# If someone beheaded a soldier of your country and waited 20 minutes surrounded by a crowd... **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [May 25, 2013, 4:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-someone-beheaded-a-soldier-of-your-country-and-waited-20-minutes-surrounded-by-a-crowd/659294 "2013-05-25T04:55:20Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2013, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-someone-beheaded-a-soldier-of-your-country-and-waited-20-minutes-surrounded-by-a-crowd/659294/41 "2013-05-25T15:42:10Z")
> [@Disposable Hero](#): > > Why? Plenty of men have been in the position where they’ve had to comfort the dying or ‘talk someone down’, just because a person is male doesn’t mean they think of a physical confrontation first or as the best means to resolve a situation. I know my society and the culture that forms it. Likelihood heavily in favor of the women being the ones. ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2013, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-someone-beheaded-a-soldier-of-your-country-and-waited-20-minutes-surrounded-by-a-crowd/659294/42 "2013-05-25T15:49:58Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Guns no, but personal self defense devices are very helpful against attackers who don’t have guns. Since Britain has eliminated guns from the streets, allowing women to carry nonlethal self-defense devices to protect against physical attacks should be common sense. > > And yes, if knife wielding maniacs attacked a woman with pepper spray and she even sprayed it in their general direction, they’d want to be just about anywhere but where they were. In a student-prank-gone-wrong, the nicest, sweetest male teacher at my school got tasered by the strongest taser you can legally buy, the sort of thing a female jogger might carry here in the U.S. This guy–the sweetest, most non-aggressive person I know–said that after the initial “bweaaaa” kind of feeling, all that was left was this overwhelming, hormone-fueled ANGER. It was all he could do not to hit the (perfectly sweet, and obviously very stupid) student who did it. I tend to think that shocking or pepper spraying a violent, enraged attacker MIGHT give you a few minutes head start, but you damn well better use it, because the sort of person who attacks an apparently unarmed woman is the type of person that will become that much more violent and irrational when hit with shocking, unexpected pain. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2013, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-someone-beheaded-a-soldier-of-your-country-and-waited-20-minutes-surrounded-by-a-crowd/659294/43 "2013-05-25T15:52:39Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Well, that’s one difference here, since that’s the subject of this thread. We don’t exactly consider making criminals feel unthreatened to be a particularly high priority. As a matter of fact, our goal is to make criminals feel as threatened as possible. > > [United Kingdom vs United States Crime Stats Compared](http://www.nationmaster.com/compare/United-Kingdom/United-States/Crime) > > Must be proud to have a situation where there are a lot more crime victims than the supposedly ultraviolent US. > > Hmmm, if only there were some way people could protect themselves from crime… From your stats: > [@](#): > > Murders with firearms UK 14 USA 9,369 'Nuff said about your gun fetish. The women kept the murderers relatively calm and thereby prevented further violence. You seem to have a problem with that. Pity. ---
**Author:** ![Atomic\_Alex](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atomic_alex/32/175_2.png) [@Atomic\_Alex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atomic_Alex)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2013, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-someone-beheaded-a-soldier-of-your-country-and-waited-20-minutes-surrounded-by-a-crowd/659294/44 "2013-05-25T15:56:58Z")
> [@JRDelirious](#): > > I know my society and the culture that forms it. Likelihood heavily in favor of the women being the ones. I see, I know little of Puerto Rico so I can’t comment, but that does seem rather unfortunate _(I’ve been mulling over what word to use there but can’t seem to find the correct one that doesn’t sound patronising)_ On the topic of the thread, it really was a rather surreal event and I’ve heard a few eyewitnesses say that at least partially the reason people didn’t react the way we might expect them to is that they thought it had been a simple car accident and the two men were trying to _help_ the victim. But television and the movies may give a false impression of how people may _actually_ react in an extreme situation, not so much arm flailing panic as a somewhat confused ‘what the hell just happened’. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2013, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-someone-beheaded-a-soldier-of-your-country-and-waited-20-minutes-surrounded-by-a-crowd/659294/45 "2013-05-25T16:40:49Z")
> [@nicole1912](#): > > I would be interested if anyone had any actual stats on this - maybe the Home Office produces something? Because my impression is that the majority of violent crime [ETA: in the UK] occurs as a result of inner-city gang activity (where both “sides” are much more likely to be armed than the general population). So being unarmed doesn’t make you more likely to be the victim of violent crime. > > If that’s right, I’m not convinced at all that introducing more weapons (lethal or less-lethal) on to the streets of Britain would make anything better. True or false: Crime in Britain is up at the same time crime in the US has been going down. If most violent crime was caused by people feeling threatened, then women would almost never be victims of crime. The brave woman who tried to calm the attacker didn’t live because of her actions, she lived because the killer wasn’t interested in killing her. This guy wasn’t an angry and upset tiger escaped from his cage, it was an intelligent human being who committed a premeditated act. He just simply didn’t have plans to kill anyone else that day. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2013, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-someone-beheaded-a-soldier-of-your-country-and-waited-20-minutes-surrounded-by-a-crowd/659294/46 "2013-05-25T17:00:17Z")
