# If right-wing conservativism is so great, why do their states suck? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 3, 2013, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-right-wing-conservativism-is-so-great-why-do-their-states-suck/670301 "2013-10-03T22:04:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2013, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-right-wing-conservativism-is-so-great-why-do-their-states-suck/670301/81 "2013-10-07T21:28:18Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > The Muslims of Murfreesboro TN would beg to differ on how the red staters stand on freedom of religion. The anti-abortionists and the anti-contraception people tend to think of sex without pregnancy as an abomination. I have met many people who are anti-abortion and a smaller number who are anti-contraception; I’ve never heard any of them say that they think of sex without pregnancy as an abomination. Hence I judge that statement of yours to be false, and don’t classify it as a reason to from conservative areas. As for the Muslims of Murfreesboro TN begging to differ on how red staters stand on freedom of religion, that’s too vague to constitute a meaningful argument. If you honestly believe that freedom of religion is not allowed in the red states, you’re welcome to present evidence backing up that claim. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2013, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-right-wing-conservativism-is-so-great-why-do-their-states-suck/670301/82 "2013-10-07T21:28:55Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > Overall the trend is for red states to take more. This is because red states are mostly states that used to be poor and are getting richer, while blue states are states that used to be rich and are getting poorer. Tune in to WDUH (“Well, DUH”) for an in-depth analysis on this phenomenon: Parasites Get Fatter; Hosts Get Thinner. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2013, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-right-wing-conservativism-is-so-great-why-do-their-states-suck/670301/83 "2013-10-07T21:36:11Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > As for the Muslims of Murfreesboro TN begging to differ on how red staters stand on freedom of religion, that’s too vague to constitute a meaningful argument. This is the most pathetic attempt to evade argument-defeating counter-evidence that I have ever seen on these boards, and that’s saying something. ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2013, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-right-wing-conservativism-is-so-great-why-do-their-states-suck/670301/84 "2013-10-07T21:39:11Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > City life or country, more education is generally better than less education, for instance, but red states tend to be less educated. Do they? According to [this map](http://www.americashealthrankings.org/all/graduation), the data seem mixed. Both red states and blue states are represented among those with the highest and lowest graduation rates. Once again, it’s worth remembering that politics isn’t divided by state, but rather by urban vs. rural and suburban. And where do you think graduation rates are higher: in urban cores that lean heavily Democrat, or in rural and suburban districts that lean heavily Republican? ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2013, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-right-wing-conservativism-is-so-great-why-do-their-states-suck/670301/85 "2013-10-07T21:41:47Z")
> [@Steve\_MB](#): > > This is the most pathetic attempt to evade argument-defeating counter-evidence that I have ever seen on these boards, and that’s saying something. As I said, If you honestly believe that freedom of religion is not allowed in the red states, you’re welcome to present evidence backing up that claim. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2013, 10:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-right-wing-conservativism-is-so-great-why-do-their-states-suck/670301/86 "2013-10-08T10:48:06Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > The root of the Tea Party rage is the same as the anger expressed here toward red staters sucking off the government teat. We work hard to make money and one third to one half of it goes to the government to buy votes for politicians and support people who don’t work. > It is great that the economic refugees from liberalism can move to red states, but Washington is trying to turn the whole country into a blue state. Higher taxes, higher spending, higher regulations, until the whole country is California. Where are we going to move then? Up into Canada with those poutine eating hockey lovers? shouldn’t that enrage people? I understand now. It’s that they are insane. > [@ITR\_champion](#): > > Once again, it’s worth remembering that politics isn’t divided by state, but rather by urban vs. rural and suburban. And where do you think graduation rates are higher: in urban cores that lean heavily Democrat, or in rural and suburban districts that lean heavily Republican? That’s not entirely true either. If you look at a [map by county](http://blogs.dickinson.edu/gis/files/2012/12/image5.jpg), counties tend to vote Democrat as they get closer to urban areas. Not just the urban centers but the entire suburban metropolitan region surrounding places like New York, Boston, La, San Fran, Seattle and Chicago. