# If right-wing conservativism is so great, why do their states suck? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 3, 2013, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-right-wing-conservativism-is-so-great-why-do-their-states-suck/670301 "2013-10-03T22:04:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![suranyi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e36b37/32.png) [@suranyi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/suranyi)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2013, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-right-wing-conservativism-is-so-great-why-do-their-states-suck/670301/61 "2013-10-04T18:46:36Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > There are many great things about California, the wonderful beaches, the beatiful redwood trees, the breathtaking Yosemite Park, the best climate on the continent, the most beautiful city in the country, some of the best soil in the country, some of the best wine making in the world, DisneyLand, the best ports on the west coast, great universities, the most offshore oil on either coast, Hollywood, Silicon Valley, on and on. But yet the state and munincipal governments have managed to take all those advantages and make California a place where millions of people have left and is only maintaining its population through immigration. > California used to be the best state in the country at attracting people to live in it and now the only it way it attacts people is by being slightly better than Mexico. Silicon Valley still attracts lots of high tech workers from all over, both domestically and internationally. ---
**Author:** ![Living\_Well\_Is\_Best\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/6bbea6/32.png) [@Living\_Well\_Is\_Best\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Living_Well_Is_Best_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2013, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-right-wing-conservativism-is-so-great-why-do-their-states-suck/670301/62 "2013-10-04T19:02:54Z")
I live in Tennessee, and it’s pretty much red-state hell. Luckily I live in a blue oasis that is somewhat separate. Our state reps are scary radicals. ---
**Author:** ![njtt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ecd19e/32.png) [@njtt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/njtt)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2013, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-right-wing-conservativism-is-so-great-why-do-their-states-suck/670301/63 "2013-10-04T19:57:41Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > But yet the state and munincipal governments have managed to take all those advantages and make California a place where millions of people have left and is only **maintaining its population through immigration**. Er, I do not think these facts (if they really are facts) actually support your contention that California sucks. Anyway, the main reason the state’s governance is fucked up is because, thanks to Prop. 13’s requirement for a supermajority to raise any state taxes, the intransigent Republican minority has prevented any sort of sensible budget (even one with reasonable levels of cuts) from being passed for many, many years. Republicans in California have long been doing what are now trying to do to the country as a whole. ---
**Author:** ![pullin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c57346/32.png) [@pullin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pullin)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2013, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-right-wing-conservativism-is-so-great-why-do-their-states-suck/670301/64 "2013-10-05T00:04:06Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > Although it sounds like you have a professional job. How would you describe the standard of living or advancement opportunities for people who don’t have similar types of jobs? To be honest, I think that anyone can have a good standard of living here, with a fair amount of effort. Unfortunately the keyword is anyone. I can probably coach an individual youngster in a path to success (and have), but it doesn’t scale up to millions. Examples: My son started at a local warehouse at 19 and made supervisor by 21 (salary \> US median income). My cousin bought a truck (with oilfield earnings) and started a small roadway contracting business. Now at 26 he has several trucks and income well above the century mark. Nephew started cleaning chicken houses, now has several trucks/employees and sells the “result” to fertilizer companies (makes money on both ends). Another nephew started on the line at a Pilgrim’s chicken processor, is now plant manager. And another cousin started out repairing railroad cars and is now a UP train engineer. None of these people have a 4 year degree, and all but one are earning above 6 figures. I guess the short answer to your question is “Yes the opportunities are there, but for a limited number”. There aren’t enough opportunities for millions of people to take those paths. > [@Bridget\_Burke](#): > > Texas Democrats certainly have our work cut out for us. We’ll gladly support [Wendy Davis for Governor](http://www.texasobserver.org/three-reasons-wendy-davis-can-win-three-reasons-cant/), even though it’s been a long time since… It may not be as much work as you think. Many of my conservative friends are so fed up with Perry et al., that we’re starting to take a long look at her. The woman is no fool, but the same can’t be said for the current occupant. And this from a lifelong conservative.:rolleyes: My prediction is that she will be Texas’ next governor. You heard it here first. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2013, 6:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-right-wing-conservativism-is-so-great-why-do-their-states-suck/670301/65 "2013-10-05T06:43:47Z")
It should be noted much of the internal migration out of states such as California, New York, and Massachusetts is pure and simple white flight which is both blatantly illogical in motive and becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy as poor, minority populations move in without the leavening element of the Anglo middle class (of course in some places such as California there are happily plenty of Asian immigrants who despite being often far more openly racist then whites, nonetheless take on this role) and this has affected mostly suburbs rather than core cities (places such as Manhattan and San Francisco gained white population in 2000-2010). ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2013, 6:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-right-wing-conservativism-is-so-great-why-do-their-states-suck/670301/66 "2013-10-05T06:45:03Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > The ironic thing is that liberals continue to love Canada even though it saw liberalism not working and abandoned it. They had a large deficit and a huge amount of debt just like the US does, but instead of trying to spend their way out of debt they cut government programs. They cut government spending on programs 14% less in only three years. This allowed them to have a surplus, pay down the debt and cut taxes. Now Canada has lower federal taxes on high incomes, lower capital gains taxes, lower corporate taxes, and lower payroll taxes. That is why when the liberals take over the red states we will have to move to Canada to find sane governance. > The bad thing will be having to shiver in line at Tim Horton’s with some hoser in a Nordiques jersey trying to talk to you aboot the forechecking in the game last night. They also have single-payer UHC. Would you be willing to support a compromise where we have single-payer UHC in exchange for certain cuts in taxation and spending? ---
**Author:** ![usedtobe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ec9cab/32.png) [@usedtobe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/usedtobe)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2013, 7:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-right-wing-conservativism-is-so-great-why-do-their-states-suck/670301/67 "2013-10-05T07:00:45Z")
Actually, the Clinton administration ran a surplus and paid DOWN the debt. Uncle Ronnie (cut taxes, increase spending (We have BATTLESHIPS!), AND balance the budget) came into office with a 1 Trillion deficit. He left with a 4 trillion deficit. And the battleships were put back in the closet. No wonder the pubbies worship him! ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2013, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-right-wing-conservativism-is-so-great-why-do-their-states-suck/670301/68 "2013-10-05T19:57:38Z")
> [@Labrador\_Deceiver](#): > > Cite? > > Hint: It’s not that simple. If it were, you wouldn’t be seeing a massive job shift to the South by younger, working people. It’s not younger, working people who are shifting jobs, it’s their employers. Just because market conditions force you to move to Sprawlton, IE\* doesn’t mean you necessarily want to do it. \*“Inland Empire” ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2013, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-right-wing-conservativism-is-so-great-why-do-their-states-suck/670301/69 "2013-10-05T20:17:45Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > We all know retirees that have gone to Florida. Many younger workers are being siphoned off to work in the energy industry as witnessed by the boom in ND caused by spikes in oil prices . Just as Moses led the Jews to the one place in the Middle East without oil, progressives have found that they live in states with little in the way of oil reserves. Also, the economic slump has forced many to find work where they can, and go to states with weak unions and take whatever the companies feel like giving them. Perhaps it’s just as well ND and TX have a lot of oil. You need a lot more of it, on a per capita basis, to fuel the lifestyle there, than you would in a large city with even a mediocre transit system. ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2013, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-right-wing-conservativism-is-so-great-why-do-their-states-suck/670301/70 "2013-10-05T20:35:34Z")
> [@Bridget\_Burke](#): > > Well, your profile says you live in Washington DC. Lots of Our Tax Dollars have gone to build nice buildings in that fair city. Wasn’t your Metro mostly subsidized by the rest of the country, too? Just like all the Interstates, including the one that runs through your town? Anyway it’s not a fair question. Until fairly recently, DC had no home rule, and, strictly speaking, they still don’t. The federal government can still override or veto anything the municipal authority does. Compared to county or metro area that can decide to tax only itself for transit funding, I don’t think Washington ever had the same option available. ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2013, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-right-wing-conservativism-is-so-great-why-do-their-states-suck/670301/71 "2013-10-07T15:52:21Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > It should be noted much of the internal migration out of states such as California, New York, and Massachusetts is pure and simple white flight which is both blatantly illogical in motive and becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy as poor, minority populations move in without the leavening element of the Anglo middle class (of course in some places such as California there are happily plenty of Asian immigrants who despite being often far more openly racist then whites, nonetheless take on this role) and this has affected mostly suburbs rather than core cities (places such as Manhattan and San Francisco gained white population in 2000-2010). This is not true at all. Black people are moving to the South in huge [numbers](http://www.brookings.edu/~/media/research/files/papers/2011/8/31%20census%20race%20frey/0831_census_race_frey). pdf While at the same time black people are leaving liberal havens like San Fransisco which has lost 36% of its black residents in the past 20 [years](http://www.sfexaminer.com/sanfrancisco/breed-decries-shrinking-sf-black-population/Content?oid=2445469). What is happening is that liberal policies drive out the middle class who have to go elsewhere for jobs and leave only the rich who can afford high taxes and private schools and the poor who dont have the resources to leave. The end result is California where you have Silicon Valley and Hollywood which are filled with rich white people. Then you have the inland which is poor and minority filled. Of the 20 cities with the highest unemployment rates in the country [12](http://www.businessinsider.com/tough-times-meet-americas-cities-with-the-highest-unemployment-rate-2010-5?op=1)are in California. Yet the rich liberals keep voting for job killing taxes and regulations. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2013, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-right-wing-conservativism-is-so-great-why-do-their-states-suck/670301/72 "2013-10-07T16:09:40Z")
