If right-wing conservativism is so great, why do their states suck?

[Qin_Shi_Huangdi]

@Yllaria

I haven’t looked into the numbers, but I’m curious whether the numbers take leaving retirees into account. My parents were part of a small stream of California retirees who sold their paid off house at California prices and moved out of state to buy a much larger place for a lot less.

This raises the question of why old people would wish to leave mild California summers and winters to places with with 90 degree summers in Texas or 100 degree summers in Arizona. Not to mention there is no real use for a larger place once one is retired and presumably with the dependents grown up-it would merely require more physical exertion to maintain the property.

@puddleglum

This is not true at all. Black people are moving to the South in huge numbers. pdf
While at the same time black people are leaving liberal havens like San Fransisco which has lost 36% of its black residents in the past 20 years.

In some urban areas where black populations are decreasing such as San Francisco or Manhattan, the white population is increasing and both are due to gentrification trends (incidentally San Francisco gained white population from 2000-2010 while far more conservative Orange County lost white population).

What is happening is that liberal policies drive out the middle class who have to go elsewhere for jobs and leave only the rich who can afford high taxes and private schools and the poor who dont have the resources to leave. The end result is California where you have Silicon Valley and Hollywood which are filled with rich white people. Then you have the inland which is poor and minority filled. Of the 20 cities with the highest unemployment rates in the country 12are in California. Yet the rich liberals keep voting for job killing taxes and regulations.

Most of those cities listed are Central Valley cities highly dependent on the agricultural economy which often tends to be fluid.

Also there are plenty of good middle class areas in California with good schools, many of which

@curlcoat

And many of those retirees move out of California because they don’t want to see their retirements eaten by taxes, despite what BobLibDem thinks. The state spends so much money supporting those here illegally and/or who cannot be arsed to take care of themselves, that we have retirees leaving as soon as they can sell their houses. The husband and I both have pensions and IRAs, and the plan was to reverse mortgage the house and stay here after he retires but that may not work out. The taxes and cost of living is going up so fast that it may turn out that we would not only be better off elsewhere, it could be that we would be VERY much better off.

Most people on welfare are not bums or parasitical but are unable to get a job due to age/disability/whatever, or unable to find a job or unable to maintain a decent standard of living even with a job. In addition studies have shown that since the American population is aging, immigrants are increasingly contributors to welfare programs especially since they use it much less compared to the native population.

And the more folks with incomes who move out of California, the closer the state slips to full over bankruptcy. Not that Gov Moonbeam seems to be aware of this.

You do realize California had a surplus budget this year under Governor Brown (who incidentally is a fiscally conservative Democrat despite some of his odd New Ager vibes) which it did not enjoy under the Governator?

@curlcoat

More ignorance. Social security is not aid of any kind, any more than any pension is aid. Food stamps, subsidized housing, MediCal, DentiCal, etc - those are aid. Those are things that the government just gives out whether the recipients have paid into the system or not. Back when those programs were first formed, they were just supposed to be a helping hand, but now there are far too many people who consider it a way of life.

You forget there is a recession going on in this country along with increasing income inequality and all that nice stuff. It is natural that the use of welfare programs should be common.

Actually, what is totally funny is you are spending all this effort judging me for - wait for it - judging people. Except my target isn’t anyone specific, I’d just like it if people would start being responsible for themselves and if California would quit coming up with more and more ways to pay people to not be responsible. You are showing your superior point of view by pretending that my point of view is unique and trying to insult me into submission. Good job.

More “lazy welfare bums!” rhetoric.

[Bridget_Burke]

@woodstockbirdybird

Fucking go. You’re bringing down the rest of us Californians with your stupid bullshit.

Just as long as she doesn’t come to Texas. We’re trying to improve the place!

[ITR_champion]

@Karrius

My entire contention was with ITR Champion’s claims of how republicans respect freedom of religion, while democrats don’t. Which is laughable and awful. Note how he reacted to the republicans who cheered and applauded at burning mosques.

I don’t recall making any reaction at all to Republicans who “cheered and applauded at burning mosques”. Is there any video tape of Republicans cheering and applauding at burning mosques? Perhaps an audio recording? Even a transcript of exactly what was said?

