# If Rittenhouse had been disarmed by the victims, what would have happened to him? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [November 17, 2021, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-rittenhouse-had-been-disarmed-by-the-victims-what-would-have-happened-to-him/954524 "2021-11-17T18:55:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Horatius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/horatius/32/3572_2.png) [@Horatius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatius)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2021, 2:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-rittenhouse-had-been-disarmed-by-the-victims-what-would-have-happened-to-him/954524/42 "2021-11-18T02:08:44Z")
> [@XT](#): > > We didn’t ‘get used to it’…it’s been this way since the founding of the country if you are talking about the right to keep and bear arms. I think you did “get used to it”. It wasn’t that long ago that people understood that being confronted by an angry man with a gun was, in itself, sufficient reason to be concerned for your safety. The last ten years or so, though, that’s gone out the window. The proliferation of open carry and “stand your ground” type laws have made it such that “Hey, this guy yelling at me has a gun!” has been accepted as normal by far too many Americans, and is no longer considered a legitimate reason to consider that person a threat. Hell, you’ve gotten to the point where crowds of armed men storming into State legislatures with the stated intent of intimidating the members of the legislature has happened several times, and no one was arrested or charged with anything. ---
**Author:** ![Horatius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/horatius/32/3572_2.png) [@Horatius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatius)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2021, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-rittenhouse-had-been-disarmed-by-the-victims-what-would-have-happened-to-him/954524/43 "2021-11-18T02:14:46Z")
> [@mmmiiikkkeee](#): > > The question is in such crazy situations do the more sensible people in the crowd just stand back at a safe distance and watch the wilder people duke or shoot it out? Will the majority of sensible people swarm in and separate the fighting people like happens in a school yard, or is such behavior only seen in a school yard (sometimes)? Check out page 3 of this pdf: > **[active\_shooter\_booklet.pdf](https://www.dhs.gov/xlibrary/assets/active_shooter_booklet.pdf)** > > 984.55 KB Taking the shooter down is the last thing on the list of things to do, but it is on the list. ---
**Author:** ![K2500](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/f6c823/32.png) [@K2500](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/K2500)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2021, 2:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-rittenhouse-had-been-disarmed-by-the-victims-what-would-have-happened-to-him/954524/44 "2021-11-18T02:24:08Z")
Even carrying pistols seems like a gigantic pain it the ass. What with all the responsibilities it entails and the extra lbs to cart around day in and day out for what should only be a very low percentage chance of having to use it if you’re using appropriate situational awareness skills in an appropriate way. If they had managed to overpower and disarm him, a scared kid, I’d expect their inner badassness would have surfaced once they gained the upper hand and now it’s lesson time. Rittenhouse, at 17, was probably the size of a grown ass man but covered in fear and without any real fighting experience, a man of equal size 10-15 years older than him and already familiar with the use of violence has the upper hand, and there were several of them present. The kid would have been severely injured, crippled or killed in the mayhem by men who would have disappeared long before the cops arrived and who might or might not have ever been identified later. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2021, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-rittenhouse-had-been-disarmed-by-the-victims-what-would-have-happened-to-him/954524/45 "2021-11-18T02:31:49Z")
Obviously what would have happened was a citizen’s arrest. An actual one. Because that’s what you do, if you can, when some lunatic with a gun is trying to kill people, or has already killed people. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2021, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-rittenhouse-had-been-disarmed-by-the-victims-what-would-have-happened-to-him/954524/46 "2021-11-18T03:06:47Z")
There has been a lot of violence and criminal activity at riots, including people being shot. If a citizen’s arrest is the obvious outcome of such people being chased down, there should be oodles of accounts online, but my search turned up empty. How many citizen arrests at riots have you seen? On what do you base your ‘obvious’ assertion? Because it seems obvious to me that those guys would run like hell if the cops showed up. ---