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2013, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-right-wing-conservativism-is-so-great-why-do-their-states-suck/670301/87 "2013-10-08T13:36:37Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > That’s not entirely true either. If you look at a [map by county](http://blogs.dickinson.edu/gis/files/2012/12/image5.jpg), counties tend to vote Democrat as they get closer to urban areas. Not just the urban centers but the entire suburban metropolitan region surrounding places like New York, Boston, La, San Fran, Seattle and Chicago. That’s because county boundaries only somewhat approximate the boundaries of the urban and rural areas. For example, in Texas, Harris County is fully blue. This makes sense- Houston is primarily in Harris County. Ft. Bend and Waller counties are a darker purple. This is not because the people are homogeneously voting democrat/republican like that, it’s because the Houston urban area spills over into those counties. Ft. Bend in particular has its eastern 1/4 covered by Houston suburbs, and the western 3/4 are pretty much rural. In addition, the first mile or two of the suburbs within the county are places like Missouri City, Mission Bend, Stafford and southern parts of Alief, which tend to be minority and poor. Outside of that comes places like Greatwood, Quail Valley, New Territory, Pecan Grove and Sweetwater, which are as affluent, white and firmly red as anywhere in the country. But… when you do it by county, the entire shooting match comes out in a purple shade, which is misleading at best. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2013, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-right-wing-conservativism-is-so-great-why-do-their-states-suck/670301/88 "2013-10-08T14:43:21Z")
> [@Steve\_MB](#): > > This is the most pathetic attempt to evade argument-defeating counter-evidence that I have ever seen on these boards, and that’s saying something. You don’t recall [this thread?](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=439071) Now we’re at the seven year-mark. Can you point to a single case of a victim of domestic violence finding it necessary to go through an extra wringer to obtain those protections because Virginia amended their definition of marriage? ---
**Author:** ![Karrius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/71c47a/32.png) [@Karrius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Karrius)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2013, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-right-wing-conservativism-is-so-great-why-do-their-states-suck/670301/89 "2013-10-08T14:56:33Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > As I said, If you honestly believe that freedom of religion is not allowed in the red states, you’re welcome to present evidence backing up that claim. Red states are anti gay marriage. I don’t think this needs to be cited, does it? You can try to make excuses how “this isn’t religious”, but you’d just be making excuses for sheer bigotry. And then there’s trying to force no contraception and totally baseless, stupid things like that on non-believers. And yes, you have stuff like this: [http://www.tennessean.com/comments/article/20130605/NEWS21/306050155/Muslim-group-s-TN-forum-feds-disrupted-by-heckling](http://www.tennessean.com/comments/article/20130605/NEWS21/306050155/Muslim-group-s-TN-forum-feds-disrupted-by-heckling) > **[Outreach Meeting In Tenn. Clouded By Anti-Muslim Uproar](https://www.npr.org/2013/06/10/190453539/outreach-meeting-in-tenn-clouded-by-anti-muslim-uproar)** > > The small town of Manchester, Tenn., is trying to figure out what happened this past week. Hundreds of activists heckled a U.S. Attorney who was making a speech on hate crimes and cheered as Muslims described the firebombing of a nearby mosque. The... Is this “freedom of religion” to you? The fact that you think “attacks against freedom of religion come from democrats” show just how out of touch you are. I’m sorry you don’t get to beat gay people to death and shoot muslims. It must be so hard on you and your fellow conservatives. ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2013, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-right-wing-conservativism-is-so-great-why-do-their-states-suck/670301/90 "2013-10-08T16:21:29Z")
> [@Karrius](#): > > Red states are anti gay marriage. I don’t think this needs to be cited, does it? You can try to make excuses how “this isn’t religious”, but you’d just be making excuses for sheer bigotry. Huh? About half the blue states don’t give marriage licenses to same-sex couples. Until very recently, no state gave marriage licenses to same-sex couples. In 2008, the Dems elected a presidential who was anti-same-sex-marriage. If not giving marriage licenses to same-sex couples is opposition to religious freedom, then apparently many Dems are opposed to religious freedom, and they were almost unanimously opposed to religious freedom until very recently. > [@](#): > > And then there’s trying to force no contraception and totally baseless, stupid things like that on non-believers. Who exactly is “trying to force no contraception on non-believers”? Could we have a citation for that? The only attempt I know of to take away our freedom regarding contraception came from Pres. Obama, who wants to force everyone in the country to buy a health insurance plan that covers contraception, or else be fined. The Republicans responded to this by supporting the freedom for everyone to make their own decision regarding contraception. > [@](#): > > And yes, you have stuff like this: > > [http://www.tennessean.com/comments/article/20130605/NEWS21/306050155/Muslim-group-s-TN-forum-feds-disrupted-by-heckling](http://www.tennessean.com/comments/article/20130605/NEWS21/306050155/Muslim-group-s-TN-forum-feds-disrupted-by-heckling) > > [Outreach Meeting In Tenn. Clouded By Anti-Muslim Uproar : NPR](http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=190453539) > Is this “freedom of religion” to you? I certainly don’t see anything in either link that would constitute a lack of freedom of religion. > [@](#): > > I’m sorry you don’t get to beat gay people to death and shoot muslims. It must be so hard on you and your fellow conservatives. I have no desire to beat gay people to death or shoot Muslims. Good day. ---
