# If Robert Bales can escape the death penalty for killing 16 civilians why do we have it at all? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 24, 2013, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-robert-bales-can-escape-the-death-penalty-for-killing-16-civilians-why-do-we-have-it-at-all/667015 "2013-08-24T00:17:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 12\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![astorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2013, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-robert-bales-can-escape-the-death-penalty-for-killing-16-civilians-why-do-we-have-it-at-all/667015/21 "2013-08-26T19:58:48Z")
> [@Kinthalis](#): > > For black people. And for poor people. But especially for poor black people. So, you should have NO trouble at all naming me half a dozen black men executed by the US military in the last few years. Right? ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2013, 4:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-robert-bales-can-escape-the-death-penalty-for-killing-16-civilians-why-do-we-have-it-at-all/667015/22 "2013-08-27T04:10:46Z")
> [@Simplicio](#): > > See my previous posts. The military has sentenced to death several people since the penalty became legal again (none of whom commited crimes as severe as Bales). None have been executed because of the length of the appeals process, not because the military is philosophically averse to executions. Well, no, that’s not quite right. Unlike a civilian criminal system, in the military system, the commanding general in a particular area has the power to decide if the accused will face the death penalty (a power reserved to the prosecutor in the civil system), and also has the power to commute a death sentence, a power that in the civil system, is reserved for the President. There is evidence that different generals apply different standards to these powers. See [Military death row: More than 50 years and no executions](http://edition.cnn.com/2013/07/28/justice/military-death-penalty): > [@](#): > > “Even if you have two identical cases, one being prosecuted by one commander at one base and other being prosecuted by a commander at another base, you may have different outcomes because the commanders may have different philosophies,” said Dwight Sullivan, a former Marine prosecutor and judge who now works as a civilian attorney specializing in military death penalty appeals. > > Such was the case with Curtis Allen Gibbs, a Marine who was sentenced to death in 1990 for killing and nearly decapitating a woman with a sword near Camp Lejeune. > > **A jury returned a sentence of death for Gibbs, but a commanding general overturned the decision and gave him life. At the time, the general cited a reluctance to authorize the execution of a service member during a military conflict – the Persian Gulf War, according to published accounts.** > > “He didn’t want to impose the death penalty, and it struck me as strange because the jury had heard and evaluated all the evidence and decided that’s what he should get,” said Guy Womack, a retired Marine prosecutor who helmed the Gibbs case. It’s also not the case that it’s only the appeals process that results in a death sentence being overturned. > [@](#): > > A year later, President Ronald Reagan reinstated capital punishment in the military. **Of the 16 people sent to the military’s death row since 1984, 11 have had their sentences overturned. Two of those decisions were taken by commanding generals.** The other nine cases were overturned by military appeals courts over various questions about the application of law. So, two out of eleven death sentences were overturned because the general commanding didn’t want a soldier put to death, even though that was the verdict of the military court. ---
**Author:** ![jasg](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f0a364/32.png) [@jasg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jasg)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2013, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-robert-bales-can-escape-the-death-penalty-for-killing-16-civilians-why-do-we-have-it-at-all/667015/23 "2013-08-28T19:34:11Z")
> [@Cubsfan](#): > > [http://www.cnn.com/2013/08/23/justice/robert-bales-afghan-killings/index.html?hpt=hp\_t2](http://www.cnn.com/2013/08/23/justice/robert-bales-afghan-killings/index.html?hpt=hp_t2) > > I’m confused how this guy escaped execution, and I’m an active duty officer. I don’t understand how he was able to walk through a village and slaughter civilians like he did and still achieve a plea deal like he did. If this doesn’t qualify someone for the death penalty what does? This was a war crime plain and simple. > > I don’t see how we can possibly sentence Nadal Hassan to death for killing 13 at Ft. Hood. > > Very confusing message, even for those of us in uniform. Well, the news today it seems that it is possible to sentence Hasan to death. IMHO, very confusing for the entire world - not just those of us who have worn a uniform. ---
**Author:** ![Wendell\_Wagner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2013, 9:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-robert-bales-can-escape-the-death-penalty-for-killing-16-civilians-why-do-we-have-it-at-all/667015/24 "2013-08-29T09:05:04Z")
You’re expecting to find consistency in something in which there has never been consistency. There is no consistency in which murders get the death penalty in the U.S. if the only things you look at are just the non-socio-cultural-economic facts of the murder - i.e., how many people were killed, how the murders were done, etc. The circumstances which most affect who gets the death penalty are not these things but other issues - which of the 53 jurisdictions (the fifty states, the District of Columbia, the federal civilian court system, the federal military system) the murder is tried in, what the social status of the victims was, what the social status of the murder was, what the political agenda of the local prosecutors is, and perhaps a few other issues. Even within states that use the death penalty, it’s applied more often in some counties than in other counties. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2013, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-robert-bales-can-escape-the-death-penalty-for-killing-16-civilians-why-do-we-have-it-at-all/667015/25 "2013-08-29T14:01:12Z")
