If Someone Hating the USA Got a Nuke, Would They Use It?

It all hinges on how widespread the destruction is. Just one city? Ain’t gonna destroy us. It will hurt us terribly, but we won’t cease to exist as a nation. I don’t know how many cities it would take to bring us to our knees.

There HAS been martial law imposed on a limited basis in the past in the US. It has always been rescinded when the emergency passed. Again, it depends on the level and extent of devastation. A Hiroshima-sized bomb is different than something of a 100 megatons generating massive amounts of fallout. There is enormous vaiabillity in these matters.

So… anyone up for disccusing the differences between losing one city to a 10 kiloton device vs. losing a dozen to megatonnage level bombs? But, of course, the more cities and greater weaponry you propose, the less likely the scenario is to occur.

Broomstick… one small detail… you simplify things by saying that Al Qaeda just wants a body count of westerners and americans. Also your huge post keeps rattling on about the effects of terrorism on the US structure…

Al Qaeda might love the idea of the US falling apart... but that is not their primary objective by far. So all you long post isn't that relevant to the discussion. Of course the US got more united in some aspects... of course there were no race riots.

What if Al Qaeda explodes a nuke in a small town of a 101 people... just for show ? They now demand the US withdraw support for a certain jewish state... very small body count and total terror. Othewise they will trigger pre positioned nuke in New York. Do you think the US will not become hostage to this nuclear blackmail ? So objectives probably achieved with little bloodshed and great results for AQ.

I’d like to address the “terrorists have already won” argument briefly.

It can be said that during a couple of our wars, we temporarily lost some essential freedoms. During the Civil War, habeas corpus was suspended in some areas. During WWII there were also many civil rights concerns, not to mention rationing.

But after the war, all our freedoms were restored. So even if terrorists conceivably could get martial law declared, they wouldn’t have won more than a temporary victory, if you even want to call it that. I don’t think the Japanese were to concerned about the internal situation of the US while we were busy pummeling their territory.

So, adaher, by what metric will the “War on Terror” be considered over? At least with the other wars you mentioned, there were clear and obvious conditions to declare the war active/over.

As it stands now, the “War on Terror” is as nebulous and ill-defined as the “War on Drugs,” which has been going on for over twenty years now with no end in sight. The notion that it’s okay for Americans to suspend essential freedoms and curtail our rights until Some High-Ranked Authority Figure says we get them back seems very wrong…

In response to the OP, yes. They would. I know if I had a nuke, a delivery system (a boat or whatever) and hated the US at least as much as I hate olives, New York or San Francisco or Washington would be a glowing parking lot on my next day off.

Well, the War on Terror will probably never be over from a law enforcement perspective. Which is why I oppose the Patriot Act and HOmeland Security, just as I oppose a drug czar or the DEA.

The War on Terror on the international front has a more definite ending. When there is no state that uses terrorism to strike at the US, the war will be over.

However, we are talking about a hypothetical nuclear strike, and that would probably justify some kind of extreme crackdown similar to what happened during the Civil War, or at least what happened in WWII.

**As it stands now, the “War on Terror” is as nebulous and ill-defined as the “War on Drugs,” which has been going on for over twenty years now with no end in sight. The notion that it’s okay for Americans to suspend essential freedoms and curtail our rights until Some High-Ranked Authority Figure says we get them back seems very wrong…
**

Obviously, in the case of the War on Terror as it is currently waged. However, a nuclear strike would change the whole war considerably. I don’t think a nuke is possible without the backing of a foreign government, and that will mean war with a defined enemy that will already have nukes.

Come on Adaher... no state support is necessary to keep a terrorist organization going these days. Private donors or corruption can supply financially terrorist just as easily. 

Even if all Arabs crackdown heavily… do you think they will be able to stop Al Qaeda any better than UK did the IRA or Spain did with ETA ?

Politics might change and then terrorism will "slow down" or change tactics... but if most of the factors don't change terrorism won't die out... at best a very low activity.

Well, I’m not trying to write a book on Al Qaeda, and I think book-length would be required for anything not simplified. No, I don’t think a body-count is their only objective, but I think too many Americans keep wanting to think that (as in a prior post) the deaths in something like the WTC or an embassy bombing are “collateral damage” - that is, unintended consequences of achieving a different objective - and they’re not. Killing the “infidel” is a major point of Al Qaeda’s operations.

