# "If someone disliked \_\_\_\_\_\_ (or thought it was crappy/boring/etc) then their opinion is wrong" **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [March 3, 2016, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-someone-disliked-______-or-thought-it-was-crappy-boring-etc-then-their-opinion-is-wrong/747866 "2016-03-03T21:08:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Laggard](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/9de053/32.png) [@Laggard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Laggard)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2016, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-someone-disliked-______-or-thought-it-was-crappy-boring-etc-then-their-opinion-is-wrong/747866/61 "2016-03-06T20:43:21Z")
Yacht rock. That’s perfect! ---
**Author:** ![WordMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e8c25b/32.png) [@WordMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WordMan)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2016, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-someone-disliked-______-or-thought-it-was-crappy-boring-etc-then-their-opinion-is-wrong/747866/62 "2016-03-06T21:14:13Z")
> [@scabpicker](#): > > Meh, if you can’t imagine Adele covering a Steely Dan song, you lack imagination. That’s not my problem. They’re both smooth pop with a jazz influence. To someone who’s not interested in the genre, they’re both interchangeably bad music. > > And Dan is a yardstck of what, exactly? Whether someone is really a hardcore yacht rock fan? I like bits of their music, but that’s almost always down to the performance of a particular studio musician that they hired, and weren’t necessarily going to hire again (e.g., Elliott Randall). Other than that, they don’t offer anything to me. **scabpicker** , you and I normally do okay. Obviously, anyone can like and dislike whatever they like. As someone I have enjoyed discussing music with on the SDMB, I have to say it really feels like you haven’t given them a shot. **Laggard** - Yacht Rock is a Thing. It is used to describe bad easy pop, like England Dan and John Ford Coley or Michael McDonald Doobie Brothers. Steely Dan is so, so much better than that. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2016, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-someone-disliked-______-or-thought-it-was-crappy-boring-etc-then-their-opinion-is-wrong/747866/63 "2016-03-06T22:19:07Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > I half-agree with the OP. There are some works that are objectively great works, and to claim otherwise is wrong. However, one can recognize a work as great without liking it, and disliking something, even if it is great, cannot be wrong. I agree with the OP, but I’d restate it as follows. If you dislike certain works without understanding their underlying greatness, then you are wrong. For example: opera. I dislike opera. I don’t understand opera. I trust I am wrong. I suspect I would dislike opera even if I understood it. In that case though, my opinion would not be wrong. ---
**Author:** ![drad\_dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@drad\_dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drad_dog)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2016, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-someone-disliked-______-or-thought-it-was-crappy-boring-etc-then-their-opinion-is-wrong/747866/64 "2016-03-06T22:46:41Z")
> [@scabpicker](#): > > Meh, if you can’t imagine Adele covering a Steely Dan song, you lack imagination. That’s not my problem. They’re both smooth pop with a jazz influence. To someone who’s not interested in the genre, they’re both interchangeably bad music. > > And Dan is a yardstck of what, exactly? Whether someone is really a hardcore yacht rock fan? I like bits of their music, but that’s almost always down to the performance of a particular studio musician that they hired, and weren’t necessarily going to hire again (e.g., Elliott Randall). Other than that, they don’t offer anything to me. What does Adele have to do with jazz? Steely Dan were one of the most inventive **rock** acts of the time, and now of all time. Not known as smooth to people who heard them then, but to those who heard them on homogenized classic hits radio (sound right?) loking backwards through the punk/metal lens. They liked being slick, but that’s kind of a surface condition, that they earned the right to with lots of melodies. (Bernard Purdie said they were the only geniuses he ever worked with) Adele does not fill that slot at all. She’s pop for teenage girls and “grannnies,” at least I hear. There’s no parallels I can see. Steely Dan are not Jazz either. They just know a lot about it and use it. Is Stevie Wonder jazz-pop (1971-75 Stevie)? I think you got caught up in the genrefication and hating that came after the 70s, where music became a signifier of introjected fantasies rather than what it was. (How many genres of metal are there? There’s a new one created every time someone’s makeup smears. **That’s** decadence and lameness.) Just my HO. ---