**Author:** ![Moriarty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/moriarty/32/49_2.png) [@Moriarty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moriarty)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2021, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-rittenhouse-had-been-disarmed-by-the-victims-what-would-have-happened-to-him/954524/47 "2021-11-18T03:21:38Z")
I believe one of them would have whacked him upside the head with a skateboard. ---
**Author:** ![China\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/779978/32.png) [@China\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/China_Guy)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2021, 5:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-rittenhouse-had-been-disarmed-by-the-victims-what-would-have-happened-to-him/954524/48 "2021-11-18T05:27:13Z")
I have to call BS on this 2nd amendment hero wet dream fantasy little man with a gun in his hand justification. This isn’t between gang bangers or mafios, where getting popped with your own weapon may legitimately be a fear. This is an active shooter scenario in a crowd with bystanders reacting to disarm and hold the perp for the police. Haven’t seen school and Walmart shootings where perp gets killed by someone taking away his gun. Heck, in this thread has a firearm takeaway during Seattle demonstrations. Your average citizen that jumps in to stop an active shooter certainly ain’t gonna think twice about a violent take down that dislocates the shoulder _and_ breaks a jaw or give a few kicks to make sure the perp stays down. BUT they are not thinking gonna grab his gun and pop a cap in his brainpan. ---
**Author:** ![K2500](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/f6c823/32.png) [@K2500](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/K2500)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2021, 5:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-rittenhouse-had-been-disarmed-by-the-victims-what-would-have-happened-to-him/954524/49 "2021-11-18T05:48:52Z")
> [@China\_Guy](#): > > This isn’t between gang bangers or mafios, where getting popped with your own weapon may legitimately be a fear. This is an active shooter scenario in a crowd with bystanders reacting to disarm and hold the perp for the police. Haven’t seen school and Walmart shootings where perp gets killed by someone taking away his gun. It was a lot closer to the first scenario than the second but I agree it’s unlikely they would have used his gun against him. Equally unlikely as imagining they were legit going to detain him for the cops. Rittenhouse was going to get fucked up if they managed to disarm him. Perps, plural. They travelled there for the mayhem. They found it. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2021, 10:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-rittenhouse-had-been-disarmed-by-the-victims-what-would-have-happened-to-him/954524/50 "2021-11-18T10:27:10Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > Grosskuitz, the guy with the Glock who survived, has a lengthy arrest record for spousal abuse, theft, burglary, property damage, using a firearm while intoxicated, among others. He had previously been charged with multiple weapons offenses, and was prohibited from carrying the Glock he had. He was also a trained EMT carrying medical supplies - luckily for him, as it turned out. As already noted, he wasn’t prohibited from carrying the gun he had, and was carrying it for self-defense, just as Rittenhouse was. From [here](https://edition.cnn.com/2021/11/01/us/kyle-rittenhouse-shooting-victims-trial/index.html): > [@](#): > > Rittenhouse shot and injured Grosskreutz, who approached him shortly after Huber was shot, the criminal complaint alleged. > > Grosskreutz testified he was at the protest to provide medical care, and had packed his medical supplies, including a tourniquet and gauze, as well as his handgun, as he routinely did at other demonstrations. > > He testified that on the night of the shootings, he believed Rittenhouse was an active shooter, saying “people were pointing out the defendant, saying he had just shot somebody, that he’s trying to get away.” At some point, Grosskreutz testified, he drew his pistol. > > During cross-examination by Rittenhouse’s attorney, Grosskreutz said his handgun was pointing at Rittenhouse during the shooting. On redirect questioning by the prosecution, he clarified he never intentionally pointed his gun at Rittenhouse. > > He said he saw Rittenhouse fire at Huber and then moved toward Rittenhouse, telling jurors his hands were up, holding his own gun and phone. Grosskreutz said he “thought there was a high likelihood that I would be shot myself.” Usually the targets of right-wing smear campaigns determined to portray the victims of shootings as “violent thugs posing an imminent threat”… > [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > These were not concerned citizens trying