If right-wing conservativism is so great, why do their states suck?

[curlcoat]

@Qin_Shi_Huangdi

Yes to show you an example of what might happen.

Again, we do not live in Europe.

I agree that perfect equality of opportunity is impossible but that should not stop us from doing as much as possible to ensure equality of opportunity.

I don’t agree with this at all because it isn’t possible, and a lot of time, money and energy is already being expended trying to make the impossible come true. The reality of life is that there will always be people who don’t have “enough” money, or the smarts, connections, or whatever else to go to college. I was one of those - didn’t have the money to buy my way in, nor the grades to get any scholarships, plus I grew up in a - well, culture is not the right word but it’s all I can think of off the top of my head - that said that women don’t really need education past public school. Was that “fair”? No, but it also didn’t ruin my life.

And once again I emphasize that equality of opportunity is not equality of outcomes-people shouldn’t be equal in how much money they make but people with the same aptitude should have the same chance of getting into college and staying there regardless of the income of their families.

Not if other people have to pay for it. Here is another place where parents are selfish - they have more kids than they can afford to provide a good future for. If a parent isn’t starting a college fund for each kid as they are born, and contributing to it regularly, why should they expect that someone else should be responsible for their kids’ college expenses?

Unless of course Mr Faster and Higher is from a wealthy family who did not have to worry about student loans.

Still doesn’t make any difference to your success, unless you just spend your life being jealous of him.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consolidated_Omnibus_Budget_Reconciliation_Act_of_1985

So now you wish to add to your auto worker story?

Quite a few people.

Hasn’t been yet.

In other words not cover one of their biggest health problems, which renders it not much of an insurance.

Do you see anything in shades of grey? For one thing, someone could have a preexisting health issue that isn’t really that much of a problem for them, or isn’t all that expensive to treat. For another, there have to be forty million other things that having insurance would be good for, including things like accidental injuries. You talk like someone who thinks they should only pay for insurance if they know they are going to use it right off and often; you know, get something for free essentially.

To order to ensure the assimilation of immigrants.

You are going to have to explain how cranking up the making of babies would ensure the assimilation of immigrants.

Yes of course. Unless you oppose all welfare programs, the question is just of degree.

Wow. You think that just because some people have the gall to have more money than you, they should be required to support you?

The answer in a single chart: http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/post/medicare-vs-private-insurance-in-one-graph/2011/08/25/gIQACp0tlP_blog.html

Medicaid, indeed, appears just as effective in controlling costs as Medicare.

Well, for one thing that was a chart on Medicare. And all it did was say that Medicare spends less per beneficiary than private insurance, which is indeed a fact - because they pay out less than most if not all private insurances. That’s why anyone who can afford it buys a Medicare supplement from a private company. And, unless things have changed radically since I paid Medicare claims, they don’t do anything to try to control costs outside of Medicare itself (and probably not within either).

Sound bites are not a good source of information.

[Qin_Shi_Huangdi]

@curlcoat

Again, we do not live in Europe.

Europe is not a different universe with totally divergent physical laws the last time I checked.

I don’t agree with this at all because it isn’t possible, and a lot of time, money and energy is already being expended trying to make the impossible come true. The reality of life is that there will always be people who don’t have “enough” money, or the smarts, connections, or whatever else to go to college. I was one of those - didn’t have the money to buy my way in, nor the grades to get any scholarships, plus I grew up in a - well, culture is not the right word but it’s all I can think of off the top of my head - that said that women don’t really need education past public school. Was that “fair”? No, but it also didn’t ruin my life.

I’m not saying motivated people like you can’t break out of such restrictive conditions, but it does become a lot harder. And such programs to expand equality of opportunity have been successful-the percentage of people with college educations are far higher than they were a few generations ago.

Not if other people have to pay for it. Here is another place where parents are selfish - they have more kids than they can afford to provide a good future for. If a parent isn’t starting a college fund for each kid as they are born, and contributing to it regularly, why should they expect that someone else should be responsible for their kids’ college expenses?

Which is why I don’t favour Yemeni-level birth-rates or indeed anything beyond 2 or 3 children.

Still doesn’t make any difference to your success, unless you just spend your life being jealous of him.

The fact is equality of opportunity would not exist in such a case.

So now you wish to add to your auto worker story?