I am aware that Barack Obama has used drones to slaughter many Muslim civilians, and that Democrats are apparently fine with this since they happily voted him a second term and continue to support him.

[BobLibDem]

Mr. Obama does not intentionally kill Muslim civilians for the purpose of getting Muslims. However, many Americans, chiefly in red states and virtually exclusively Republican, would cheerfully deny American Muslims the right to worship as they choose. Remember the big huff over the “mosque” at Ground Zero? The right wing red state crowd believes that the First Amendment is to ensure the rights of Christians. Who gets their panties in a twist over wanting prayer (Christian prayers, of course) in public schools? Red staters. Who wants to enforce their sexual morality on others? Red staters. Where is homophobia most rampant? Red states. Red staters suck ass.

[ITR_champion]

I’m sure all of the Muslims that Obama has killed are happy to know that Obama didn’t kill them because they were Muslims. Or rather they would be happy, if Obama hadn’t killed them.

[Karrius]

I don’t recall making any reaction at all to Republicans who “cheered and applauded at burning mosques”. Is there any video tape of Republicans cheering and applauding at burning mosques? Perhaps an audio recording? Even a transcript of exactly what was said?

That’s my entire goddamn point. You did not say a goddamn thing. If a video link is provided, what will you do - will you then admit that republicans have some pretty fucked up priorities, or not? I can provide a link later when I have sound to be sure I have the right video, but I doubt you’ll accept it - you already blew off two news reports as not mattering. I mean, you could do some goddamn googling. I don’t see why it’s up to me to prove it happened when I already did.

It is, presumably, because you don’t see anything wrong with burning down mosques and cheering about it. If you did, you’d admit you, and the republcans were wrong. But that would take basic human decency, something republicans were never known to have.

I am aware that Barack Obama has used drones to slaughter many Muslim civilians, and that Democrats are apparently fine with this since they happily voted him a second term and continue to support him.

I do not support, and condemn the drone strikes, although I view them as no different than any other terrible act of war we have and continued to commit, which I am against. I am, however, convinced that Romney would have caused the deaths of even more people.

[Hentor_the_Barbarian]

@ITR_champion

I don’t recall making any reaction at all to Republicans who “cheered and applauded at burning mosques”. Is there any video tape of Republicans cheering and applauding at burning mosques? Perhaps an audio recording? Even a transcript of exactly what was said?

I am aware that Barack Obama has used drones to slaughter many Muslim civilians, and that Democrats are apparently fine with this since they happily voted him a second term and continue to support him.

Further evidence that your ability to think logically and formulate acceptable argumentation is for shit. How can you determine that a vote for Obama was an endorsement of drone strikes? Was there a non-drone strike alternative candidate?

[ITR_champion]

@Hentor_the_Barbarian

Was there a non-drone strike alternative candidate?

Gary Johnson called for ending American military involvement in the Middle East.

[Hentor_the_Barbarian]

@ITR_champion

Gary Johnson called for ending American military involvement in the Middle East.

Further deceitful underhanded bullshit argumentation from you. That wasn’t the question, was it? No. It was drone strikes.

Johnson’s wiki page says that he did not rule out drone strikes as an option, you deceitful piece of shit.

[ITR_champion]

@Hentor_the_Barbarian

Further deceitful underhanded bullshit argumentation from you. That wasn’t the question, was it? No. It was drone strikes.

Drone strikes are a type of military action. Gary Johnson’s statement that he opposed all military action in the Middle East would include opposing drone strikes. This is obvious, and it doesn’t speak very highly of your intelligence that you need to have it explained to you.

Johnson’s wiki page says that he did not rule out drone strikes as an option, you deceitful piece of shit.

I’ve read his Wiki page; it doesn’t, at the present time, say what you claim it says. If you want to call me a deceitful piece of shit, perhaps you should try to keep your stream of outright lies down to about one per post; just a suggestion.

In any case, since you’ve demonstrated the level of honesty and maturity that we can expect from you here, I don’t imagine I’ll be coming back to this thread any more. Have a nice day.