**Author:** ![Karrius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/71c47a/32.png) [@Karrius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Karrius)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2013, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-right-wing-conservativism-is-so-great-why-do-their-states-suck/670301/91 "2013-10-08T16:25:29Z")
> [@](#): > > Who exactly is “trying to force no contraception on non-believers”? Could we have a citation for that? [http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2011/06/03/235552/personhood-bills-attack-contraception/](http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2011/06/03/235552/personhood-bills-attack-contraception/) More “freedom of religion” from red states: [Judge to Sikh Man: Remove "That Rag" | ACLU](https://www.aclu.org/blog/religion-belief-racial-justice/judge-sikh-man-remove-rag-or-go-jail) Are you OK with this too? ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2013, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-right-wing-conservativism-is-so-great-why-do-their-states-suck/670301/92 "2013-10-08T16:27:40Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > That’s not entirely true either. If you look at a [map by county](http://blogs.dickinson.edu/gis/files/2012/12/image5.jpg), counties tend to vote Democrat as they get closer to urban areas. Not just the urban centers but the entire suburban metropolitan region surrounding places like New York, Boston, La, San Fran, Seattle and Chicago. Broadly speaking, urban areas are the most Democratic, suburban lean slightly Republican, and rural are very Republican. Even in New York or Chicago, the urban cores are more heavily Democratic than the suburbs, even if the suburbs are majority Democratic. All of which is beside the point. You start the thread with the claim that Democratic states are objectively better off than Republican states. We’ve seen that this is not true. On specific measures such as unemployment or high school graduation rates, the data don’t justify your claim. When we move from state-level to more local comparisons, the data turn even more against your claim. ---
**Author:** ![Karrius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/71c47a/32.png) [@Karrius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Karrius)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2013, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-right-wing-conservativism-is-so-great-why-do-their-states-suck/670301/93 "2013-10-08T16:29:29Z")
> [@](#): > > I certainly don’t see anything in either link that would constitute a lack of freedom of religion. You don’t think that people who literally cheer at the mention of burning down mosques are against “freedom of religion” ? ---
**Author:** ![Sahirrnee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sahirrnee/32/13937_2.png) [@Sahirrnee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sahirrnee)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2013, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-right-wing-conservativism-is-so-great-why-do-their-states-suck/670301/94 "2013-10-08T17:46:19Z")
> [@Karrius](#): > > You don’t think that people who literally cheer at the mention of burning down mosques are against “freedom of religion” ? Because only people in red states do that, and all people in red states do that. :rolleyes: It’s a good thing all people in red states walk in lockstep and agree on everything and every issue, it makes life so much easier when everybody looks, thinks and feels the same way. Makes it easier for people to feel superior and justify the hate when you judge a whole group on the actions of a few. I think that’s how it’s supposed to work. ---
**Author:** ![Idle\_Thoughts](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/838e76/32.png) [@Idle\_Thoughts](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Idle_Thoughts)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2013, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-right-wing-conservativism-is-so-great-why-do-their-states-suck/670301/95 "2013-10-08T18:01:29Z")
This topic is getting pretty heated (even for GD) so I’m going to move it over to the Pit. ---
**Author:** ![Karrius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/71c47a/32.png) [@Karrius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Karrius)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2013, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-right-wing-conservativism-is-so-great-why-do-their-states-suck/670301/96 "2013-10-08T18:02:49Z")
> [@](#): > > Because only people in red states do that, and all people in red states do that. Pretty sure I didn’t say that, but it 's cool. I don’t expect conservatives to be honest. ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2013, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-right-wing-conservativism-is-so-great-why-do-their-states-suck/670301/97 "2013-10-08T18:36:54Z")
