I would hardly say that California has its house in order. ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2013, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-right-wing-conservativism-is-so-great-why-do-their-states-suck/670301/48 "2013-10-04T16:33:15Z")
I live in San Antonio, TX and the part of the state that “sucks” is apparently elsewhere as we love it here. ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2013, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-right-wing-conservativism-is-so-great-why-do-their-states-suck/670301/49 "2013-10-04T16:58:58Z")
> [@Bridget\_Burke](#): > > Well, your profile says you live in Washington DC. Lots of Our Tax Dollars have gone to build nice buildings in that fair city. Wasn’t your Metro mostly subsidized by the rest of the country, too? You mean like the nice building where we don’t have any representation? Look, as an East Coast Liberal, I’m happy to be paying more in taxes to support the federally subsidized “rugged individualism” of my neighbors to the south. I just wish they would say thank you every once in a while and maybe not try to pit Jesus in our science classes. ---
**Author:** ![bouv](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bc8723/32.png) [@bouv](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bouv)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2013, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-right-wing-conservativism-is-so-great-why-do-their-states-suck/670301/50 "2013-10-04T17:04:07Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > Up into Canada with those poutine eating hockey lovers? shouldn’t that enrage people? Uhh…yes, please? It’s ironic so many Tea Partiers/conservatives make fun/hate the idea of the US being like Canada, despite the fact that in some ways, it’s exactly what they want. A much smaller federal government with more control being in the hands of the provincial governments. Oh, but they have _socialized medicine_ and that’s bad in every way, shape, or form. Right. :rolleyes: > [@HoneyBadgerDC](#): > > I live in California and it is pure utopia. (NOT) I live in Vermont and it is pure utopia. (TRUE.) ---
**Author:** ![MostlyUseless](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@MostlyUseless](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MostlyUseless)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2013, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-right-wing-conservativism-is-so-great-why-do-their-states-suck/670301/51 "2013-10-04T17:31:28Z")
Those of us here in the south and love it too. We would prefer yall just stay where you are. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2013, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-right-wing-conservativism-is-so-great-why-do-their-states-suck/670301/52 "2013-10-04T17:33:52Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > The root of the Tea Party rage is the same as the anger expressed here toward red staters sucking off the government teat. We work hard to make money and one third to one half of it goes to the government to buy votes for politicians and support people who don’t work. > It is great that the economic refugees from liberalism can move to red states, but Washington is trying to turn the whole country into a blue state. Higher taxes, higher spending, higher regulations, until the whole country is California. Where are we going to move then? Up into Canada with those poutine eating hockey lovers? shouldn’t that enrage people? I can’t tell if you’re being sarcastic. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2013, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-right-wing-conservativism-is-so-great-why-do-their-states-suck/670301/53 "2013-10-04T17:36:18Z")
> [@Greg\_Charles](#): > > [The Master speaks.](http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/3033/are-blue-states-smarter-than-red-states) That’s about IQ or “intelligence” at least, not about how well the systems work. I am not a right winger but the question fails in many other ways. If we presume that “right wing” means a stated wish for small Federal Government with more local control when control is needed at all (a _big_ presumption since “right wing” means many different things depending on who is saying it) then one can clearly see that what they want does not change the fact that what they want does not change that they still get decisions made elsewhere. Also, someone who believes that the Federal government should bug out may have no problem with the state or the district doing similar things. And that is if we presume that. Right wing means other things too. Hence the current civil war in the GOP. Also correlation is not causation. Being rural and fundamentalist is correlated with poorer outcomes on the variety metrics listed in the op (education, income, etc.) and is correlated with endorsing conservative views. But that in no way means that being conservative caused the poorer outcomes. ---
**Author:** ![MostlyUseless](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@MostlyUseless](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MostlyUseless)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2013, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-right-wing-conservativism-is-so-great-why-do-their-states-suck/670301/54 "2013-10-04T17:42:15Z")
Has the OP ever actually been to those RED states? It seems silly to make such wide ranging claims against a way of life that they might know nothing about. ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2013, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-right-wing-conservativism-is-so-great-why-do-their-states-suck/670301/55 "2013-10-04T17:49:23Z")
> [@bouv](#): > > Uhh…yes, please? > > It’s ironic so many Tea Partiers/conservatives make fun/hate the idea of the US being like Canada, despite the fact that in some ways, it’s exactly what they want. A much smaller federal government with more control being in the hands of the provincial governments. > > Oh, but they have _socialized medicine_ and that’s bad in every way, shape, or form. Right. :rolleyes: The ironic thing is that liberals continue to love Canada even though it saw liberalism not working and abandoned it. They had a large deficit and a huge amount of debt just like the US does, but instead of trying to spend their way out of debt they cut government programs. They cut government spending on programs 14% less in only three years. This allowed them to have a surplus, pay down the debt and cut taxes. Now Canada has lower federal taxes on high incomes, lower capital gains taxes, lower corporate taxes, and lower payroll taxes. That is why when the liberals take over the red states we will have to move to Canada to find sane governance. The bad thing will be having to shiver in line at Tim Horton’s with some hoser in a Nordiques jersey trying to talk to you aboot the forechecking in the game last night. ---