I apologize since I thought that in my example I mentioned that the company as a whole had gone out of business rather than just the factory itself. Still the point stands that COBRA coverage will have numerous gaps.

Hasn’t been yet.

?

Do you see anything in shades of grey? For one thing, someone could have a preexisting health issue that isn’t really that much of a problem for them, or isn’t all that expensive to treat.

The problems lies with those whose problems are severe and/or expensive to treat.

For another, there have to be forty million other things that having insurance would be good for, including things like accidental injuries. You talk like someone who thinks they should only pay for insurance if they know they are going to use it right off and often; you know, get something for free essentially.

No I don’t. Considering I’m relatively young and don’t seem to have any chronic diseases, I don’t expect to use healthcare all that much but I’m willing to buy health insurance.

You are going to have to explain how cranking up the making of babies would ensure the assimilation of immigrants.

So that there are enough natives (at least if there’s no white flight) in places such as schools to absorb the new immigrants (of course this ideally would require immigration to be relatively dispersed in where they settle). And by high birth-rates I just mean “above replacement” (ie above 2.1)

Wow. You think that just because some people have the gall to have more money than you, they should be required to support you?

When did I say this was all about me? My opinion is that in a wealthy society like the United States, nobody should be starving to death or dying for lack of health insurance, and so forth. And the point still stands that unless you are a minarchist or anarcho-capitalist of some sort that opposes any and all form of welfare and social spending, you believe it to a certain degree.

Well, for one thing that was a chart on Medicare. And all it did was say that Medicare spends less per beneficiary than private insurance, which is indeed a fact - because they pay out less than most if not all private insurances. That’s why anyone who can afford it buys a Medicare supplement from a private company. And, unless things have changed radically since I paid Medicare claims, they don’t do anything to try to control costs outside of Medicare itself (and probably not within either).

Sound bites are not a good source of information.

[/

This concerned the percentage growth in costs of Medicare and Medicaid, not the monetary value of costs.

[curlcoat]

@Qin_Shi_Huangdi

Europe is not a different universe with totally divergent physical laws the last time I checked.

It is a land mass of many different countries, with different cultures than the US. I have never been there - have you?

I’m not saying motivated people like you can’t break out of such restrictive conditions, but it does become a lot harder. And such programs to expand equality of opportunity have been successful-the percentage of people with college educations are far higher than they were a few generations ago.

You want to hand unmotivated people the money to go to college? Don’t you think molly-coddling people who aren’t motivated to help themselves is a bad idea?

The fact is equality of opportunity would not exist in such a case.

And I’m telling you - it can’t. No matter how much liberals try to make everything fair for everyone, it just cannot be. Have a look at history; there has never been a time when everyone was fair and equal. What we have here in this country is an opportunity to make something of yourself, but that doesn’t translate into “rich” people paying to send everyone to college, helping them buy houses and helping them to raise their children.

I apologize since I thought that in my example I mentioned that the company as a whole had gone out of business rather than just the factory itself. Still the point stands that COBRA coverage will have numerous gaps.

There are only gaps in COBRA are if a few things happen to prevent it from being in effect.

The problems lies with those whose problems are severe and/or expensive to treat.

And how many of those exist who have never had the opportunity to buy insurance before those problems arose?

No I don’t. Considering I’m relatively young and don’t seem to have any chronic diseases, I don’t expect to use healthcare all that much but I’m willing to buy health insurance.

“Willing to buy”. Meaning, you haven’t done so, yet you have a child? It begins to sound like you are that irresponsible person who waits until they have some expensive thing happen before they decide it might be worth it to buy insurance. And then get all bent out of shape when their preexisting condition isn’t covered. And then turn to the government to pay for their care.

So that there are enough natives (at least if there’s no white flight) in places such as schools to absorb the new immigrants (of course this ideally would require immigration to be relatively dispersed in where they settle). And by high birth-rates I just mean “above replacement” (ie above 2.1)

Breeding whites like rabbits isn’t going to do a thing for any of that.

When did I say this was all about me? My opinion is that in a wealthy society like the United States, nobody should be starving to death or dying for lack of health insurance, and so forth. And the point still stands that unless you are a minarchist or anarcho-capitalist of some sort that opposes any and all form of welfare and social spending, you believe it to a certain degree.

