# If right-wing conservativism is so great, why do their states suck? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 3, 2013, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-right-wing-conservativism-is-so-great-why-do-their-states-suck/670301 "2013-10-03T22:04:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2013, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-right-wing-conservativism-is-so-great-why-do-their-states-suck/670301/161 "2013-10-10T17:36:57Z")
> [@armedmonkey](#): > > I’m not ignoring you. I’m just not going to go through every goddamn point re: red states and blue states. You now what you missed? Education. The red states _suck_ on that. That’s irrelevant, though. > > Red state / blue state was never my point. **Msmith537** just annoys the fuck out of me because he makes sweeping claims and never backs anything up. I don’t really give a shit about a contest between red states and blue states measured by whose dicks are bigger, because that’s all it is to the guy. It’s ironic that you want to characterize this as an insubstantial matter (a “dick measuring contest”) while at the same time pointedly ignoring the substance (overall health, dental care, happiness, violent crime and dangerousness, poor driving, education) in preference to your personal issues with one other poster. It’s easy to say that there are no real substantial issues if you ignore the substantial issues. ---
**Author:** ![armedmonkey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@armedmonkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/armedmonkey)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2013, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-right-wing-conservativism-is-so-great-why-do-their-states-suck/670301/162 "2013-10-10T17:43:34Z")
I’m talking about the OP, not the issues. There’s a difference. I care about the issues, but I think **msmith547** is an idiot. I don’t think you’re an idiot, but I wonder why you’re having a hard time getting that the reason I am posting is I that I think he is one. If you let him do his own arguing, you will come to the same conclusion. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2013, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-right-wing-conservativism-is-so-great-why-do-their-states-suck/670301/163 "2013-10-10T17:52:52Z")
> [@armedmonkey](#): > > I’m talking about the OP, not the issues. There’s a difference. > > I care about the issues, but I think **msmith547** is an idiot. I don’t think you’re an idiot, but I wonder why you’re having a hard time getting that the reason I am posting is I that I think he is one. If you let him do his own arguing, you will come to the same conclusion. Perhaps it is because I don’t give a shit about your regard for msmith547, but I do care whether there are substantial state-based differences across broad indicators of wellness, and whether these systematically vary by categories of governance. ---
**Author:** ![armedmonkey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@armedmonkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/armedmonkey)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2013, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-right-wing-conservativism-is-so-great-why-do-their-states-suck/670301/164 "2013-10-10T17:56:36Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > Perhaps it is because I don’t give a shit about your regard for msmith547, but I do care whether there are substantial state-based differences across broad indicators of wellness, and whether these systematically vary by categories of governance. I will give you one thing, you have done a _hell_ of a lot better than he could. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2013, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-right-wing-conservativism-is-so-great-why-do-their-states-suck/670301/165 "2013-10-10T18:16:33Z")
[QUOTE=Hentor the Barbarian] Perhaps it is because I don’t give a shit about your regard for msmith547, [/QUOTE] **msmith537** also doesn’t give a shit about **armedmonkey** ’s regard for **msmith537**. (Why would I? Notice how I can’t even be bothered to respond to him directly. ) Although I do hear the children of unwed teenage mothers grow with all sorts of emotional problems. Maybe **armedmonkey** was raised in one of these states? [Teen Pregnancy Rates by State](http://www.livescience.com/27417-teen-pregnancy-rates-by-state.html) 1. New Mexico - 93/1,000\* 2. Mississippi - 90/1,000 3. Texas - 85/1,000 4. Nevada - 84/1,000\* 5. Arkansas - 82/1,000\*\* 6. Arizona - 82/1,000 7. Delaware - 81/1,000 8. Louisiana - 80/1,000 9. Oklahoma - 80/1,000 10. Georgia - 78/1,000 11. South Carolina - 76/1,000 12. Hawaii - 76/1,000 13. Tennessee - 76/1,000 14. Alabama - 73/1,000 15. Florida - 73/1,000\* \*Voted Democrat in 2012 \*\*Voted Republican in 2012 Also I went with [Red/Blue map by current governor,](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:United_States_Governors_map.svg)not by how they voted in the 2012 election. I feel it better reflects actual state policies. I feel this data is a bit more revealing than the dumb Forbes “List of Best Places to Live” list based on some unknown scoring algorithm of some arbitrary data metrics mishmashed together. ---
