# If someone beheaded a soldier of your country and waited 20 minutes surrounded by a crowd... **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [May 25, 2013, 4:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-someone-beheaded-a-soldier-of-your-country-and-waited-20-minutes-surrounded-by-a-crowd/659294 "2013-05-25T04:55:20Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Leo\_Bloom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leo_bloom/32/10377_2.png) [@Leo\_Bloom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leo_Bloom)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2013, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-someone-beheaded-a-soldier-of-your-country-and-waited-20-minutes-surrounded-by-a-crowd/659294/61 "2013-05-25T18:06:15Z")
1. Todd Beamer’s actions and words “Let’s roil” on 9/11 truly have had an impact in America. More than one frightening disruption in an airliner, considered a possible terror attack, has been steamrolled by passengers. In my opinion (since this is IMHO and I’m OP, it’s about time), in _countless_ neighborhoods in NYC, the perpetrators, in the scene after the crime, standing around and distracted, would have been rushed and crushed. Unarmed, or with make-shift weapons found on the street. I believe this to be true any urban area I can think of in the USA. Were IMHO to have more posters from Islamic countries, the answers, for a situation with the ideologies reversed, I hope it also obvious what their truthful response to OP would be. The conversation has dick-all to do with crime statistics and prison populations and dick-all else. At least, it should. Arguing about those things is a distraction just to argue about those things. ---
**Author:** ![Kimmy\_Gibbler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimmy_Gibbler)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2013, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-someone-beheaded-a-soldier-of-your-country-and-waited-20-minutes-surrounded-by-a-crowd/659294/62 "2013-05-25T18:12:41Z")
> [@Leo\_Bloom](#): > > 1. Todd Beamer’s actions and words “Let’s roil” on 9/11 truly have had an impact in America. More than one frightening disruption in an airliner, considered a possible terror attack, has been steamrolled by passengers. > > In my opinion (since this is IMHO and I’m OP, it’s about time), in _countless_ neighborhoods in NYC, the perpetrators, in the scene after the crime, standing around and distracted, would have been rushed and crushed. Unarmed, or with make-shift weapons found on the street. > > I believe this to be true any urban area I can think of in the USA. > > Were IMHO to have more posters from Islamic countries, the answers, for a situation with the ideologies reversed, I hope it also obvious what their truthful response to OP would be. > > The conversation has dick-all to do with crime statistics and prison populations and dick-all else. At least, it should. Arguing about those things is a distraction just to argue about those things. Sounds like you’re less interested in soliciting opinions, and more interested in getting help on drafting the screenplay for your latest bad-ass action flick. ---
**Author:** ![user\_hostile](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/user_hostile/32/474_2.png) [@user\_hostile](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/user_hostile)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2013, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-someone-beheaded-a-soldier-of-your-country-and-waited-20-minutes-surrounded-by-a-crowd/659294/63 "2013-05-25T18:31:49Z")
> [@Leo\_Bloom](#): > > 1. Todd Beamer’s actions and words “_ **Let’s roil** _” on 9/11 truly have had an impact in America. > [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](#): > > Sounds like you’re less interested in soliciting opinions, and more interested in getting help on drafting the screenplay for your latest bad-ass action flick. \ A dainty _18th Century_ bad-ass action flick. ---
**Author:** ![Leo\_Bloom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leo_bloom/32/10377_2.png) [@Leo\_Bloom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leo_Bloom)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2013, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-someone-beheaded-a-soldier-of-your-country-and-waited-20-minutes-surrounded-by-a-crowd/659294/64 "2013-05-25T18:38:25Z")
> [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](#): > > I don’t know. Why do you think, as it was so aptly characterized above, the fantasies of would-be vigilantes and internet tough guys are better evidence as to what would happen than what _actually_ did happen when this set of facts _actually_ came to pass? > > Internet tough guys love to wax on about all the things they would have done differently. Isn’t it fascinating, therefore, that such behavior is almost never encountered in real life when these scenarios (Woolwich, Newtown, etc., etc.) do occur, as they have on multiple occasions. What a marvelous coincidence that these internet tough guys, who are legion on the internet, never seem to be in attendance when these outrages are taking place! > > Or perhaps they’re just full of shit. [hijack] Or perhaps comparing Newton to Woolwich as analogous situations for the purposes of OP is a supreme example of intellectually vapidity rarely seen even for SD. Let me count the ways that the two situations differ…::thinks hard, gives up:: The gist and conclusion of your post reveals an intellectual and rhetorical kinship with many who consider themselves incisive contributors to leftist politics, who with their assumed dagger-like recognition of hypocrisy, condemn people without a son in the Army, but who support some national military action, as chicken hawks. Internet tough guy here to Internet tough guy. [/hijack] ---