[Hentor_the_Barbarian]

@ITR_champion

Drone strikes are a type of military action. Gary Johnson’s statement that he opposed all military action in the Middle East would include opposing drone strikes. This is obvious, and it doesn’t speak very highly of your intelligence that you need to have it explained to you.
I’ve read his Wiki page; it doesn’t, at the present time, say what you claim it says. If you want to call me a deceitful piece of shit, perhaps you should try to keep your stream of outright lies down to about one per post; just a suggestion.

In any case, since you’ve demonstrated the level of honesty and maturity that we can expect from you here, I don’t imagine I’ll be coming back to this thread any more. Have a nice day.

Gary Johnson

He also stated that while he thought drone attacks create more enemies than they kill, he would not necessarily stop the drone attacks against Pakistan or Yemen, leaving all options on the table.[23]

So, not only does ITR champion try to change the debate from endorsing drone strikes to overall military intervention in the middle east, he cannot do a basic internet search.

This guy is nothing but one deceit after another. I just caught him in another thread cutting out a whole paragraph from a quote and then claiming the author meant something completely different than what he actually wrote.

[suranyi]

@curlcoat

And many of those retirees move out of California because they don’t want to see their retirements eaten by taxes, despite what BobLibDem thinks. The state spends so much money supporting those here illegally and/or who cannot be arsed to take care of themselves, that we have retirees leaving as soon as they can sell their houses. The husband and I both have pensions and IRAs, and the plan was to reverse mortgage the house and stay here after he retires but that may not work out. The taxes and cost of living is going up so fast that it may turn out that we would not only be better off elsewhere, it could be that we would be VERY much better off.

And the more folks with incomes who move out of California, the closer the state slips to full over bankruptcy. Not that Gov Moonbeam seems to be aware of this.

Great! You can stay and pay all the taxes!

I do pay a huge amount of taxes to California. (I’m a well-paid software engineer.) I still wouldn’t live anywhere else.

[Yllaria]

@Qin_Shi_Huangdi

This raises the question of why old people would wish to leave mild California summers and winters to places with with 90 degree summers in Texas or 100 degree summers in Arizona. Not to mention there is no real use for a larger place once one is retired and presumably with the dependents grown up-it would merely require more physical exertion to maintain the property. . . .

No clue in general. Speaking only for my parents, they grew up in southern California when it wasn’t so built up. As an example, they told a story about a Navy jet fighter that crashed near their high school while they were attending. It smeared over the same area as three city blocks and didn’t hit anything but celery. They absolutely hated suburban developments with, to them, no yard.

They ended up in Idaho, which is also not an improvement in weather. But, hey, they didn’t have a job, so they didn’t have to go out in it if they didn’t want to. And they could hire someone to mow the bigger lawn or shovel snow, if they wanted. Not that they did. In fact, Mom happily worked in a garden that was bigger than a development back yard we’d had once.

[SteveG1]

@curlcoat

…

Great! You can stay and pay all the taxes!

Now about those subsidies California pays for, that go to these other so well managed and enlightened states …

[SteveG1]

@Really_Not_All_That_Bright

If he’s talking about wage earners, that would seem to exclude you, wouldn’t it?

oh, BURN!

[SteveG1]

@Really_Not_All_That_Bright

If he’s talking about wage earners, that would seem to exclude you, wouldn’t it?

@SteveG1

oh, BURN!

Is it just me, or does it seem a lot of MY tax money goes to support TEA PARTY ASSHOLES who don’t want “us” to have jack shit, but are themselves far too often ON THE DOLE?

[drew870mitchell]

@Really_Not_All_That_Bright

I understand your point, but it’s important to remember that states’ economic, educational, and quality-of-life measures are the result (at least in part) of the political and legal questions you distinguish. People in West Siloam Springs may be no different from people in Siloam Springs, but they live under different governments with different budgets and under different sets of laws. Their schools get nearly $2,000 less per pupil, for example.

And you unwittingly illustrate exactly the point I’m making. You seem to have looked up the average per-pupil funding for AR and OK, which are $9,353 and $7,587.