The USA has by far the [highest incarceration rate](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_incarceration_rate)of any country in the world. The USA’s incarceration rate is over 465% higher than the UK’s incarceration rate, but despite this, the [murder rate](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate)in the USA is 400% higher than in the UK. When comparing the UK with the USA, Americans are neither as free nor as safe. But of course the facts make little difference when conversing with people who have entrenched beliefs and limited interest in looking outside their own walls. ---
**Author:** ![RobDog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f07891/32.png) [@RobDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RobDog)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2013, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-someone-beheaded-a-soldier-of-your-country-and-waited-20-minutes-surrounded-by-a-crowd/659294/47 "2013-05-25T17:00:58Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Why? What’s the rationale behind leaving people defenseless? I’m not providing you with a rationale, I’m simply telling you the way it is. The vast majority of the UK public are happy with our gun laws. A 2005 Gallup poll showed only 5% in favour of less strict gun control than existed at the time (16% were happy with the status quo, 79% were in favour of stricter gun control). I don’t doubt that similar results would be obtained today. As a nation, we simply don’t seem to like guns. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2013, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-someone-beheaded-a-soldier-of-your-country-and-waited-20-minutes-surrounded-by-a-crowd/659294/48 "2013-05-25T17:02:40Z")
> [@Disposable Hero](#): > > But television and the movies may give a false impression of how people may _actually_ react in an extreme situation, not so much arm flailing panic as a somewhat confused ‘what the hell just happened’. Bingo. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2013, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-someone-beheaded-a-soldier-of-your-country-and-waited-20-minutes-surrounded-by-a-crowd/659294/49 "2013-05-25T17:04:01Z")
> [@RobDog](#): > > As a nation, we simply don’t seem to like guns. I wouldn’t be surprised if there were some correlation to not seeming to like getting shot. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2013, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-someone-beheaded-a-soldier-of-your-country-and-waited-20-minutes-surrounded-by-a-crowd/659294/50 "2013-05-25T17:05:16Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > He just simply didn’t have plans to kill anyone else that day. In which case there would be no reason to shoot him, would there. ---
**Author:** ![gracer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8e7dd6/32.png) [@gracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gracer)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2013, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-someone-beheaded-a-soldier-of-your-country-and-waited-20-minutes-surrounded-by-a-crowd/659294/51 "2013-05-25T17:06:10Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > True or false: Crime in Britain is up at the same time crime in the US has been going down. > > If most violent crime was caused by people feeling threatened, then women would almost never be victims of crime. I think crime in Britain is going down, last I heard. I don’t understand your second statement. > [@](#): > > The brave woman who tried to calm the attacker didn’t live because of her actions, she lived because the killer wasn’t interested in killing her. This guy wasn’t an angry and upset tiger escaped from his cage, it was an intelligent human being who committed a premeditated act. He just simply didn’t have plans to kill anyone else that day. Had he been planning in a society where he could expect people to be armed he would likely have planned differently. I know it’s only speculation, but I know _I would_ certainly plan differently for the two scenarios. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2013, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-someone-beheaded-a-soldier-of-your-country-and-waited-20-minutes-surrounded-by-a-crowd/659294/52 "2013-05-25T17:08:02Z")
> [@Muffin](#): > > The USA has by far the [highest incarceration rate](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_incarceration_rate)of any country in the world. The USA’s incarceration rate is over 465% higher than the UK’s incarceration rate, but despite this, the [murder rate](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate)in the USA is 400% higher than in the UK. When comparing the UK with the USA, Americans are neither as free nor as safe. But of course the facts make little difference when conversing with people who have entrenched beliefs and limited interest in looking outside their own walls. Yet we also have lower rates of assault and rape, and home invasions are very rare here, mainly because you’d have to be out of your mind and suicidal to barge into someone’s house to victimize them. The UK has traded a lower murder rate for huge increases in crime across the board. The result: British citizens report feeling less safe than Americans and have less confidence in the police. That’s according to my link earlier, BTW. ---
**Author:** ![RobDog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f07891/32.png) [@RobDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RobDog)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2013, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-someone-beheaded-a-soldier-of-your-country-and-waited-20-minutes-surrounded-by-a-crowd/659294/53 "2013-05-25T17:09:28Z")
> [@Muffin](#): > > I wouldn’t be surprised if there were some correlation to not seeming to like getting shot. It is jolly inconvenient. ---