**Author:** ![curlcoat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ea5d25/32.png) [@curlcoat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/curlcoat)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2013, 2:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-right-wing-conservativism-is-so-great-why-do-their-states-suck/670301/166 "2013-10-11T02:45:53Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > The fact that California real estate is expensive has little to do with government spending. No, I was just saying that I’ve only heard one other reason for a retiree leaving other than getting away from the taxes. > [@](#): > > Personal anecdotes generally make poor evidence. Statistics indicate OTOH, a significant fall in the poverty level since Great Society programs were enacted. Personal anecdotes make poor evidence, but there are many folks in here making statements about people being supported by the government who have never had the experience of living with them, so I fail to see why their opinions can possibly be valid. Re a significant fall in the poverty level since Great Society programs were enacted, you’ll need to be more specific since you are talking decades ago. Do you mean fewer people living in poverty? > [@](#): > > Which is just an argument to legalize illegals to ensure they pay taxes. Not at all, since doing so just means we end up with more illegals. > [@](#): > > And net contributor by definition indicates they contribute more than they take out: [http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/05/29/us-usa-immigration-health-idUSBRE94S1GB20130529](http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/05/29/us-usa-immigration-health-idUSBRE94S1GB20130529) That’s just Medicare. What about MediCal, DentiCal, food stamps, housing, etc? > [@](#): > > Welfare programs have been cut back since the 1990s under Clintonian welfare reform. State programs, here? > [@](#): > > I live in California and my family is not exactly wealthy. There is a _huge_ difference between “not exactly wealthy” (which is where we are now) and living below the poverty line. > [@](#): > > And if Red States are so good, then why do the ones that are not ethnically lily white (ie places like Utah or the Plains states) generally display show of the lowest level of educational attainment, health, and other metrics of quality of life in the United States? I am not one to make generalizations about other states, particularly not ones that I haven’t live in. Nor am I discussing education or anything else here other than what happens when the government keeps giving people things for free. There are all kinds of reasons why those things might be happening that have nothing to do with red or blue. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2013, 6:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-right-wing-conservativism-is-so-great-why-do-their-states-suck/670301/167 "2013-10-11T06:38:26Z")
[QUOTE=curlcoat;16746931 Personal anecdotes make poor evidence, but there are many folks in here making statements about people being supported by the government who have never had the experience of living with them, so I fail to see why their opinions can possibly be valid.[/QUOTE] What makes one so sure, that they were never poor or had contact with them? > [@](#): > > Re a significant fall in the poverty level since Great Society programs were enacted, you’ll need to be more specific since you are talking decades ago. Do you mean fewer people living in poverty? Yes, speaking percentage-wise. > [@](#): > > Not at all, since doing so just means we end up with more illegals. Not really. Illegal immigration rates are already dropping off and programs like EVerify can help contain the problem. > [@](#): > > That’s just Medicare. What about MediCal, DentiCal, food stamps, housing, etc? Illegal immigrants are not eligible for most of those programs. > [@](#): > > State programs, here? Considering California’s budget problems, they aren’t intact either. That said I’m > [@](#): > > There is a _huge_ difference between “not exactly wealthy” (which is where we are now) and living below the poverty line. Perhaps I should have clarified by saying at the borderline of poverty. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2013, 11:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-right-wing-conservativism-is-so-great-why-do-their-states-suck/670301/168 "2013-10-11T11:04:36Z")
[Quote=msmith537] I feel this data is a bit more revealing than the dumb Forbes “List of Best Places to Live” list based on some unknown scoring algorithm of some arbitrary data metrics mishmashed together. [/quote] Well, they’re not arbitrary metrics. Things like low taxes and business-favorable climates may be part of the reason that some states rank so poorly on other indicators of quality of life. It’s the real question when it comes to the red state/blue state thing for me. It isn’t just dick measuring. It isn’t partisanship. People are fucking stupid because they think comparisons like this are about my team versus your team. These are the kind of things that should help you decide what team to be on in the first place, or what kind of things your team should be doing. So yeah, seeing that a construct that includes lower taxes ends up not looking as bad for red states as all the other indicators shouldn’t be surprising. ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2013, 1:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-right-wing-conservativism-is-so-great-why-do-their-states-suck/670301/169 "2013-10-11T13:08:26Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > Let’s face it, folks. Nobody moves because of taxes. If my property taxes go up, I suck it up. I sure as hell am not going to move to some shithole like Mississippi to escape taxes. As others have already pointed out this is just completely wrong. Have you never shopped for a house? How much are the taxes? That’s the second or third question people ask when looking at a town. People are leaving CA in droves for AZ. People are leaving MA in droves for NC. Cary, a near Research Triangle Park is called the Containment Area for Relocated Yankees. I live in NH. You better believe that I’m not moving south of the MA border ever so I can give them 5%. It’s very telling that you actually think taxes don’t matter. It reads like a parody of liberal naivete. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2013, 1:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-right-wing-conservativism-is-so-great-why-do-their-states-suck/670301/170 "2013-10-11T13:19:53Z")
> [@Bridget\_Burke](#): > > No, our public schools do not teach Creationism–but the Perry-appointed fools keep trying… The worst part is that the State Board of Education (the group that makes textbook and other educational decisions) is publicly elected. In other words, those benighted knuckleheads agitating for creationism and intelligent design are people that the population voted into office. If anything would make me think that some sort of poll tax or limitation on voting rights was a good idea, it’s the very presence of these fools on the Board of Education. There’s no reasonable, non-ignorant way that these people should ever have been elected in the first place, much less mucking things up about the education of Texas students. ---
**Author:** ![curlcoat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ea5d25/32.png) [@curlcoat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/curlcoat)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2013, 4:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-right-wing-conservativism-is-so-great-why-do-their-states-suck/670301/171 "2013-10-12T04:28:15Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > What makes one so sure, that they were never poor or had contact with them? Mostly the things they say, as if poor people are saints and just need a little help to move up. Also when I said that those who had never lived below the poverty line should quit making statements, they all shut up. > [@](#): > > Yes, speaking percentage-wise. You have a cite for that? I’m not sure exactly what it is that you are saying here, or what it might be based on. > [@](#): > > Not really. Illegal immigration rates are already dropping off and programs like EVerify can help contain the problem. I’m not sure how anyone can know anything about the rate of illegal immigration, since there aren’t too many folks that are going to admit they are here illegally. EVerify could help, but it appears voluntary so I doubt the big employers of illegals are going to use it. And it won’t stop anchor babies. > [@](#): > > Illegal immigrants are not eligible for most of those programs. It doesn’t mean they aren’t getting them. The government is a big stupid machine, and it is quite easy to get things from it that you aren’t eligible for, if you are willing to risk being found out. If illegals are paying into Medicare, it shouldn’t be much of a jump for you to believe they are involved in other government programs. > [@](#): > > Considering California’s budget problems, they aren’t intact either. That said I’m You didn’t finish this. > [@](#): > > Perhaps I should have clarified by saying at the borderline of poverty. Um, OK. How do you define that? ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2013, 4:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-right-wing-conservativism-is-so-great-why-do-their-states-suck/670301/172 "2013-10-12T04:34:12Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > It’s very telling that you actually think taxes don’t matter. It reads like a parody of liberal naivete. What percentage of the total population of a state leaves for another state due to taxes? What is “droves” in terms of actual numbers? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2013, 4:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-right-wing-conservativism-is-so-great-why-do-their-states-suck/670301/173 "2013-10-12T04:40:36Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > I live in NH. You better believe that I’m not moving south of the MA border ever so I can give them 5%. For all of that, the Republic will endure. And NH will endure. And you will not. ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2013, 7:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-right-wing-conservativism-is-so-great-why-do-their-states-suck/670301/174 "2013-10-12T07:20:59Z")
> [@bump](#): > > The worst part is that the State Board of Education (the group that makes textbook and other educational decisions) is publicly elected. > > In other words, those benighted knuckleheads agitating for creationism and intelligent design are people that the population voted into office. > > If anything would make me think that some sort of poll tax or limitation on voting rights was a good idea, it’s the very presence of these fools on the Board of Education. There’s no reasonable, non-ignorant way that these people should ever have been elected in the first place, much less mucking things up about the education of Texas students. Yes, the SBOE is elected. The Governor nominates the Chair; one was so bad that [the Lege finally objected](http://www.tfn.org/site/PageServer?pagename=issues_public_schools_sboe_who): > [@](#): > > McLeroy chaired the board during the controversial revision of science curriculum standards. He joined other far-right board members in insisting that the new standards require students to learn so-called “weaknesses” of evolution that creationists have promoted (and scientists have debunked) for decades. The state Senate failed to confirm Gov. Rick Perry’s nomination of McLeroy for a second term as chair. McLeroy then lost his re-election bid for his board seat in the 2010 Republican primary. The Texas Freedom Network page includes sickening details about the more extremist SBOE members (past & present) and the well funded organizations (not all Texas-based) that have been using our schools to fight the Culture Wars. For years. The problem is that too many voters just don’t pay attention to those names at the end of the ballot. They may not have kids; I don’t, but am opposed to ignorance, in general. The nightly TV news rarely spends time on these elections; you have to seek out details on your own or pay attention to the fine folks at the TFN to know what’s at stake. The word _does_ get out to the Forces of Ignorance & they vote. Because of redistricting, all the SBOE was up for election last year. Results [here](http://www.tfn.org/site/PageServer?pagename=issues_sboe_2012_elections). The struggle is still on. Check out the TFN site for tons of information on How Texas Got That Way & What We Can Do About It… ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2013, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-right-wing-conservativism-is-so-great-why-do-their-states-suck/670301/175 "2013-10-12T18:23:18Z")
> [@curlcoat](#): > > Mostly the things they say, as if poor people are saints and just need a little help to move up. Very few people have said that. On the contrary, we’re saying that “cut everything except military spending!” simply increases poverty and inequality while those with far more robust welfare states than ours such as Germany have produced both very successful economic results along with far greater equality than the United States. > [@](#): > > Also when I said that those who had never lived below the poverty line should quit making statements, they all shut up. Or maybe this thread is just winding down. > [@](#): > > You have a cite for that? I’m not sure exactly what it is that you are saying here, or what it might be based on. Here for example: [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great\_Society#The\_Legacies\_of\_the\_Great\_Society](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Society#The_Legacies_of_the_Great_Society) > [@](#): > > One of Johnson’s aides, Joseph A. Califano, Jr., has countered that “from 1963 when Lyndon Johnson took office until 1970 as the impact of his Great Society programs were felt, the portion of Americans living below the poverty line dropped from 22.2 percent to 12.6 percent, the most dramatic decline over such a brief period in this century.”[26] The percentage of African Americans below the poverty line dropped from 55 percent in 1960 to 27 percent in 1968.[38] This is true especially among the elderly who were the beneficiaries of many of the strongest Great Society programs. > [@](#): > > I’m not sure how anyone can know anything about the rate of illegal immigration, since there aren’t too many folks that are going to admit they are here illegally. In other words you don’t trust the experts. Simple logic would indicate that illegal immigration would be less popular considering the Recession. > [@](#): > > EVerify could help, but it appears voluntary so I doubt the big employers of illegals are going to use it. And it won’t stop anchor babies. In that case, it ought to be made mandatory, with penalties for employers who don’t use the EVerify system. I believe the current immigration bill includes them. > [@](#): > > It doesn’t mean they aren’t getting them. The government is a big stupid machine, and it is quite easy to get things from it that you aren’t eligible for, if you are willing to risk being found out. If illegals are paying into Medicare, it shouldn’t be much of a jump for you to believe they are involved in other government programs. So what? There’s always some cheating in the entitlement and welfare programs (much as there is in corporate lobbying and subsidies except in the latter we’re cheated of far more money). And as I’ve said its outweighted by the fact that illegals pay taxes such as sales taxes. > [@](#): > > You didn’t finish this. I was going to say I’d prefer the federal government to totally federalize welfare payments and only adjust them for cost of living so that there are no wide inequalities in welfare coverage. > [@](#): > > Um, OK. How do you define that? If you must know, 21k for a family of three. ---