**Author:** ![Leo\_Bloom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leo_bloom/32/10377_2.png) [@Leo\_Bloom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leo_Bloom)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2013, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-someone-beheaded-a-soldier-of-your-country-and-waited-20-minutes-surrounded-by-a-crowd/659294/65 "2013-05-25T18:40:29Z")
> [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](#): > > Sounds like you’re less interested in soliciting opinions, and more interested in getting help on drafting the screenplay for your latest bad-ass action flick. IMHO, jack. I am thinking of OP. ---
**Author:** ![Kimmy\_Gibbler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimmy_Gibbler)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2013, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-someone-beheaded-a-soldier-of-your-country-and-waited-20-minutes-surrounded-by-a-crowd/659294/66 "2013-05-25T18:45:28Z")
> [@Leo\_Bloom](#): > > [hijack] > Or perhaps comparing Newton to Woolwich as analogous situations for the purposes of OP is a supreme example of intellectually vapidity rarely seen even for SD. Let me count the ways that the two situations differ…::thinks hard, gives up:: > > The gist and conclusion of your post reveals an intellectual and rhetorical kinship with many who consider themselves incisive contributors to leftist politics, who with their assumed dagger-like recognition of hypocrisy, condemn people without a son in the Army, but who support some national military action, as chicken hawks. > > Internet tough guy here to Internet tough guy. > [/hijack] I’ll let you have this as the last word, as I have no compunction that it fails to speak for itself. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2013, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-someone-beheaded-a-soldier-of-your-country-and-waited-20-minutes-surrounded-by-a-crowd/659294/67 "2013-05-25T19:02:24Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > There are worse things than death, like never feeling safe in your own home, or even in your own body. As my wife often says, people die. But when they get raped, or their domicile is invaded and they are terrorized within, they also die. Their lives are never the same. > > And you know what makes it the worst? Helplessness. People can handle dying if they have a fighting chance. What people can’t handle is being victims, and British law requires people to be victims waiting for the authorities to save them(which doesn’t usually happen). Nothing you’ve said about Britain in this whole thread makes any sense to me, a Brit. ---
**Author:** ![RobDog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f07891/32.png) [@RobDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RobDog)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2013, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-someone-beheaded-a-soldier-of-your-country-and-waited-20-minutes-surrounded-by-a-crowd/659294/68 "2013-05-25T19:24:14Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Yet we also have lower rates of assault and rape, and home invasions are very rare here, mainly because you’d have to be out of your mind and suicidal to barge into someone’s house to victimize them. > > The UK has traded a lower murder rate for huge increases in crime across the board. The result: British citizens report feeling less safe than Americans and have less confidence in the police. That’s according to my link earlier, BTW. And yet we still don’t want guns. Fascinating isn’t it? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2013, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-someone-beheaded-a-soldier-of-your-country-and-waited-20-minutes-surrounded-by-a-crowd/659294/69 "2013-05-25T19:27:04Z")
I feel bad saying this, but I think there would be a ton of photobombing. ---
**Author:** ![Leo\_Bloom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leo_bloom/32/10377_2.png) [@Leo\_Bloom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leo_Bloom)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2013, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-someone-beheaded-a-soldier-of-your-country-and-waited-20-minutes-surrounded-by-a-crowd/659294/70 "2013-05-25T19:29:21Z")
> [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](#): > > I’ll let you have this as the last word, as I have no compunction that it fails to speak for itself. Well, thanks, but I feel I must correct your assumption. _This_ is my last word to our mini-dialogue: I’m glad you have no compunctions. Keep up the good work in your ethical decisions as you go about learning English. Do not let that get in the way though of using words in your arguments, as you no doubt will carry on. It’s a free country. Don’t forget to be snarky about how dumb you think Sarah Palin and George Bush are. I await your non-reply with anticipation. ---