**Author:** ![Leo\_Bloom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leo_bloom/32/10377_2.png) [@Leo\_Bloom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leo_Bloom)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2013, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-someone-beheaded-a-soldier-of-your-country-and-waited-20-minutes-surrounded-by-a-crowd/659294/54 "2013-05-25T17:13:19Z")
OP request: Please stick to the OP. Along the lines, that is, on the same topic but with your own conclusions, not necessarily a reply to the guy (remember, think about some social section–remember, they differ-- of _your_ _community_’sor _countrymen’s_ possible response, not the individual victim) as this column: [MAY 24, 2013 6:00 PM To the Slaughter British lions come up lambs in Woolwich. By Mark Steyn](http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/349308/slaughter) ---
**Author:** ![DJ\_Motorbike](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/90ced4/32.png) [@DJ\_Motorbike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DJ_Motorbike)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2013, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-someone-beheaded-a-soldier-of-your-country-and-waited-20-minutes-surrounded-by-a-crowd/659294/55 "2013-05-25T17:14:05Z")
> [@Muffin](#): > > In which case there would be no reason to shoot him, would there. He’s dripping with blood and waving around the knife he just used to cut someone’s head off. I can’t see a reason to not shoot him. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2013, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-someone-beheaded-a-soldier-of-your-country-and-waited-20-minutes-surrounded-by-a-crowd/659294/56 "2013-05-25T17:15:24Z")
There are worse things than death, like never feeling safe in your own home, or even in your own body. As my wife often says, people die. But when they get raped, or their domicile is invaded and they are terrorized within, they also die. Their lives are never the same. And you know what makes it the worst? Helplessness. People can handle dying if they have a fighting chance. What people can’t handle is being victims, and British law requires people to be victims waiting for the authorities to save them(which doesn’t usually happen). ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2013, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-someone-beheaded-a-soldier-of-your-country-and-waited-20-minutes-surrounded-by-a-crowd/659294/57 "2013-05-25T17:31:31Z")
Seems like he is trying to foment hatred against Islam. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2013, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-someone-beheaded-a-soldier-of-your-country-and-waited-20-minutes-surrounded-by-a-crowd/659294/58 "2013-05-25T17:45:25Z")
> [@](#): > > Quoth **adaher** : > > Well, that’s one difference here, since that’s the subject of this thread. We don’t exactly consider making criminals feel unthreatened to be a particularly high priority. As a matter of fact, our goal is to make criminals feel as threatened as possible. Yeah, and how’s that working out for you? > [@](#): > > I can see the wisdom if you have no means of self-defense and the criminal is unlikely to attack you otherwise. > > Of course, that does you no good in 95% of real life situations. you are the prey, and you most definitely don’t want to seem nonthreatening to a predator. Actually, in well over 95% of real-life situations, there’s no attack, no need for self-defense, and no criminal at all. As for “making the people feel helpless”, I rather get the impression that the women involved in this incident didn’t feel helpless at all. Despite not having any weapons, they still managed to stay in control of the situation. That actually sounds empowering, to me: While Americans are made to feel like they’re helpless without weapons, Brits are made to feel competent in themselves. ---
**Author:** ![HoneyBadgerDC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/honeybadgerdc/32/1033_2.png) [@HoneyBadgerDC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HoneyBadgerDC)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2013, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-someone-beheaded-a-soldier-of-your-country-and-waited-20-minutes-surrounded-by-a-crowd/659294/59 "2013-05-25T17:59:31Z")
If this would have happened in America the woman would have been knocked to the ground and her teeth kicked in if she was very lucky that day. ---
**Author:** ![Kimmy\_Gibbler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimmy_Gibbler)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2013, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-someone-beheaded-a-soldier-of-your-country-and-waited-20-minutes-surrounded-by-a-crowd/659294/60 "2013-05-25T18:01:40Z")
> [@Leo\_Bloom](#): > > OP request: Please stick to the OP. > > Along the lines, that is, on the same topic but with your own conclusions, not necessarily a reply to the guy (remember, think about some social section–remember, they differ-- of _your_ _community_’sor _countrymen’s_ possible response, not the individual victim) as this column: > > [MAY 24, 2013 6:00 PM > To the Slaughter > British lions come up lambs in Woolwich. > By Mark Steyn](http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/349308/slaughter) I don’t know. Why do you think, as it was so aptly characterized above, the fantasies of would-be vigilantes and internet tough guys are better evidence as to what would happen than what _actually_ did happen when this set of facts _actually_ came to pass? Internet tough guys love to wax on about all the things they would have done differently. Isn’t it fascinating, therefore, that such behavior is almost never encountered in real life when these scenarios (Woolwich, Newtown, etc., etc.) do occur, as they have on multiple occasions. What a marvelous coincidence that these internet tough guys, who are legion on the internet, never seem to be in attendance when these outrages are taking place! Or perhaps they’re just full of shit. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-someone-beheaded-a-soldier-of-your-country-and-waited-20-minutes-surrounded-by-a-crowd/659294.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-someone-beheaded-a-soldier-of-your-country-and-waited-20-minutes-surrounded-by-a-crowd/659294.md?page=4)