**Author:** ![scabpicker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/scabpicker/32/8268_2.png) [@scabpicker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scabpicker)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2016, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-someone-disliked-______-or-thought-it-was-crappy-boring-etc-then-their-opinion-is-wrong/747866/65 "2016-03-06T23:16:23Z")
> [@WordMan](#): > > **scabpicker** , you and I normally do okay. Obviously, anyone can like and dislike whatever they like. As someone I have enjoyed discussing music with on the SDMB, I have to say it really feels like you haven’t given them a shot. I have given them many shots over my lifetime. In addition to their being a constant of album rock radio, I had a friend who was convinced that I _should_ like them. Much like the 70’s jazz fusion he liked so much, I’m still of mixed feelings on them. I’ve heard a lot of it, and generally have a good perspective of what I like about them and don’t like about them. One of the things that I don’t like about SD is that they’re generally so mild that they could be played on grocery store muzak. To a person who thinks all things mild enough to be played there are interchangeable, I can see where they would think Adele would fit into that category. On preview: sorry **drad dog** , I know what I speak of. Most grannies don’t have a problem with listening to SD on muzak. As far as the tempo and tone of the music, they’re not too different from the rest of it. I like Stevie Wonder too, but neither are the hard edge of rock music. Both made generally successful radio-friendly pop. I’m not going to get into whether they were actually playing jazz or just using jazz. That’s lunacy. ---
**Author:** ![drad\_dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@drad\_dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drad_dog)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2016, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-someone-disliked-______-or-thought-it-was-crappy-boring-etc-then-their-opinion-is-wrong/747866/66 "2016-03-06T23:52:42Z")
> [@scabpicker](#): > > I have given them many shots over my lifetime. In addition to their being a constant of album rock radio, I had a friend who was convinced that I _should_ like them. Much like the 70’s jazz fusion he liked so much, I’m still of mixed feelings on them. I’ve heard a lot of it, and generally have a good perspective of what I like about them and don’t like about them. > > One of the things that I don’t like about SD is that they’re generally so mild that they could be played on grocery store muzak. To a person who thinks all things mild enough to be played there are interchangeable, I can see where they would think Adele would fit into that category. > > On preview: sorry **drad dog** , I know what I speak of. Most grannies don’t have a problem with listening to SD on muzak. As far as the tempo and tone of the music, they’re not too different from the rest of it. I like Stevie Wonder too, but neither are the hard edge of rock music. Both made generally successful radio-friendly pop. I’m not going to get into whether they were actually playing jazz or just using jazz. That’s lunacy. Everything above sounds like you are preoccupied with genre to the point where the actual songs wouldn’t matter anyway. But Jazz is improvisational music and none of these mentioned artists are that. Slickness does not equal jazz, or at least good jazz. It is a mark of bad jazz actually. When SD was out in the 70s a beer commercial would have Al Hirt playing. It was actually shocking to hear rock in a commercial context. At some point in the late 70s/early 80s George Thorogood, and the Del Fuegos became appropriate for ads. Now Led Zepp and Iggy Pop, and The who are in car ads. So how meaningful could it be to finger an artist for being on ads or muzak. Why would it matter what songs are chosen for Muzak 30 years after the fact? The beatles, the beach boys, etc with more added all the time are. Think David Bowie isn’t on muzak? Don’t you like anything your grannie liked? My point is that these artists are only radio friendly pop to someone who can’t hear the difference, because the whole history must be jammed together into a genre. So basically SD equals Captain and Tennille. That’s ahistorical and a failure of imagination too, especially when hard rock itself has been subdivided into 30 or more different genres. It must get confusing out there building those walls. ---
**Author:** ![TonySinclair](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/49beb7/32.png) [@TonySinclair](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TonySinclair)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2016, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-someone-disliked-______-or-thought-it-was-crappy-boring-etc-then-their-opinion-is-wrong/747866/67 "2016-03-07T00:04:43Z")
> [@Mr\_Shine](#): > > I understand not liking computer games at all, or not liking adventure games; but if that doesn’t apply to you and you didn’t like _Grim Fandango_ there’s something wrong with you. I never heard of it, but I googled it and it sounds good. Which one do you mean, 1998 or 2015? ---