Even if the US was this wealthy society you seem to think it is, there will always be people starving to death or dying because of no insurance because they made irresponsible decisions. I don’t have a problem with there being welfare programs, I have a problem with it having been extended to people who have no intention of working their way up in the world, and that they are encouraged to have children. I’m tired of paying high taxes to reward irresponsible people.

This concerned the percentage growth in costs of Medicare and Medicaid, not the monetary value of costs.

Again, it was only about Medicare, and of course costs would grow over the years.

[rogerbox]

You always say that you “pay taxes”, but as many people keep pointing out that term does not mean what you think it does.

[curlcoat]

@rogerbox

You always say that you “pay taxes”, but as many people keep pointing out that term does not mean what you think it does.

1. Educate yourself on SSDI then come back and apologize.

2. Just because many people say something doesn’t make it fact.

[rogerbox]

So how much did you pay in taxes last year? Oh, you’re on disability so you didn’t. Which I have no problem with, except for when you repeatedly pretend that collecting on disability you paid into in the past, makes you a tax payer now.

[curlcoat]

@rogerbox

So how much did you pay in taxes last year? Oh, you’re on disability so you didn’t. Which I have no problem with, except for when you repeatedly pretend that collecting on disability you paid into in the past, makes you a tax payer now.

You didn’t bother doing any research did you? Just makes you look like more of a twit. Try Googling whether or not people on disability pay taxes, eh?

[Qin_Shi_Huangdi]

@curlcoat

It is a land mass of many different countries, with different cultures than the US. I have never been there - have you?

That’s irrelevant-we have the data that matters at our fingertips on the Internet and most Europeans’ daily lives are fundamentally same as their counterparts in the US-they watch TV, commute to work, eat at McDonald’s for lunch, wear Nike and Adidas products etc.

You want to hand unmotivated people the money to go to college? Don’t you think molly-coddling people who aren’t motivated to help themselves is a bad idea?

Who says they are unmotivated? But plenty of people looking for jobs may not be able to find or be unable to fully pay for college or find their work periods interfering with their college studies.

And I’m telling you - it can’t. No matter how much liberals try to make everything fair for everyone, it just cannot be. Have a look at history; there has never been a time when everyone was fair and equal. What we have here in this country is an opportunity to make something of yourself, but that doesn’t translate into “rich” people paying to send everyone to college, helping them buy houses and helping them to raise their children.

I am not asking for nor seeking perfect equality, but we can and have used government policies to achieve greater equality of opportunity than in the past. And when did I say anything about helping them buy houses? I support public housing but only apartment blocks since those are more efficient.

There are only gaps in COBRA are if a few things happen to prevent it from being in effect.

Which are fairly significant (such as companies going out of business).

And how many of those exist who have never had the opportunity to buy insurance before those problems arose?

Maybe because there were precious few incentives to do so in the US economy?

“Willing to buy”. Meaning, you haven’t done so, yet you have a child? It begins to sound like you are that irresponsible person who waits until they have some expensive thing happen before they decide it might be worth it to buy insurance. And then get all bent out of shape when their preexisting condition isn’t covered. And then turn to the government to pay for their care.

No I’m under 18, so I’m covered by MediCal. What I meant was after I reach adulthood.

Breeding whites like rabbits isn’t going to do a thing for any of that.

TFR above 2.1 =/= “breeding like rabbits”

[QUOTE]

Even if the US was this wealthy society you seem to think it is, there will always be people starving to death or dying because of no insurance because they made irresponsible decisions. I don’t have a problem with there being welfare programs, I have a problem with it having been extended to people who have no intention of working their way up in the world, and that they are encouraged to have children. I’m tired of paying high taxes to reward irresponsible people.

In this case the establishment and expansion of welfare states should have caused baby booms-instead birth-rates have gone down in states with such policies.

Again, it was only about Medicare, and of course costs would grow over the years.

What do you mean? The chart is about both Medicare and Medicaid. And while costs do grow over the years, it seems clear Medicare is far better at controlling it.

[rogerbox]

@curlcoat

You didn’t bother doing any research did you? Just makes you look like more of a twit. Try Googling whether or not people on disability pay taxes, eh?

Not really. If foodstamps were suddenly taxed and someone was out of work, it’d be pretty stupid of that person to claim they “pay taxes”, too.