Those are averages over the entire state, running from urban and spendy districts like Little Rock ($10,442) to rural ones like Parkers Chapel ($6,604).

It tells me a lot more to know that Siloam Springs spends $7,510 per pupil, at 4,023 students, and while WSS doesn’t seem to have its own district it appears to be covered by either Colcord (596 students, $7,059), Moseley (304, $6,573), or Watts (400, $8,316).

To restate my case: state averages don’t matter when you are comparing localities (scale, people), and if you wanted to find trends in just about anything, you’re much better off with thousands of data points on the local level where the most direct influence is likely to begin with as opposed to fifty data points ungracefully shoved together where a single point (weighted or not - once you get into this level of statistics confusion reigns so much that I’ve seen both) may average together the ghetto in DFW or Houston with tumbleweeds in West Texas.

Source: I tried NCES, but their website is shuttered due to the ongoing circus in Washington, so I resorted to Zillow when I found that they fortuitously have district pages with exactly the information I was looking for (spending per pupil).

[madmonk28]

@SteveG1

Is it just me, or does it seem a lot of MY tax money goes to support TEA PARTY ASSHOLES who don’t want “us” to have jack shit, but are themselves far too often ON THE DOLE?

It’s not just you, it’s pretty much how it is.

[Qin_Shi_Huangdi]

@ITR_champion

I’m sure all of the Muslims that Obama has killed are happy to know that Obama didn’t kill them because they were Muslims. Or rather they would be happy, if Obama hadn’t killed them.

Drone strikes are a necessary element of the continuing War on Terror especially since some governments such as those of Yemen, Pakistan, and Somalia are unable to fully exert their authority in lawless areas that can become safe havens for terrorism. This is like saying that the atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki and the internment of Japanese-Americans were morally equivalent .

[curlcoat]

@woodstockbirdybird

People can absolutely get both state and federal aid. See TANF - though I guess that’s for families with kids, which I guess you don’t have. Still, it exists.

Of course it’s only for those with kids - almost everything is. However, what I said was that one cannot get both state and fed disability, not state and fed whatever.

Sure, but I don’t then go and complain about how nobody else should get those benefits because they’re somehow not as deserving.

You are complaining about me. Sure, you are trying to pretend you aren’t, but you are. And if you had any brains in your head, you’d be complaining about the huge drain put on the state by those who feel entitled to each and every benefit they can suck out of the government, without having actually done anything to deserve them. I don’t have any problem with giving help to those few who are on hard times thru actual no fault of their own, but people who live their whole lives on the dole, or who come here and drop a baby so they can get support are just looking for a free ride on the backs of those who have been working for their living.

So you’re getting your money and still whining? Because you live in fear of some theoretical day when it’s going to dry up because of perceived fiscal mismanagement? Anyway, your SS check doesn’t just come out of the money you put in, in case you’re actually that stupid (you are). Plenty of people never collect social security because they die before they’re eligible to receive it. And some people pay way more into it than others. Why are you OK taking their hard-earned money?

You really have a problem understanding the written word, don’t you? I said that the government has raided the SS fund to waste it on other things, so obviously I know that what they send now is not the result of them opening some savings account someplace with my money and now paying out of that. Just as the income I’ll receive from my other pensions will not come from some separate account, using money I paid in before.

And no, I don’t live in fear of SS going the way of the Dodo, if for no other reason than I don’t live in fear of anything, but mostly because we have been smart about our money and will not need it to survive.

They are programs, like SS, that we all pay into even though many of us will never receive the benefits because we as a society have decided it’s to our benefit. Sorry this isn’t a glorious Randian world yet.

If you want to assume that you will not get your SS, that is your problem, but it doesn’t change the fact that it is a pension plan, not welfare.

Lies.

Again, your perceptions or what you have decided to believe doesn’t mean it’s true.

It’s your problem anyway. I have no children to leave this screwed up world to, and we have the ability to move away from all of this stupidity, at least until we are too old to worry about it any more. I will resent being forced to leave what is the ideal climate for my health, but nobody said life was fair. Oh wait, that’s what they are trying to teach these days isn’t it. Maybe that’s the problem right there.