**Author:** ![scabpicker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/scabpicker/32/8268_2.png) [@scabpicker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scabpicker)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2016, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-someone-disliked-______-or-thought-it-was-crappy-boring-etc-then-their-opinion-is-wrong/747866/68 "2016-03-07T00:30:01Z")
> [@drad\_dog](#): > > Why would it matter what songs are chosen for Muzak 30 years after the fact? The beatles, the beach boys, etc with more added all the time are. Think David Bowie isn’t on muzak? Don’t you like anything your grannie liked? They were mellow rock _at best_ when they were contemporary. They were muzak shortly after the band broke up and they went in to the bin of easily licensed mellow rock suitable for muzak in the 80’s, not thirty years after the fact. As to being preoccupied with genre, I think you’re projecting. It doesn’t matter to me where someone lumps them, but they’re often rightfully lumped in with the rest of 70’s mellow rock. That you can’t fathom that people would group them there, or would be indignant about it really kind of boggles my mind. Even if you could argue that they didn’t belong there, it’d just move them to another smaller division of mellow rock, apparently occupied completely by Steely Dan. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2016, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-someone-disliked-______-or-thought-it-was-crappy-boring-etc-then-their-opinion-is-wrong/747866/69 "2016-03-07T00:47:22Z")
Steely Dan commentary is always fascinating. People who like them, like them extravagantly. People who don’t like them can’t find anything about them that’s good. Me, I put the Dan up maybe second overall to the Beatles. Geniuses at words and music and the feelings they evoke. Both are of course rock, and yet are so not purist at being rock, like say the Stones, that people who insist upon rock purism can dismiss them. (Yes, as many people now do the Beatles here on the Dope.) Adele. Does she sing anything but dirges? Good voice, but her songs aren’t terribly interesting. There is no universe in which she and the Dan are in the same category other than “stuff I don’t like”. Like either one or neither, I don’t care. Comparing them? Not even wrong. ---
**Author:** ![scabpicker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/scabpicker/32/8268_2.png) [@scabpicker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scabpicker)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2016, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-someone-disliked-______-or-thought-it-was-crappy-boring-etc-then-their-opinion-is-wrong/747866/70 "2016-03-07T01:05:53Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > Steely Dan commentary is always fascinating. People who like them, like them extravagantly. People who don’t like them can’t find anything about them that’s good. As I said before, it’s not that I don’t like them, I just know what I do and don’t like about them. Hell, I can play a good bit of Elliott Randall’s solo from “Reeling in the Years”. I wouldn’t compare Adele’s and Steely Dan’s musical complexity or range, but they’re both mid-tempo to slow tempo rock, suitable for airplay. For folks who aren’t into that at all, they would be interchangeable. ---
**Author:** ![drad\_dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@drad\_dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drad_dog)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2016, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-someone-disliked-______-or-thought-it-was-crappy-boring-etc-then-their-opinion-is-wrong/747866/71 "2016-03-07T01:12:02Z")
> [@scabpicker](#): > > They were mellow rock _at best_ when they were contemporary. They were muzak shortly after the band broke up and they went in to the bin of easily licensed mellow rock suitable for muzak in the 80’s, not thirty years after the fact. > > As to being preoccupied with genre, I think you’re projecting. It doesn’t matter to me where someone lumps them, but they’re often rightfully lumped in with the rest of 70’s mellow rock. That you can’t fathom that people would group them there, or would be indignant about it really kind of boggles my mind. Even if you could argue that they didn’t belong there, it’d just move them to another smaller division of mellow rock, apparently occupied completely by Steely Dan. If that was “mellow rock”, then most of their peers were even mellower and had been all the way up til then too, with obvious harder rock exceptions, some of which are more (and/or less) memorable than others. And the music was so much better then too. Ever wonder why? Could SD possibly be less interesting to hear than any “Melodic Black Metal” "or “Goth Folk Metal”, or “Pirate Metal” (Yes it exists) band? Hard rock these days is basically Spinal Tap without humor. The Dan were funny as shit, and twisted too. Christ you sound like a radio programming consultant. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2016, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-someone-disliked-______-or-thought-it-was-crappy-boring-etc-then-their-opinion-is-wrong/747866/72 "2016-03-07T01:13:44Z")