> [@MostlyUseless](#): > > Those of us here in the south and love it too. We would prefer yall just stay where you are. …but keep sending the checks. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tooth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c67d28/32.png) [@The\_Tooth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tooth)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2013, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-right-wing-conservativism-is-so-great-why-do-their-states-suck/670301/98 "2013-10-08T18:57:43Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > The ironic thing is that liberals continue to love Canada even though it saw liberalism not working and abandoned it. They had a large deficit and a huge amount of debt just like the US does, but instead of trying to spend their way out of debt they cut government programs. They cut government spending on programs 14% less in only three years. This allowed them to have a surplus, pay down the debt and cut taxes. Now Canada has lower federal taxes on high incomes, lower capital gains taxes, lower corporate taxes, and lower payroll taxes. That is why when the liberals take over the red states we will have to move to Canada to find sane governance. How about instead of you coming here, we send Harper there? I’m sure you guys won’t mind, or even notice, when he starts muzzling your scientist(s?). I think we’ll struggle along, even if taxes on the wealthy and on corporations happen to go up. ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2013, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-right-wing-conservativism-is-so-great-why-do-their-states-suck/670301/99 "2013-10-08T19:34:51Z")
> [@sahirrnee](#): > > Because only people in red states do that, and all people in red states do that. :rolleyes: > > It’s a good thing all people in red states walk in lockstep and agree on everything and every issue, it makes life so much easier when everybody looks, thinks and feels the same way. > Makes it easier for people to feel superior and justify the hate when you judge a whole group on the actions of a few. > I think that’s how it’s supposed to work. Yeah, the thread started with claims of objective proof that life is better in blue states than red states. Once we started looking at actual evidence, it quickly switched to ‘I have an anecdote about something bad that happened in a red state’. Yawn. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2013, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-right-wing-conservativism-is-so-great-why-do-their-states-suck/670301/100 "2013-10-08T19:58:53Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > Yeah, the thread started with claims of objective proof that life is better in blue states than red states. Once we started looking at actual evidence, it quickly switched to ‘I have an anecdote about something bad that happened in a red state’. > > Yawn. This is bullshit. Are you ever fucking right about anything? I mean seriously, every thread you start, your premise is picked apart nearly instantly. Here, you’re full of shit as well. Pick a metric, and show me anywhere that red states outperform blue states. Here’s a discussion we just had about state rankings on standardized testing: [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=16614390&postcount=21](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=16614390&postcount=21) Here’s overall health, with links to a large number of health and functional indicators, including graduation rates: [http://www.americashealthrankings.org/rankings](http://www.americashealthrankings.org/rankings) **Worst 10 states: MS, LA, AR, WV, SC, AL, KY, OK, MO, IN** Here’s dental care: [www.richmondinstitute.com/ranking-u-s-states-by-trends-in-oral-health](http://www.richmondinstitute.com/ranking-u-s-states-by-trends-in-oral-health) **worst five for dental visits: OK, MS, WV, MT, AR top five for seniors with all teeth removed: WV, TN, KY, MS, LA top five for shortage of dentists: MS, LA, NM, SC, AL** Here’s ratings of happiness: [Happiest States of 2012: The List | Gallup Well-Being Poll | Live Science](http://www.livescience.com/27537-list-happiest-states-2012.html) **Lowest 10: WV, KY, MS, TN, AR, AL, OH, LA, IN, NV, OK** Hot off the presses: the 10 most dangerous states in the US: [USA TODAY](http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/business/2013/10/05/most-dangerous-states/2925679/) **Ten Most Dangerous states: TN, NV, AK, NM, SC, DE, LA, FL, MD, OK** Worst drivers (most fatal crashes, driving under the influence, careless or inattentive driving, failure to obey traffic signs): [http://www.thedailybeast.com/galleries/2010/09/22/the-worst-drivers-in-america.html#slide21](http://www.thedailybeast.com/galleries/2010/09/22/the-worst-drivers-in-america.html#slide21) **Worst 10: ND, MT, KY, LA, OK, AK, MO, DE, ID, TX** state rankings of firearms deaths: [http://www.statemaster.com/graph/cri\_mur\_wit\_fir-death-rate-per-100-000](http://www.statemaster.com/graph/cri_mur_wit_fir-death-rate-per-100-000) **Bottom 10: AK, LA, WY, AZ, NV, MS, NM, AR, AL** (excluding DC) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-right-wing-conservativism-is-so-great-why-do-their-states-suck/670301.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-right-wing-conservativism-is-so-great-why-do-their-states-suck/670301.md?page=6)