My understanding is that their primary objective is the destruction of Western civilization and the establishment of what they consider a Muslim paradise on Earth. Eliminating the US is a major step on that path. They also want the West out of the Middle East and a bunch of other things

I think you say “of course”, Rashak, only because you do have a fairly good grasp of the US as a culture. There are countries that can easily dissolve into ethnic riots or even massacres - look what happened to Yugoslavia. Some countries are “united” only because of the strong man at the helm and when the strong central government loses influence chaos erupts. The US is united on a grass-roots level, not from the top-down.

Another aspect of US culture is that when the crap hits the fan we don’t sit around waiting for orders - we can and do spontaneously self-organize in times of crisis. Not all cultures encourage that sort of independence.

Hmm… well, we don’t really know until it happens, but let’s speculate…

First of all, “a small town of 101 people” seems TOO small for such a demonstration - fertilizers-and-fuel bombs have taken out a couple hundred people at one blow. Just seems that detonating even a small nuke in Times Square will have soooo much more impact. But, for the sake of speculation, lets say it was a small town (maybe the big towns were too well guarded. Whatever)

OK, the Bomb went off, we now have a radioactive crater in… Montana. Something like that. They blew up Mt. Rushmore and took out a hundred or so tourists (strikes me as more likely - you get a symbol AND some people). Now they say they have “a bomb” in New York… just one bomb?

Here I’m sitting just outside of Chicago. Now, I don’t wish New York any harm (how I feel about the characters that just nuked my country is a very different matter…) but I also do not want to submit to nuclear blackmail, either. Don’t particularly care much for Isreal - let’s be honest here, on a personal level I don’t give a rat’s backside for the entire so-called “Holy Land” - but I don’t want to submit to nuclear blackmail. Although I can’t say for sure how I’d feel if this actually happened, I think my emotions would be a very volitile mix of grief and homicidal rage. I might say call the “bluff” and join the “hunt them down and kill them” crowd.

Even if the Federal government opted to give in, there’s still the populace at large. Americans are well known for being both stubborn and, at times, lawless. So much depends on what the citizenry at large is going to want. At a certain point you can’t stop the mob. 250,000,000+ pissed off people is not a safe situation. We could have Muslims hanging from trees and lampposts - not something I’d want to see happen but a very strong possibility. I can’t see this as contributing to world peace - but then, Al Qaeda might be quite happy to see something of that sort occur.

And, needless to say, New York City would empty out pretty quickly, even if that meant walking on foot. You can evacuate a city (I’ve been part of two evacuations of the Chicago Loop myself - surprisingly orderly, all things considered). Once that happens, the blackmail value of a pre-positioned bomb in NYC becomes less useful.

Naw - you don’t announce which city you have the bomb in. Just say “a major city”. That way you have panic in every city over 100,000 people across an entire continent.

Although I don’t care much for Isreal, it would be very out of character for us to dump our support completely. We might, however, pull back temporarially to buy time to search NYC for the nuke - if there is one. Or we might say that if we lose New York the Muslims lose Mecca - and you know we have nukes that can reach there in a matter of minutes - so the rest of the Islamic world had better hand over the bad guys pronto unless they want to suspend the haj until the kaaba stops glowing. Two can play at the blackmail game, you know.

But, again, I think you’re making the mistake of thinking that if you hit the US hard enough they’ll turn tail and go away. It doesn’t work that way. So far, the only time we’ve pulled out of a fight is after a long stretch of guerilla action against our troops (which is being tried in Iraq right now, if anyone’s paying attention).

The only way to keep the US from boiling over after an attack is to hit us so hard we are unable to retaliate - which is why I was harping on our decentralized governmental structures. Destroying just one city - of any size - will not do that.

But let’s set aside the Bad Boys from the Gulf. Al Qaeda may be really nasty customers, but I do believe they have some rational folks running the show. They have objectives and they are capable (as demonstrated) of the patience and preparation to pull off some very impressive attacks with minimal resources. If, however, you know their goals you can have some understanding of their motivations and make some predictions about how they will react.

The folks who really scare me? North Korea. I’m just not sure about the guy in charge. Is he a fruit loop or isn’t he? He IS, at this very moment, skirting the edges of nuclear blackmail with the one country that has actually used nukes against someone else. What the hell is this guy thinking? Is he crazy enough to use nukes to start a war? Are the guys working for him crazy enough to follow such orders?