**Author:** ![PaulParkhead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/7ea924/32.png) [@PaulParkhead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PaulParkhead)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2013, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-someone-beheaded-a-soldier-of-your-country-and-waited-20-minutes-surrounded-by-a-crowd/659294/71 "2013-05-25T19:31:16Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > Nothing you’ve said about Britain in this whole thread makes any sense to me, a Brit. Agreed, but it’s a common enough narrative heard in political discourse amongst certain Americans who know nothing about the UK. It’s the idea that we are all huddling defenceless in our homes while the tide of crime crashes against the walls, cursing the government who took away our guns. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2013, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-someone-beheaded-a-soldier-of-your-country-and-waited-20-minutes-surrounded-by-a-crowd/659294/72 "2013-05-25T19:57:41Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Guns no, but personal self defense devices are very helpful against attackers who don’t have guns. Since Britain has eliminated guns from the streets, allowing women to carry nonlethal self-defense devices to protect against physical attacks should be common sense. . Pepper sprays aren’t used solely for self-defense. They’re used to assault too. I’ve been assaulted twice. Once by a guy with a Pepper spray, the other by guys with knives. It’s much more convenient to assault/steal stuff from someone if you spread him first with a generous dose of pepper spray. ---
**Author:** ![Baron\_Greenback](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baron_greenback/32/48_2.png) [@Baron\_Greenback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baron_Greenback)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2013, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-someone-beheaded-a-soldier-of-your-country-and-waited-20-minutes-surrounded-by-a-crowd/659294/73 "2013-05-25T20:18:13Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > And if they’d decided to kill the women, what would they have done about that? They didn’t kill more people because they were stopped, but because they didn’t feel like it. Imagine if they had laser-eyes. Imagine that. Imagine. ---
**Author:** ![Fiendish\_Astronaut](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fiendish_astronaut/32/3295_2.png) [@Fiendish\_Astronaut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiendish_Astronaut)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2013, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-someone-beheaded-a-soldier-of-your-country-and-waited-20-minutes-surrounded-by-a-crowd/659294/74 "2013-05-25T20:27:04Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > True or false: Crime in Britain is up at the same time crime in the US has been going down. Not sure about crime as a whole but violent crime in the UK has dipped markedly: [UK Peace Index highlights rate of fall in violent crime - BBC News](http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-22275280) Not that it makes any difference to the argument. I’m very happy guns aren’t legal here. It would make me feel a lot less safe. I think you’re living in the clouds if you think legalising guns would make Britain a safer place. And no-one want them - there is zero appetite for having guns in Britain. even the police, when surveyed, said they preferred not to carry them. I’d argue that the fact we don’t have guns means the events might have played out very differently than they would have done in the US. I’ve no doubt the criminals could have still killed the soldier. But what would have happened afterwards? It is of course impossible to know. The biggest likelihood is that the result would have been no different. But there is also a small chance that citizens with guns would have turned created more bodies. ---
**Author:** ![Baron\_Greenback](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baron_greenback/32/48_2.png) [@Baron\_Greenback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baron_Greenback)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2013, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-someone-beheaded-a-soldier-of-your-country-and-waited-20-minutes-surrounded-by-a-crowd/659294/75 "2013-05-25T20:30:07Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > True or false: Crime in Britain is up at the same time crime in the US has been going down. False. There, that was easy. Have a look at the trend on page 15: > **[hosb1011.pdf](https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/116417/hosb1011.pdf)** > > 1750.33 KB It is a PDF, so beware. Would you like to know what is reported as a violent crime in the two completely different jurisdictions with completely different reporting standards? Here’s a hint: no. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2013, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-someone-beheaded-a-soldier-of-your-country-and-waited-20-minutes-surrounded-by-a-crowd/659294/76 "2013-05-25T21:02:08Z")
Well…I’ll probably have soon an answer to the OP. A copycat tried to kill a soldier this afternoon in Paris. He was wounded but isn’t in danger. The culprit fled. So, I guess there will soon be videos and I’ll be able to tell how people over here react. By, the way, this was one of the soldiers who roam around sensitive spots carrying weapons when terrorism alert level is high. Which show how pointless those patrols are. Being personally attacked is about the only scenario I can think of where they could do something, and they didn’t/couldn’t. If things haven’t changed since the 90s, their weapons aren’t loaded, and they need to tear off a sewed pocket to access the ammunitions. By which time an attacker would be long away or in the middle of a crowd. Previously, there were two soldiers+one gendarme. The gendarme being at the same time a military NCO and a police officer, theoretically he could do something in some circumstances (in this case, he would have had an actually loaded weapon, at least). But for a year or so, I noticed they there aren’t gendarmes any more. So, it’s only a pair of soldiers who can’t do anything and don’t have the right to do anything anyway even in a suspicious situation :rolleyes: . It was already obvious that it was only for show and to reassure people (or maybe there was a slight expectation of deterrence), but now it just has become ridiculous. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2013, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-someone-beheaded-a-soldier-of-your-country-and-waited-20-minutes-surrounded-by-a-crowd/659294/77 "2013-05-25T21:13:18Z")
> [@PaulParkhead](#): > > Agreed, but it’s a common enough narrative heard in political discourse amongst certain Americans who know nothing about the UK. It’s the idea that we are all huddling defenceless in our homes while the tide of crime crashes against the walls, cursing the government who took away our guns. Yes, I’ve seen it before, exactly as you describe. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2013, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-someone-beheaded-a-soldier-of-your-country-and-waited-20-minutes-surrounded-by-a-crowd/659294/78 "2013-05-25T21:20:32Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > Pepper sprays aren’t used solely for self-defense. They’re used to assault too. I’ve been assaulted twice. Once by a guy with a Pepper spray, the other by guys with knives. Damn cannibals with seasoning and cutlery. ---
**Author:** ![Atomic\_Alex](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atomic_alex/32/175_2.png) [@Atomic\_Alex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atomic_Alex)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2013, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-someone-beheaded-a-soldier-of-your-country-and-waited-20-minutes-surrounded-by-a-crowd/659294/79 "2013-05-25T23:06:05Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > Well…I’ll probably have soon an answer to the OP. A copycat tried to kill a soldier this afternoon in Paris. He was wounded but isn’t in danger. The culprit fled. So, I guess there will soon be videos and I’ll be able to tell how people over here react. > By, the way, this was one of the soldiers who roam around sensitive spots carrying weapons when terrorism alert level is high. Which show how pointless those patrols are. Being personally attacked is about the only scenario I can think of where they could do something, and they didn’t/couldn’t. If things haven’t changed since the 90s, their weapons aren’t loaded, and they need to tear off a sewed pocket to access the ammunitions. By which time an attacker would be long away or in the middle of a crowd. > > Previously, there were two soldiers+one gendarme. The gendarme being at the same time a military NCO and a police officer, theoretically he could do something in some circumstances (in this case, he would have had an actually loaded weapon, at least). But for a year or so, I noticed they there aren’t gendarmes any more. So, it’s only a pair of soldiers who can’t do anything and don’t have the right to do anything anyway even in a suspicious situation :rolleyes: . It was already obvious that it was only for show and to reassure people (or maybe there was a slight expectation of deterrence), but now it just has become ridiculous. The fact that the soldiers weapons aren’t loaded and its difficult to even access the ammunition _is_ strange, but what could the police officer do that a soldier or even motivated civilian not do? _(if I understand the scenario correctly)_ Here at least everyone is legally able to defend themselves and others from a threat, as long as the response is proportinate and necessary and also effect an arrest for a suspected offence. The only real difference is that a soldier/civilian is expected to keep the person at the place of arrest until a warranted police officer can attend the scene and take them into their custody. And _why_ would it even be common knowledge that the soldiers are effectively unarmed? _(for any sort of spontaneous attack of short duration anyway)_ Surely that entirely defeats the purpose and actually makes them a target. ---
**Author:** ![Leo\_Bloom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leo_bloom/32/10377_2.png) [@Leo\_Bloom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leo_Bloom)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2013, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-someone-beheaded-a-soldier-of-your-country-and-waited-20-minutes-surrounded-by-a-crowd/659294/80 "2013-05-26T00:27:24Z")
> [@Muffin](#): > > Damn cannibals with seasoning and cutlery. In my teens I was 'salted, but not peppered, but–to top the menu–was battered. That’s what he was charged with, at any rate. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-someone-beheaded-a-soldier-of-your-country-and-waited-20-minutes-surrounded-by-a-crowd/659294.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-someone-beheaded-a-soldier-of-your-country-and-waited-20-minutes-surrounded-by-a-crowd/659294.md?page=5)