**Author:** ![suranyi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e36b37/32.png) [@suranyi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/suranyi)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2013, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-right-wing-conservativism-is-so-great-why-do-their-states-suck/670301/56 "2013-10-04T17:53:00Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > So your story is that starting in 1990 people knew that there was going to be a housing bust in 2007 and starting leaving in droves in anticipation? > California housing is some of the most regulated in the country. It is one of the worst states in the country to build houses in thanks to smart growth regulations and green space regulations. Because of this home prices have skyrocketed. The median income in California is 5.2% higher than the national average. The median value of a home in California is 76.8% higher than the national average. Thus the real estate bust hit California the hardest due to California’s housing policies. > California does not have its house in order. They have raised taxes to close the deficits, but they still have 132 billion dollars in debt. That does not include the public pension liabilties which are [estimated](http://www.arc.asm.ca.gov/budgetfactcheck/?p_id=299) at 485 billion dollars. > They already have the highest income taxes in the land, and the 11th highest total tax rate in the country. The only thing keeping them from the top tax rate is low taxes on land which were written into the constitution when republicans were in charge. For all these taxes, California has three of the top ten cities for traffic so they must not be spending the money on roads and two of the top ten cities in crime rate so they must not be spending the money on cops. It has below average schools and does the worse job in the country of educating hispanic students so the money must not be going to schools. If you adjust for cost of living California has the highest poverty rate in the country. > I would hardly say that California has its house in order. California has not “failed” and will not fail. It has issues, primarily because it is so big. But it will get through them. I live in California and I am doing fine. I wouldn’t live anywhere else. ---
**Author:** ![sachertorte](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sachertorte/32/3727_2.png) [@sachertorte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sachertorte)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2013, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-right-wing-conservativism-is-so-great-why-do-their-states-suck/670301/57 "2013-10-04T17:58:16Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > This is not really true. Texas and Utah are very red state that pay more in than they take out. California, Washington, Oregon, Massachusetts all pay less than they take out. Is that true? I’ve smugly believed that Massachusetts paid more in federal taxes than it spends for quite a while now. I tried to google it: > **[Federal taxation and spending by state](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_taxation_and_spending_by_state)** > > The ability of the United States government to tax and spend in specific regions has large implications to economic activity and performance. Taxes are indexed to wages and profits and therefore areas of high taxation are correlated with areas of higher per capita income and more economic activity. > Spending is largely focused on areas of poverty, the elderly, and centers of federal employment such as military bases. > The ability of the government to tax and spend in specific regions has large i... Texas pays more, Utah spends more. California and Washington and Massachusetts pay more. Oregon spends more. Of course it is wikipedia and the “neutrality of this section is in dispute” so who knows what _that_ means. I did not read further on the topic, but that’s all I have to go on for now. Do you have a source for your assertion? ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2013, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-right-wing-conservativism-is-so-great-why-do-their-states-suck/670301/58 "2013-10-04T18:13:17Z")
> [@madmonk28](#): > > You mean like the nice building where we don’t have any representation? Look, as an East Coast Liberal, I’m happy to be paying more in taxes to support the federally subsidized “rugged individualism” of my neighbors to the south. I just wish they would say thank you every once in a while and maybe not try to pit Jesus in our science classes. According to the chart found [here](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_taxation_and_spending_by_state), Texas contributes more than it spends. DC? Check it out for yourself. If you can find better figures, please provide a link. I understand the temptation to see “Flyover Country” or “Outside the Beltway” as simplistic blobs of Red & Blue, but the reality is a bit more complex. Not _every_ person in The Red States is a racist, redneck Republican. And not _every_ Blue Stater is a sophisticated, urbane Democrat. ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2013, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-right-wing-conservativism-is-so-great-why-do-their-states-suck/670301/59 "2013-10-04T18:17:10Z")
> [@suranyi](#): > > California has not “failed” and will not fail. It has issues, primarily because it is so big. But it will get through them. > > I live in California and I am doing fine. I wouldn’t live anywhere else. There are many great things about California, the wonderful beaches, the beatiful redwood trees, the breathtaking Yosemite Park, the best climate on the continent, the most beautiful city in the country, some of the best soil in the country, some of the best wine making in the world, DisneyLand, the best ports on the west coast, great universities, the most offshore oil on either coast, Hollywood, Silicon Valley, on and on. But yet the state and munincipal governments have managed to take all those advantages and make California a place where millions of people have left and is only maintaining its population through immigration. California used to be the best state in the country at attracting people to live in it and now the only it way it attacts people is by being slightly better than Mexico. ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2013, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-right-wing-conservativism-is-so-great-why-do-their-states-suck/670301/60 "2013-10-04T18:23:50Z")
> [@sachertorte](#): > > Is that true? I’ve smugly believed that Massachusetts paid more in federal taxes than it spends for quite a while now. I tried to google it: > [Federal taxation and spending by state - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_taxation_and_spending_by_state) > > Texas pays more, Utah spends more. > California and Washington and Massachusetts pay more. Oregon spends more. > > Of course it is wikipedia and the “neutrality of this section is in dispute” so who knows what _that_ means. > > I did not read further on the topic, but that’s all I have to go on for now. Do you have a source for your assertion? I was using [this](http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/give-take-small-final.png)map from Talking Points Memo. It is at odds with Wikipedia and I guess it depends on how you measure things. Taking another look at Massachusetts it appears I was looking at Rhode Island before, Massachusetts is actually the second in the country at getting the least money back for its tax money. How do you like them apples? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-right-wing-conservativism-is-so-great-why-do-their-states-suck/670301.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-right-wing-conservativism-is-so-great-why-do-their-states-suck/670301.md?page=4)