> [@astorian](#): > > So, you should have NO trouble at all naming me half a dozen black men executed by the US military in the last few years. > > Right? The OP didn’t ask why we have the death penalty _in the military_. ---
**Author:** ![Bill\_Door](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/50afbb/32.png) [@Bill\_Door](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bill_Door)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2013, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-robert-bales-can-escape-the-death-penalty-for-killing-16-civilians-why-do-we-have-it-at-all/667015/26 "2013-08-29T16:06:49Z")
> [@Simplicio](#): > > (snip)Offering the plea deal only really makes sense if the Prosecution thought there was a chance he might be found not guilty of the murder charges and gotten a less then life-in-prison sentence. If I might be a little cynical here, or if the prosecution thought there were elements of his defense that might result in further damage to the mission. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2013, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-robert-bales-can-escape-the-death-penalty-for-killing-16-civilians-why-do-we-have-it-at-all/667015/27 "2013-08-29T18:07:35Z")
> [@Cubsfan](#): > > [http://www.cnn.com/2013/08/23/justice/robert-bales-afghan-killings/index.html?hpt=hp\_t2](http://www.cnn.com/2013/08/23/justice/robert-bales-afghan-killings/index.html?hpt=hp_t2) > > I’m confused how this guy escaped execution, and I’m an active duty officer. I don’t understand how he was able to walk through a village and slaughter civilians like he did and still achieve a plea deal like he did. If this doesn’t qualify someone for the death penalty what does? This was a war crime plain and simple. > > I don’t see how we can possibly sentence Nadal Hassan to death for killing 13 at Ft. Hood. > > Very confusing message, even for those of us in uniform. It depends on how the laws were written. Who has jurisdiction? Where (U.S., foreign country, U.S. military area of control), did it occur? When it happened (combat zone vs combat zone under hostile fire)? The Law allows for plea deals. Plea deals can take execution off the table. Changing the law would prevent specific deals but the current laws weren’t written specifically for Robert Bales or Nadal Hassan. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2013, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-robert-bales-can-escape-the-death-penalty-for-killing-16-civilians-why-do-we-have-it-at-all/667015/28 "2013-08-31T00:06:35Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > So then based on your logic, since Charles Manson wasn’t executed the State of California can’t execute anyone unless they prove that whatever crimes a person is convicted of, they have to be worse than what Manson did?:dubious: Actually, Manson WAS originally given the death penalty. Just a little factoid. ---
**Author:** ![Wendell\_Wagner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2013, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-robert-bales-can-escape-the-death-penalty-for-killing-16-civilians-why-do-we-have-it-at-all/667015/29 "2013-08-31T14:07:12Z")
In post #24, I said that the use of the death penalty varies a great deal even within a single state. In each county the local district attorney decides which murders to prosecute as death penalty cases. Here’s a set of maps showing how disparate the use of the death penalty is even on the county level: > **[Executions by County](https://deathpenaltyinfo.org/executions/executions-overview/executions-by-county)** > > The Death Penalty Information Center is a non-profit organization serving the media and the public with analysis and information about capital punishment. Founded in 1990, the Center promotes informed discussion of the death penalty by preparing... Once again, the answer to the OP is that trying to figure out who will get the death penalty (in the U.S.) according to things like the number of people killed or the way that they were killed is not looking at the issues that mostly matter. What mostly determines who gets the death penalty are things like the jurisdiction (the state, the D.C., the federal civilian, or the federal military) that the murder is prosecuted in, the exact location that the trial is held in, the socio-cultural-economic-racial status of the victims and the murderer, the political agenda of the local district attorney, etc. Trying to treat the U.S. as a uniform mass in which attitudes to things like the death penalty are the same everywhere is mistaken. We don’t work that way. (You can discuss among yourselves whether we should work that way. I pass on that discussion.) ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2013, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-robert-bales-can-escape-the-death-penalty-for-killing-16-civilians-why-do-we-have-it-at-all/667015/30 "2013-08-31T14:52:18Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > Actually, Manson WAS originally given the death penalty. Just a little factoid. And Manson never murdered anyone. just sayin’ ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2013, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-robert-bales-can-escape-the-death-penalty-for-killing-16-civilians-why-do-we-have-it-at-all/667015/31 "2013-08-31T15:35:18Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > And Manson never murdered anyone. just sayin’ Nor did Adolph Hitler. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![astorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2013, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-robert-bales-can-escape-the-death-penalty-for-killing-16-civilians-why-do-we-have-it-at-all/667015/32 "2013-08-31T21:45:54Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > The OP didn’t ask why we have the death penalty _in the military_. But the only defendants he mentioned WERE tried by the military. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-robert-bales-can-escape-the-death-penalty-for-killing-16-civilians-why-do-we-have-it-at-all/667015.md?page=1)