to make an arrest. They were violent criminals looking to cause trouble, and found it, …suffer from being deceased and thus unable to tell their side of the story. But here the evidence supports Grosskreutz’s story. As per the above link: > [@](#): > > This week, Binger, the prosecutor, showed Grosskreutz’s shooting frame-by-frame which shows him appear to retreat before Rittenhouse is seen aiming his gun at him from two to three feet away. Once Grosskreutz was shot, the bullet severing his bicep, his arm lowered in an involuntary action, the prosecutor said. Also: > [@](#): > > Grosskreutz was wearing his “paramedic” hat that night. He said his goal during the protest was to provide medical care to anyone who needed it. He had trained as a paramedic before deciding to attend a liberal arts college in Wisconsin. As it happens, the tourniquet and bandages he was carrying turned out to come in very handy indeed; otherwise he might not have survived and we’d only have the representation of him as a violent criminal to go by. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2021, 10:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-rittenhouse-had-been-disarmed-by-the-victims-what-would-have-happened-to-him/954524/51 "2021-11-18T10:30:48Z")
> [@K2500](#): > > They travelled there for the mayhem. They found it. Sorry - which side are you referring to here? ---
**Author:** ![pkbites](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pkbites/32/204_2.png) [@pkbites](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pkbites)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2021, 11:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-rittenhouse-had-been-disarmed-by-the-victims-what-would-have-happened-to-him/954524/52 "2021-11-18T11:48:26Z")
> [@Joey\_P](#): > > Why would they have to prove anything? If you shoot someone, I grab your gun, pin you to the ground and wait for the cops. Then I tell cops that you shot that guy over there and hand the cops your gun…I’m not sure I’d have any legal issues to worry about. > What do you think I’d be charged with? Stealing your gun? If the person who shot can show they were justified in shooting, then whoever forcibly took his rifle could be charged with 943.32 (Robbery). > [@Broomstick](#): > > In this case, Rittenhouse was, apparently, able to legally obtain and carry a rifle but not yet old enough to do the same with a handgun in either his state of residence or in Wisconsin. (Disclaimer: IANAL or expert on gun carry in Wisconsin. Or anywhere else for that matter.) One can possess a handgun at 18 in Wisconsin and open carry it at that age as well. You do not need a license to open carry. OC is protected by the state constitution and recognized as legal by state statutes. Cannot receive a concealed weapons license until age 21 however one can carry concealed on ones own land, residence, or place of business without a CCW license, this includes 18-20 year olds. You cannot conceal in a vehicle unless you have a CCW license. This includes having it in the glove box or center console. Wisconsin does not issue licenses to non-residents. The tricky part is school zones. If you carry within 1000 feet of a school you are required to have a CCW license even if you are open carrying. However, as long as you don’t actually go on the grounds itself the violation is only a Class B forfeiture which is not a criminal charge. The entire licensure thing is ridiculous. You can freely carry a gun around in the open but if you cover it up you need a license? How absurd! ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2021, 12:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-rittenhouse-had-been-disarmed-by-the-victims-what-would-have-happened-to-him/954524/53 "2021-11-18T12:05:58Z")
> [@pkbites](#): > > One can possess a handgun at 18 in Wisconsin and open carry it at that age as well. Rittenhouse was 17 at the time and could not legally posses a handgun in Wisconsin. Hence the rifle. > [@pkbites](#): > > The entire licensure thing is ridiculous. You can freely carry a gun around in the open but if you cover it up you need a license? How absurd! I think the rationale is that if the weapon is carried openly everyone around the person is aware of the potential threat, but only trustworthy people can be allowed to carry a concealed weapon. You’re correct in that it doesn’t seem to make that much sense. ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2021, 12:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-rittenhouse-had-been-disarmed-by-the-victims-what-would-have-happened-to-him/954524/54 "2021-11-18T12:55:46Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > You’re correct in that it doesn’t seem to make that much sense. That’s because it is insane When the first man was shot the arms bearers could have removed the danger by shooting Rittenhouse. But, they didn’t. Apparently public gun fondling is a religious, sanctity of weapons ritual. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2021, 1:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-rittenhouse-had-been-disarmed-by-the-victims-what-would-have-happened-to-him/954524/55 "2021-11-18T13:05:45Z")