> [@usedtobe](#): > > Actually, the Clinton administration ran a surplus and paid DOWN the debt. You misspelled “the Republican-controlled Congress”. The Clinton administration fought tooth and nail against balancing the budget, and their plan was to have $200 billion deficits as far as the eye could see. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Yllaria](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yllaria/32/3452_2.png) [@Yllaria](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yllaria)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2013, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-right-wing-conservativism-is-so-great-why-do-their-states-suck/670301/73 "2013-10-07T17:12:43Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > It should be noted much of the internal migration out of states such as California, New York, and Massachusetts is pure and simple white flight . . . I haven’t looked into the numbers, but I’m curious whether the numbers take leaving retirees into account. My parents were part of a small stream of California retirees who sold their paid off house at California prices and moved out of state to buy a much larger place for a lot less. ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2013, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-right-wing-conservativism-is-so-great-why-do-their-states-suck/670301/74 "2013-10-07T17:36:59Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > What social policies? Is it important to you that not everyone gets to marry the person he/she loves? Or do you hate the idea of people having sex and “getting away with it”? Or do you hate that whole freedom of religion thing? Are you looking for the North vs. South decision to be overturned? None of the above. All states have freedom of religion in major issues, though attacks against freedom of religion generally come from Democrats, so the red states would be preferable from that perspective. As for having sex, it’s legal in all fifty states as well. I think you’re just ranting and being silly, but if you’d like to explain what you’re talking bout I’ll be happy to listen. ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2013, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-right-wing-conservativism-is-so-great-why-do-their-states-suck/670301/75 "2013-10-07T17:47:41Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > When looking at objective measurements like per capita income, education levels, job prospects, and other metrics usually used to indicate “a nice place to live in”, there seems to be a general correlation where Red states fall below Blue states. > > So I suppose my question is what goes though right-wing Tea Party types mind? > > Do they see the world in some fundamentally different way where a more rural, less developed style of living is considered far superior to the more urban, educated, cultural centers on the coasts? > > Do they think their lower standard of living is due to the “Liberals” destroying the larger economy or something? > > Or do they think about it at all? Like most others in this thread, I question the validity of your hypothesis. Red states fall below blue states in job prospects? [Here’s a list of states ranked by unemployment](http://www.bls.gov/web/laus/laumstrk.htm). It does not appear to back up your claim. Three red states have the lowest unemployment rates; five blue states have the highest unemployment rates. I’d also advise you to remember that the political divide is not by state. Rather, it is urban vs. suburban and rural. The great majority of urban areas are heavily Democratic, while suburbs tend Republican and rural areas are very heavily Republican. In my experience, suburbs are a much nicer place to live than the urban cores: lower taxes, less crime, lower housing prices, less regulation on land use, better schools, better roads, better parks, … What’s not to love? ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2013, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-right-wing-conservativism-is-so-great-why-do-their-states-suck/670301/76 "2013-10-07T18:23:33Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > None of the above. All states have freedom of religion in major issues, though attacks against freedom of religion generally come from Democrats, so the red states would be preferable from that perspective. As for having sex, it’s legal in all fifty states as well. I think you’re just ranting and being silly, but if you’d like to explain what you’re talking bout I’ll be happy to listen. The Muslims of Murfreesboro TN would beg to differ on how the red staters stand on freedom of religion. The anti-abortionists and the anti-contraception people tend to think of sex without pregnancy as an abomination. Let’s face it, folks. Nobody moves because of taxes. If my property taxes go up, I suck it up. I sure as hell am not going to move to some shithole like Mississippi to escape taxes. > [@](#): > > In my experience, suburbs are a much nicer place to live than the urban cores: lower taxes, less crime, lower housing prices, less regulation on land use, better schools, better roads, better parks, … What’s not to love? Again, people don’t move because of taxes. Housing prices are a factor in the cities’ favor- you can buy a house in Detroit for under $50K easily. Regulation on land use? Some of the suburbs are pretty strictly zoned. If you want to run a massage parlor and live upstairs from it, better go to a city. Schools are often better, that is true. Roads are probably a wash- many cities have roads just as well maintained as the suburbs. I know in my winter commute I often notice that when I get to the city, the roads are better plowed. To the extent that people use parks, I’ll grant the suburbs that one. I’m not anti-suburb, I live in one myself, I just don’t see the cities as the cesspools of evil that Republicans seem to. ---