**Author:** ![curlcoat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ea5d25/32.png) [@curlcoat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/curlcoat)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2013, 3:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-right-wing-conservativism-is-so-great-why-do-their-states-suck/670301/176 "2013-10-13T03:14:39Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > Very few people have said that. On the contrary, we’re saying that “cut everything except military spending!” simply increases poverty and inequality while those with far more robust welfare states than ours such as Germany have produced both very successful economic results along with far greater equality than the United States. I haven’t talked to anyone that has said “cut everything except military spending!”, nor would I agree with that. And I doubt that Germany has such a high percentage of entitled irresponsible citizens as we do. Welfare only works if those getting it are working hard to get off of it. > [@](#): > > Or maybe this thread is just winding down. It wasn’t in this thread. (I think - hard to remember any more.) > [@](#): > > Here for example: [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great\_Society#The\_Legacies\_of\_the\_Great\_Society](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Society#The_Legacies_of_the_Great_Society) I imagine many things have changed since the 60’s. > [@](#): > > In other words you don’t trust the experts. What experts? Has someone come up with a way to count people who are doing their best to not be found? > [@](#): > > Simple logic would indicate that illegal immigration would be less popular considering the Recession. Perhaps. OTOH, things are still better here than down there, so maybe not. Like I said, I don’t know how anyone can know for sure since I don’t know how anyone can get anything close to an accurate count. > [@](#): > > In that case, it ought to be made mandatory, with penalties for employers who don’t use the EVerify system. I believe the current immigration bill includes them. OK. Apparently there are others who think that stopping the flow of bodies over the border is a good idea. > [@](#): > > So what? There’s always some cheating in the entitlement and welfare programs (much as there is in corporate lobbying and subsidies except in the latter we’re cheated of far more money). And as I’ve said its outweighted by the fact that illegals pay taxes such as sales taxes. I cannot imagine that poor illegals are buying enough of anything to pay enough sales taxes to cover what they take out of MediCal, DentiCal, WIC, etc. > [@](#): > > I was going to say I’d prefer the federal government to totally federalize welfare payments and only adjust them for cost of living so that there are no wide inequalities in welfare coverage. You want the Feds to pay out all of the welfare programs, not the states? > [@](#): > > If you must know, 21k for a family of three. What is the poverty level these days? ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2013, 3:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-right-wing-conservativism-is-so-great-why-do-their-states-suck/670301/177 "2013-10-13T03:30:22Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > What social policies? Is it important to you that not everyone gets to marry the person he/she loves? Or do you hate the idea of people having sex and “getting away with it”? Or do you hate that whole freedom of religion thing? Are you looking for the North vs. South decision to be overturned? "You do not understand Freedom. Number #1, #2 and #3 is Guns, guns, guns. If we don’t have the right to shoot to kill a suspected trespasser, we might as well be living in the Soviet Union. "And what about the Freedom to tell women what they may or may not do with their bodies? Hunh? “And shut your trap about Freedom of Religion! You can worship the Baby Jesus anyway you want in Dixie. We have _both_ kinds of religion here, Baptist _and_ Methodist. Heck, we even have some Presbyterian friends.” > [@sachertorte](#): > > Is that true? I’ve smugly believed that Massachusetts paid more in federal taxes than it spends for quite a while now… > Do you have a source for your assertion? A right-winger posted a fact with no cite and you Wikipedia’d it? :smack: Did you know there’s no “gullible” in Webster’s Dictionary? But thanks for this anyway: it was worth the price of admission to learn, after the rejoinder, that _the guy couldn’t even find Massachusetts on the map_! 😃 > [@puddleglum](#): > > The Republicans in congress wanted to balance the budget by 2003. Clinton thought this would wreck our economy. Oh my. I debunk this here every year or so, and the liars shut their traps for a few months. But here we go again. I give up. Amusing that he mentioned “2003.” I wonder if he even knows 2003 and 2004 set records for largest deficit in absolute terms? (The record is now held by 2009. Think he’s stupid enough to claim that one’s Obama’s fault?) > [@Idle\_Thoughts](#): > > This topic is getting pretty heated (even for GD) so I’m going to move it over to the Pit. Oh. I thought I clicked in BBQ Pit and wondered why the Idiots were getting such calm responses to their lunacies. 😉 > [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > You do realize California had a surplus budget this year under Governor Brown (who incidentally is a fiscally conservative Democrat despite some of his odd New Ager vibes) which it did not enjoy under the Governator? Forget it, Qin. These guys just see a “(D)” by the name. That’s the extent of their “thinking.” ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2013, 5:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-right-wing-conservativism-is-so-great-why-do-their-states-suck/670301/178 "2013-10-13T05:39:59Z")
> [@curlcoat](#): > > I haven’t talked to anyone that has said “cut everything except military spending!”, nor would I agree with that. And I doubt that Germany has such a high percentage of entitled irresponsible citizens as we do. You’re just engaging in America’s national pastime of self-reproach, which I believe comes down to us from the English Separatists who founded the first European settlements here. I doubt if your claim is true. In 2005 Germany did reduce the length of time one could take public assistance, and at the same time combined unemployment benefits with other kinds of cash assistance, suggesting that there was perceived to be some level of abuse of the system prior to that time. However, it’s pretty hard to compare the relative cost of such programs in the two countries. In many areas, such as healthcare, a higher level of support from the government is standard, and American conservatives might criticize this arrangement as welfare. By that metric, many more Germans must be taking “welfare”, as our conservatives might call it, but the percentage of people actually receiving cash assistance from the welfare authorities must be far less. One reason may be German employment law, which makes it much [harder to fire people.](http://www.economist.com/blogs/freeexchange/2011/08/fiscal-policy-0) By common wisdom, this makes employers much more reluctant to hire new people, yet currently the overall result is that the German unemployment rate is currently but a fraction of the American rate. And this pretty much flies in the face of conservative reasoning, by which greater regulation of the private sector is a job killer. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2013, 10:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-right-wing-conservativism-is-so-great-why-do-their-states-suck/670301/179 "2013-10-13T10:57:56Z")
> [@curlcoat](#): > > I haven’t talked to anyone that has said “cut everything except military spending!”, That would be virtually the entire Republican party these days with the exception of a few pragmatics such as Huntsman and some libertarians. > [@](#): > > nor would I agree with that. And I doubt that Germany has such a high percentage of entitled irresponsible citizens as we do. Welfare only works if those getting it are working hard to get off of it. What makes you suggest America’s poor is more “irresponsible” then Germany’s? Americans generally work longer than Germans do for example. > [@](#): > > I imagine many things have changed since the 60’s. Including the existence of good social programs to help the poor although admittedly this has been outweighed in many cases by growing income inequality since the 1980s. > [@](#): > > What experts? Has someone come up with a way to count people who are doing their best to not be found? > > Perhaps. OTOH, things are still better here than down there, so maybe not. Like I said, I don’t know how anyone can know for sure since I don’t know how anyone can get anything close to an accurate count. Methodology is discussed here: [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illegal\_immigrant\_population\_of\_the\_United\_States](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illegal_immigrant_population_of_the_United_States) > [@](#): > > OK. Apparently there are others who think that stopping the flow of bodies over the border is a good idea. And things like EVerify along with relaxing immigration laws is the best way to counter further illegal immigration rather than building a Berlin Wall on the border. > [@](#): > > I cannot imagine that poor illegals are buying enough of anything to pay enough sales taxes to cover what they take out of MediCal, DentiCal, WIC, etc. No because while virtually illegal immigrants will buy something that pays sales taxes, very few manage to sneak themselves into a social support program. Even if they do, the costs are probably less overall then if they had no health coverage and ended up in the emergency room. > [@](#): > > You want the Feds to pay out all of the welfare programs, not the states? In the sense of the Feds forming a general fund, yes, so that states do not have a race to the bottom to slash welfare and thus slash taxes to attract low-wage businesses. What is the poverty level these days? [/QUOTE] ---