[Truman_Burbank]

n/m

[curlcoat]

@Qin_Shi_Huangdi

That’s irrelevant-we have the data that matters at our fingertips on the Internet and most Europeans’ daily lives are fundamentally same as their counterparts in the US-they watch TV, commute to work, eat at McDonald’s for lunch, wear Nike and Adidas products etc.

It is still a collection of completely different societies with mindsets that could greatly change how things work. Things that I have brought up at least twice and you just wave away or ignore, like you ignored my question of whether or not you have ever been to Europe. I’m going to take that as a no, and then ask you why you think you should be making comparisons based on stuff you read on Google and Wiki.

Who says they are unmotivated?

You said it - motivated people go forth and get things done. Unmotivated people sit around and whine until someone hands them help.

But plenty of people looking for jobs may not be able to find or be unable to fully pay for college or find their work periods interfering with their college studies.

And? As I said before, it isn’t a race. Nor is college necessary to find a decent job.

I am not asking for nor seeking perfect equality, but we can and have used government policies to achieve greater equality of opportunity than in the past.

By creating unequal taxation. The “greater equality of opportunity” of yours is just another way of saying that those who make it to middle class, and seriously on those who try to retire as middle class, must pay to feed, clothe, house and educate the children of the poor.

And when did I say anything about helping them buy houses? I support public housing but only apartment blocks since those are more efficient.

Public housing are ghettos. The buying houses is the mortgage bailout.

Which are fairly significant (such as companies going out of business).

I am not interested in vague statements like “fairly significant”.

Maybe because there were precious few incentives to do so in the US economy?

Yes, I realize that far too many people think there are precious few incentives to be responsible for oneself these days, which is probably the number one reason why things went to hell here. Why put off buying that SUV when the government will take care of your health care?

No I’m under 18, so I’m covered by MediCal. What I meant was after I reach adulthood.

Oh FFS - come back when you have some real world experience. No wonder you want someone to pay for your college, right when you want it.

TFR above 2.1 =/= “breeding like rabbits”

It does when you are encouraging them to “breed more”.

In this case the establishment and expansion of welfare states should have caused baby booms-instead birth-rates have gone down in states with such policies.

Cite.

What do you mean? The chart is about both Medicare and Medicaid. And while costs do grow over the years, it seems clear Medicare is far better at controlling it.

I don’t know where the link is any more, but what I saw was simply a chart on Medicare costs over the years. It wasn’t about Medicaid and there was nothing “clear” about Medicare being better at controlling cost (what costs) than anyone else (who?).

@rogerbox

Not really. If foodstamps were suddenly taxed and someone was out of work, it’d be pretty stupid of that person to claim they “pay taxes”, too.

Well, actually, there are plenty of people in here who make claims about how much folks on food stamps pay, because they pay sales tax, and their rent must include what their landlords pay in property tax.

Not going to apologize for being an asshole in your ignorance, eh?

[rogerbox]

When you explain how being on disability is paying taxes I might.

[VinylTurnip]

@curlcoat

Oh FFS - come back when you have some real world experience. No wonder you want someone to pay for your college, right when you want it.

The inexperienced whippersnapper you address is fairly mopping the floor with your society-burdening ass, which is where you ought to retract this bit of failed condescension.

Age is no guarantee of wisdom, as you’ve eagerly helped to demonstrate.

[Maserschmidt]

@puddleglum

This is the most extreme example but it is far from isolated. Since 2000 Massachusetts has lost 5% of its population to other states.
Most of the migration is due to economic opportunity and not climate since the state with the best climate, California, has been hemorraghing people and states with horrible climates like Texas and North Dakota have been growing by leaps and bounds.
This has been the trend for the past 50 years, states that had great legacies of rich economies, good universities, and quality infrastructure have been in a downward spiral due to tax and spend liberalism. While states that used to be poor and backward have been surging, attracting huge numbers of dissatisfied blue staters.

That’s a really great story, puddleglum, except the vast majority of migration out of Massachusetts has been to other blue states. Do you want to rethink the Massachusetts story?

5.pdf

[curlcoat]

@rogerbox

When you explain how being on disability is paying taxes I might.

Instead of finding out how you can quit looking like a completely ignorant ass, you are just going to keep posting? Shrug - your problem, not mine.

@VinylTurnip

The inexperienced whippersnapper you address is fairly mopping the floor with your society-burdening ass, which is where you ought to retract this bit of failed condescension.