Yeah, I must confess to not being a Steely Dan fan. Great musicians, but they just don’t hit me emotionally. Except maybe for “Peg.” I’m not going to try to justify it or explain it–there’s no need to. Their music just doesn’t move me. ---
**Author:** ![Guest-starring\_Id](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guest-starring_id/32/21736_2.png) [@Guest-starring\_Id](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guest-starring_Id)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2016, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-someone-disliked-______-or-thought-it-was-crappy-boring-etc-then-their-opinion-is-wrong/747866/73 "2016-03-07T01:39:21Z")
My favourite film of all time - Mike Leigh’s “Nuts in May” - NOOOOBODY likes, and I could give a flying turtle’s you-know-what about it. Seen it maybe 30(?) times, know every line, meanwhile folks (with the odd freak exception) are scratching their heads, bugging me about what’s this insipid travelogue of a nutty couple all about? I’ll stand it by it, though, like a sentry standing guard at Castle Anthrax, just like I’d also stand by the equally (wildly?) unpopular “Bring Me The Head of Alfredo Garcia”, ranking 2nd. ---
**Author:** ![scabpicker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/scabpicker/32/8268_2.png) [@scabpicker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scabpicker)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2016, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-someone-disliked-______-or-thought-it-was-crappy-boring-etc-then-their-opinion-is-wrong/747866/74 "2016-03-07T01:56:05Z")
> [@drad\_dog](#): > > If that was “mellow rock”, then most of their peers were even mellower and had been all the way up til then too, with obvious harder rock exceptions, some of which are more (and/or less) memorable than others. And the music was so much better then too. Ever wonder why? No, I don’t wonder why the music was better then. It wasn’t, so I don’t. Perspectives like that are so simplistic that they aren’t worth considering. I was alive then, and recognized it for the mellow rock that it was. Even then, there were more raucous offerings from country music. > [@drad\_dog](#): > > Christ you sound like a radio programming consultant. Insults don’t really make your argument any more convincing. ---
**Author:** ![fachverwirrt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/94ad74/32.png) [@fachverwirrt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fachverwirrt)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2016, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-someone-disliked-______-or-thought-it-was-crappy-boring-etc-then-their-opinion-is-wrong/747866/75 "2016-03-07T02:02:02Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > For example: opera. I dislike opera. I don’t understand opera. I trust I am wrong. I suspect I would dislike opera even if I understood it. In that case though, my opinion would not be wrong. Of course you’re wrong. My evidence is that I love opera, and I’m right about everything. ---
**Author:** ![Guest-starring\_Id](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guest-starring_id/32/21736_2.png) [@Guest-starring\_Id](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guest-starring_Id)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2016, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-someone-disliked-______-or-thought-it-was-crappy-boring-etc-then-their-opinion-is-wrong/747866/76 "2016-03-07T03:13:26Z")
> [@scabpicker](#): > > recognized (SD) for the mellow rock that it was. Would you say bands/artists like Bread, Dan Hill, Seals and Crofts, Robert John, Carpenters, America, Eric Carmen and Little River Band fit a much closer definition to 70’s soft rock than SD would? I could name more, but that’s a road I don’t plan going down any further. Sure, SD didn’t have a hard guitar sound, but to dismiss them as soft rock I think misses the mark - there was way too much irony and acerbic wit in the lyrics, as well as rockin, upbeat numbers like “Reelin in the Years”, “Bodhisattva”, “King of the World”, some kick-ass passages in “Aja”'s title track, and you won’t find a more twisted, in-your-face guitar solo than the one in “Peg”. Also way too many jazz underpinnings in a lot of their work to lump them under soft rock, which is anathema to ANY complexity in musical arrangements. ---