**Author:** ![curlcoat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ea5d25/32.png) [@curlcoat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/curlcoat)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2013, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-right-wing-conservativism-is-so-great-why-do-their-states-suck/670301/180 "2013-10-14T02:54:07Z")
> [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](#): > > You’re just engaging in America’s national pastime of self-reproach, Not me - I’m not an entitled fuckwit that expects the government to support me and my family. > [@](#): > > In 2005 Germany did reduce the length of time one could take public assistance, and at the same time combined unemployment benefits with other kinds of cash assistance, suggesting that there was perceived to be some level of abuse of the system prior to that time. Then, Germany is not a “far more robust welfare state” as **Qin Shi Huangdi** said? I really have no idea either way, since I don’t feel there is any way one can compare success or failure in one country to what is going on in a second country. There are simply too many variables. > [@](#): > > However, it’s pretty hard to compare the relative cost of such programs in the two countries. In many areas, such as healthcare, a higher level of support from the government is standard, and American conservatives might criticize this arrangement as welfare. Or they might criticize it as I do - a really bad idea. I worked with the government doing Medicaid and Medicare payments and the level of stupid, incompetence and fraud there could never even be approached by any insurance company. > [@](#): > > One reason may be German employment law, which makes it much [harder to fire people.](http://www.economist.com/blogs/freeexchange/2011/08/fiscal-policy-0) That seems scary, given the US equivalent - civil service. > [@](#): > > By common wisdom, this makes employers much more reluctant to hire new people, yet currently the overall result is that the German unemployment rate is currently but a fraction of the American rate. And this pretty much flies in the face of conservative reasoning, by which greater regulation of the private sector is a job killer. Well, of course their employment rate is lower, if it’s hard to fire them. > [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > That would be virtually the entire Republican party these days with the exception of a few pragmatics such as Huntsman and some libertarians. I wouldn’t know - I’m not a Republican, nor do I follow what any of the talking heads are saying. > [@](#): > > What makes you suggest America’s poor is more “irresponsible” then Germany’s? Americans generally work longer than Germans do for example. Because it’s cause=effect for me, due to having lived for years among, and as, a very poor person. Shoot, if nothing else, these days one can make more on the dole than working an entry level job, but I also saw a whole generation of people grow up with the attitude that they were owed whatever they wanted, and that they should have it when they wanted it. Granted, that was decades ago in another state, but even here and living middle class, I still see people who have things that I can’t afford buying their groceries and fast food with EBT. People running up debt and then just defaulting. People who state that their safety net is the government. These are not people who feel they need to be responsible for themselves. > [@](#): > > Including the existence of good social programs to help the poor although admittedly this has been outweighed in many cases by growing income inequality since the 1980s. Yup, the middle class is slowly being choked to death. > [@](#): > > Methodology is discussed here: [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illegal\_immigrant\_population\_of\_the\_United\_States](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illegal_immigrant_population_of_the_United_States) So essentially, they are admitting they don’t know. > [@](#): > > And things like EVerify along with relaxing immigration laws is the best way to counter further illegal immigration rather than building a Berlin Wall on the border. Uh no. The best way to counter further immigration is to figure out some way to get Mexico to not be a third world country. Progress has been made in Tijuana, but the people themselves need education and birth control for a start. > [@](#): > > No because while virtually illegal immigrants will buy something that pays sales taxes, very few manage to sneak themselves into a social support program. Even if they do, the costs are probably less overall then if they had no health coverage and ended up in the emergency room. As we cannot know how many illegals are actually here, neither can we know how many have forged papers so they can get welfare and other handouts. Even if they don’t have MediCal, if they end up in the emergency room, they are still going to cost less than if MediCal pays to birth and raise all of their children and DentiCal pays to take care of their teeth. This business of people without insurance ending up costing us so much by using the ER seems to be a red herring anyway. I’ve lately ended up sitting in ERs and only saw maybe 15% of the people who came get anything more than an exam and some drugs. Far _far_ cheaper than paying for well visits, allergy shots, physical therapy, eye doctors and on and on - all of the things that regular insurance covers and people, especially those with young children, tend to use. > [@](#): > > In the sense of the Feds forming a general fund, yes, so that states do not have a race to the bottom to slash welfare and thus slash taxes to attract low-wage businesses. Why would states want to attract low-wage businesses? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-right-wing-conservativism-is-so-great-why-do-their-states-suck/670301.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-right-wing-conservativism-is-so-great-why-do-their-states-suck/670301.md?page=10)