The inexperienced whippersnapper knows next to nothing about insurance/health care, which he keeps proving by posting generic facts as cites for his belief that everything would be wonderful if we continued to destroy the middle class by requiring them to pay to support and educate everyone who wasn’t born with the money to do it themselves.

You show your lack of intelligence by saying that I am a burden on society, when I am not. Like rogerbox, you would do well to educate yourself on SSDI.

[rogerbox]

@curlcoat

Instead of finding out how you can quit looking like a completely ignorant ass, you are just going to keep posting? Shrug - your problem, not mine.

No, see, I figured you’ve been posting on the SDMB and being wrong long enough to understand it isn’t my job to form your arguments for you.

[curlcoat]

@rogerbox

No, see, I figured you’ve been posting on the SDMB and being wrong long enough to understand it isn’t my job to form your arguments for you.

It isn’t that I’m not forming my argument - what is supposed to happen here is you aren’t defending your (incorrect) statement that people on SSDI don’t pay any taxes. I’m the one on SSDI, I know you are wrong. If you still want to believe you are right, you need to prove it.

As for me being wrong, when that happens I admit it. You, not so much. Instead of spending one minute on Google, you’d rather try to get folks to forget your error thru insult and misdirection.

[fluiddruid]

@curlcoat

a) I was talking about when I was living below the poverty line.

Then why did you use the present tense and not the past tense?

b) Note that “some low-income people”. I’m not going to bother Googling around to see what that might mean, but I just had a friend refused MediCal because she isn’t a mother, disabled or a senior - otherwise her income status was plenty low enough.

You mentioned neither age nor disability, you simply said you had to have kids to get aid. That’s wrong. And one anecdote is a stupid response to a bunch of actual cites. I certainly never asserted that any low-income person was eligible, simply that having kids was not a prerequisite.

c) What Iowa is going to do in 2014 with the advent of Obamacare is immaterial.

If it’s immaterial, don’t speak in the present tense. That’s the present statement of eligibility right on the main site. I didn’t go looking for future actions, I looked for the currently relevant situation. If you want to talk about some other year, then be specific. Otherwise I think assuming that the present tense means now and not some other time is a fairly natural assumption.

d) What Iowa’s SNAP eligibility rules are has zero to do with me back in the day in WA, however your own quote shows that an able bodied non-senior cannot get it.

That’s nice that you now want to rephrase in hindsight to include groups that don’t actually have any children despite your original assessment, but that has nothing to do with “That one cannot get Medicaid or food stamps or any of that unless one has children? You didn’t know that?” being wrong. Which it is. It’s wrong.

Words mean things. If you mean that it’s unlikely that you get aid in most states if you’re not in one of several disadvantaged groups, say that, not something else.

I suggest you check your facts before saying mine are wrong.

I suggest you try not to move the goalposts to disprove me and defend what you actually said, or have the decency to say you spoke too vaguely or broadly. Don’t use your own personal experience to sum up the current situation for everyone if you don’t want to be held to task on it.

[fluiddruid]

@curlcoat

You didn’t bother doing any research did you? Just makes you look like more of a twit. Try Googling whether or not people on disability pay taxes, eh?

Do you pay more in taxes than you receive in benefits? If not, saying you “pay taxes” is at least partially disingenuous - yes, it’s true you pay some tax (I’m sure you paid sales tax on something, if nothing else) but it’s implying that you’re paying into the system and not being a net financial drain.

Imagine if someone was in a business screaming at a clerk that they were a “paying customer”, because they were there buying goods for a nickel on the dollar as a part of a charitable discount program for the underprivileged. Are they paying? Well, technically, but the business is taking a loss to help them out.

[rogerbox]

@curlcoat

It isn’t that I’m not forming my argument - what is supposed to happen here is you aren’t defending your (incorrect) statement that people on SSDI don’t pay any taxes. I’m the one on SSDI, I know you are wrong. If you still want to believe you are right, you need to prove it.

No, you made the positive assertion that you are a taxpayer when it is well known that according to you, you do not work and receive disability. Therefore, it is YOUR homework to back up your dubious claim that you are a taxpayer. It is NOT my job to read your mind and try to figure out what bizarre logic you are using to claim you’re a tax payer.

As for me being wrong, when that happens I admit it.

Actually, pretty much everything you say here is wrong, and you’ve yet to refute the majority of your SDMB posting history, so this statement is not factually correct at all.