**Author:** ![Clothahump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@Clothahump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clothahump)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2013, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-right-wing-conservativism-is-so-great-why-do-their-states-suck/670301/77 "2013-10-07T18:29:18Z")
One of the best statements that I’ve heard lately is that Texas not only has to guard its southern border from the illegals, it now need to guard its western border from the liberals fleeing California. People are flocking to the southern states, which are predominantly conservative. They are moving in such numbers that (emphasis mine): > [@](#): > > Texas was the biggest winner, gaining four seats, while Ohio and New York were the biggest losers, dropping two each. Another major gainer was Florida, which added two seats. > Arizona, Georgia, Nevada, South Carolina, Utah and Washington will each add a seat, while Illinois, Iowa, Louisiana, Massachusetts, Michigan, Missouri, New Jersey and Pennsylvania will each lose one. > **The Census Bureau underlined the demographic change by declaring the nation’s population center will move from near Edgar Springs, Missouri, to perhaps as far south as northern Arkansas.** > The bureau describes the population center as a place from which all U.S. residents, in an imaginary, flat, equal landscape, would be perfectly balanced. In 1790, it was in Maryland, before moving across the Midwest in the decades that followed. [http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2010-12-22/u-s-population-shift-accelerates-to-south-west-states-2010-census-shows.html](http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2010-12-22/u-s-population-shift-accelerates-to-south-west-states-2010-census-shows.html) ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2013, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-right-wing-conservativism-is-so-great-why-do-their-states-suck/670301/78 "2013-10-07T18:36:10Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > You misspelled “the Republican-controlled Congress”. The Clinton administration fought tooth and nail against balancing the budget, and their plan was to have $200 billion deficits as far as the eye could see. > > Regards, > Shodan Since the government shutdown is in the news it is worth remembering that this is what the previous shut down was about. The Republicans in congress wanted to balance the budget by 2003. Clinton thought this would wreck our economy. In the end the Republicans got most of what they wanted and the budget was balanced years before either side forecast. ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2013, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-right-wing-conservativism-is-so-great-why-do-their-states-suck/670301/79 "2013-10-07T19:06:03Z")
> [@Clothahump](#): > > One of the best statements that I’ve heard lately is that Texas not only has to guard its southern border from the illegals, it now need to guard its western border from the liberals fleeing California. > > People are flocking to the southern states, which are predominantly conservative. They are moving in such numbers that (emphasis mine): > [http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2010-12-22/u-s-population-shift-accelerates-to-south-west-states-2010-census-shows.html](http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2010-12-22/u-s-population-shift-accelerates-to-south-west-states-2010-census-shows.html) Nah, we don’t keep the Californians out. (We’re not even as stringent at keeping the Mexicans out as, say, Arizona.) The Californians usually move to cities–not just Austin–which tend to vote Democratic. So, the more the merrier. The cities are where you find most of the job growth. Don’t let Governor Rick take the credit for that; he never ran a business in his life. Or even had a job outside government (aside from a few years in the USAF–his ROTC obligation.) We’ve got some serious Republican problems here but time is on our side. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2013, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-right-wing-conservativism-is-so-great-why-do-their-states-suck/670301/80 "2013-10-07T20:52:38Z")
> [@MostlyUseless](#): > > Has the OP ever actually been to those RED states? It seems silly to make such wide ranging claims against a way of life that they might know nothing about. Off the top of my head I’ve been to Georgia, Indiana, Kentucky, Louisiana, Tennessee, and Texas. A lot of Blue states and swing states as well. In other words, just assume I know everything about everything.😉 > [@ITR champion](#): > > …though attacks against freedom of religion generally come from Democrats, so the red states would be preferable from that perspective. Republicans say this because they equate “attack against freedom of religion” as “they won’t let us teach creationism as science in public schools”. > [@ITR champion](#): > > I’d also advise you to remember that the political divide is not by state. Rather, it is urban vs. suburban and rural. The great majority of urban areas are heavily Democratic, while suburbs tend Republican and rural areas are very heavily Republican. In my experience, suburbs are a much nicer place to live than the urban cores: lower taxes, less crime, lower housing prices, less regulation on land use, better schools, better roads, better parks, … What’s not to love? That’s true enough. Although interestingly New York has had a Republican mayor for the past 20 years. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-right-wing-conservativism-is-so-great-why-do-their-states-suck/670301.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-right-wing-conservativism-is-so-great-why-do-their-states-suck/670301.md?page=5)