**Author:** ![scabpicker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/scabpicker/32/8268_2.png) [@scabpicker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scabpicker)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2016, 4:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-someone-disliked-______-or-thought-it-was-crappy-boring-etc-then-their-opinion-is-wrong/747866/77 "2016-03-07T04:45:00Z")
> [@Eddie The Horrible](#): > > Would you say bands/artists like Bread, Dan Hill, Seals and Crofts, Robert John, Carpenters, America, Eric Carmen and Little River Band fit a much closer definition to 70’s soft rock than SD would? I could name more, but that’s a road I don’t plan going down any further. Yes, and I am sorry that I made you mentally wade through that. > [@Eddie The Horrible](#): > > Sure, SD didn’t have a hard guitar sound, but to dismiss them as soft rock I think misses the mark - there was way too much irony and acerbic wit in the lyrics, as well as rockin, upbeat numbers like “Reelin in the Years”, “Bodhisattva”, “King of the World”, some kick-ass passages in “Aja”'s title track, and you won’t find a more twisted, in-your-face guitar solo than the one in “Peg”. Well, RITY has already been mentioned. The other two are pretty mellow, even if they do pick up the beat a little bit. They’re not even rocking on the level of a Beatles rocker, and this is several years after that band broke up. Even then, the Beatles barely rocked any harder than their predecessors. By 1974, the Rolling Stones and the Who are somewhere near the middle of the road in rock 'n roll, and even SD’s heaviest songs all seem a bit lighter than their median output by then. “Peg”. Ohh, that song has a special place somewhere in my body. I’ve tortured my wife for years by singing the lyrics when it gets caught in my head (even today, as a matter of fact). But the second half of the guitar solo, and a nifty fretless bass part doesn’t hide the fact that the rest of that song is an audio leisure suit. > [@Eddie The Horrible](#): > > Also way too many jazz underpinnings in a lot of their work to lump them under soft rock, which is anathema to ANY complexity in musical arrangements. Ehh, I’m not too sure about that. My father listened to a lot of pretty complex jazz that would get piped out over the EZ-100 style stations. It’s not necessarily conducive to making a mellow rock hit, but it wouldn’t preclude one, either. ---
**Author:** ![Wallaby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/dc4da7/32.png) [@Wallaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wallaby)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2016, 5:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-someone-disliked-______-or-thought-it-was-crappy-boring-etc-then-their-opinion-is-wrong/747866/78 "2016-03-07T05:20:38Z")
The Phantom Tollbooth. The Goodies. Test Cricket. That’s a start. ---
**Author:** ![Guest-starring\_Id](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guest-starring_id/32/21736_2.png) [@Guest-starring\_Id](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guest-starring_Id)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2016, 7:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-someone-disliked-______-or-thought-it-was-crappy-boring-etc-then-their-opinion-is-wrong/747866/79 "2016-03-07T07:17:51Z")
> [@scabpicker](#): > > Well, RITY has already been mentioned. The other two are pretty mellow, even if they do pick up the beat a little bit. Sure, my examples weren’t “Symptom of the Universe”, but neither would I consider them soft rockers, along with the majority of SD’s tunes - they’re just lacking that key saccharine veneer to qualify them for this much-vaunted soft rock grail. > [@scabpicker](#): > > My father listened to a lot of pretty complex jazz that would get piped out over the EZ-100 style stations. Good on the EZ-100 style stations whenever they venture a little out of the box, then - something soft rock is less likely to accommodate. > [@scabpicker](#): > > “Peg”. Hoping you don’t sing just the “cuz when you smile for the camera” but also Mike McDonlald’s dulcet vocal stylings during the chorus. great - earwig thread submission in 3…2…1… ---
**Author:** ![WordMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e8c25b/32.png) [@WordMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WordMan)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2016, 12:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-someone-disliked-______-or-thought-it-was-crappy-boring-etc-then-their-opinion-is-wrong/747866/80 "2016-03-07T12:01:36Z")
Seem like the Steely Dan discussion should have its own thread, if there haven’t already been many here. I feel no need to say “man, the music was better then!” or anything like that. But I don’t find them “easy listening” at all - I love the layers I hear, the arch lyrics that have some edge to them. YMMV, of course 😉 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-someone-disliked-______-or-thought-it-was-crappy-boring-etc-then-their-opinion-is-wrong/747866.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-someone-disliked-______-or-thought-it-was-crappy-boring-etc-then-their-opinion-is-wrong/747866.md?page=5)