Well, they could have but not everyone holding a gun is looking for any excuse to open fire. Some people would rather not shoot another human being and may hesitant to do so unless certain there is no other way to resolve a problem. I have a friend who was armed when someone physically grabbed him and attempted to rob him. He opted to hit the guy over the head to disable him rather than open fire, although he could have easily done so and it would have been more clearly self-defense than what Rittenhouse did, with no ambiguity. The other thing is that if you fire at someone in a crowd and miss you’re very likely to hit someone else in that crowd. Someone you might not want to hit, or have a reason to shoot. So… refraining from shooting, even if you can, is sometimes the moral and rational thing to do, or at least a defensible thing to do, and not “public gun fondling”. I wasn’t there and I certainly haven’t seen all the evidence here. I’ll wait for what the jury decides. ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2021, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-rittenhouse-had-been-disarmed-by-the-victims-what-would-have-happened-to-him/954524/56 "2021-11-18T13:23:48Z")
So why were people carrying guns? ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2021, 1:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-rittenhouse-had-been-disarmed-by-the-victims-what-would-have-happened-to-him/954524/57 "2021-11-18T13:27:46Z")
Dunno. You’ll have to ask them. In the case of my friend - he has worked in some extremely bad neighborhoods where he had encountered people with guns intent on harming him. He’s inclined to respond to a gun pointed at him with a gun of his own, but not always inclined to escalate a non-gun situation to one with a gun. A LOT of Americans go around armed in a manner I, personally, find unnecessary. ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2021, 1:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-rittenhouse-had-been-disarmed-by-the-victims-what-would-have-happened-to-him/954524/58 "2021-11-18T13:30:15Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > Americans go around armed in a manner I, personally, find unnecessary Agreed. In reality it is unnecessary ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2021, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-rittenhouse-had-been-disarmed-by-the-victims-what-would-have-happened-to-him/954524/59 "2021-11-18T14:04:11Z")
> [@Horatius](#): > > I think you did “get used to it”. It wasn’t that long ago that people understood that being confronted by an angry man with a gun was, in itself, sufficient reason to be concerned for your safety. I suspect the ‘it’ we are discussing is different. The ‘it’ I was referring to was the concept of a right to keep and bear arms, and exercising that right. I suspect the ‘it’ you and others are referring to has to do with the perception that gun violence is massively out of control but that we have gotten desensitized to it. I think that’s incorrect. Anyway, had a long post to respond to this, but reading through it I think it’s a hijack from the OP so not going to post that. I’ll leave it that I disagree with your assertions and concede that you will definitely disagree with mine and move on. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![K2500](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/f6c823/32.png) [@K2500](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/K2500)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2021, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-rittenhouse-had-been-disarmed-by-the-victims-what-would-have-happened-to-him/954524/60 "2021-11-18T17:21:45Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > Sorry - which side are you referring to here? Both sides. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2021, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-rittenhouse-had-been-disarmed-by-the-victims-what-would-have-happened-to-him/954524/61 "2021-11-18T18:29:06Z")
> [@XT](#): > > I suspect the ‘it’ we are discussing is different. The ‘it’ I was referring to was the concept of a right to keep and bear arms, and exercising that right But exercising that right stops when you point your gun at other people. From what I understand of the information given in the trial, Rittenhouse pointed his gun at the protestors before anyone tried to take it from him. If someone points a gun at you, do you have the right to try to take it away from them? If they then kill you, can they claim self defense? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-rittenhouse-had-been-disarmed-by-the-victims-what-would-have-happened-to-him/954524.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-rittenhouse-had-been-disarmed-by-the-victims-what-would-have-happened-to-him/954524.md?page=4)