We’re reasonably convinced the guy actually HAS a nuke bomb already. Not a dirty bomb, a fission bomb. He clearly has the boats, planes, and missles to deliver a fission bomb. In theory, he could reach the West Coast of North America. He could certainly reach Hawaii (which, if we defended as a territory we will certainly defend as a state). He can, without question, reach Seoul or Tokyo. Forget Al Qaeda - if your talking about nuclear blackmail it’s North Korea we need to be discussing.

Now, after WWII we told the Japanese they weren’t allowed to make war any more. They would be allowed a small force for self-defense (which are constitutionally forbidden to deploy abroad), but we promised that if Japan was attacked we would come to their defense. In other words, if you attack Japan you automatically declare war on the US as well. I am not famillar with the exact wording of the treaties involved but to my knowledge they’re still in effect. In other words, if North Korea nukes Tokyo the US will feel compelled to respond. Given our economic interests as well as treaty obligations this will not be a half-hearted response.

The Japanese will DEFINITELY respond - I can’t see anyway to stop several million of them from crossing that bit of ocean between them and North Korea. The Japanese are not one bit afraid to die in battle, or sacrifice themselves for their country.

It’s really a question of whether the Japanese or the US will arrive first in North Korea.

It’s going to get really, really noisy in North Korea in the short term if that happens. And the Japanese are not known for mercy on the battlefield, or much concern over civilians or collateral damage. It was pretty bloody when the US and Japan clashed in battle - imagine the two countries on the same side in a war. This will not be pretty.

But let’s leave Japan out of this. Let’s say what’s-his-name lobs a nuke and it hits the west coast. This isn’t a terrorist group hiding in caves and being secretive. It’s an established government lobbing a missile at us. OK - does anyone here seriously think we would NOT retaliate in kind? Yes, I think if Mr. North Korea nuked, say, LA we would finally use some of those ICBM’s.

Next question: if all that occurred - what do you think world reaction would be?

Your analogy for the “War on Terror” is relevant in a broader sense if the THREAT of terrorism is used to perpetually restrict freedom. However, the threat of terrorism is decided in the court of public opinion and is formed over time based on current events.

The “War on Terror” will, IMO, be considered over when there are stable, independent governments in Iraq and Afghanistan. At this point I would expect a shift in policy from domestic terror prevention to international terror prevention.

Broomstick, the man’s name is Kim Jong Il.

Just thought you’d like to know.

Oh, and I agree quite a lot with you.

I could agree with the idea that the “War On Terror” will be over when there are stable governments in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Oh, wait, no, I can’t. Iraq and Afghanistan did not attack us, unless you believe that Afghanistan’s government at the time – the Taliban – was in fact in league with Bin Laden, and that Bin Laden/Al Qaida were directly responsible for 9/11.

Not saying I do or don’t believe this. I don’t know for sure. I suspect it might be true, but I dunno.

…but this leaves a fair number of possible antagonists very lively and unhappy and still able to strike. The terrorists responsible for 9/11 were from Egypt and Saudi Arabia, after all… not Iraq or Afghanistan.

In the past, our essential freedoms have been curtailed when the government felt it was necessary. This is bad, and the fact that they gave those freedoms back doesn’t make it any less bad. If nothing else, it set a horrible precedent.

…and I just don’t see the “War On Terror” ending. Period. Hell, every so often, one of our OWN people goes bugshit and shoots up a school… or flies a plane into a building… or holds his boss hostage… or takes a potshot at a President…

I mean, when is the world ever going to be completely safe from armed lunatics?

Answer: it isn’t.

Technically, this “Patriot Act” crap could go on forever.

Ok got some stuff you said better this time broomstick… thou I can’t speculate how ignorant about the US the Al Qaeda is for example… a certain measure of society breaking up in the US would have been a bad miscalculation on their part. Most democracies tend to be more solid.

Now you described a mass evacuation of NY as a possible response to the nuclear blackmail… don’t you think that kind of result is not a victory for the terrorists ? Your idea that “Killing the infidel is a major point of Al Qaeda’s operations” I partly disagree… its probably nice for terrorists to kill lots… but its not the END result they seek necessarily. More deaths helps only as thru the fact that bigger numbers scare and terrorize more. With 250 million americans … give 100 or take 100 doesn’t make much difference.

As for US resolve... its one thing to defend the country from aggression... its another politically when the enemy clearly has the upper hand and nukes to back them up. Especially if the issue is more external then internal (Israel). Politics will figure strongly in US reaction... if people think your putting a whole city in danger from tough talking... politicians will change their tone and stance.

Yes it “could” go on forever, but I think history will repeat itself and the restrictions will be reduced when the threat diminishes. The world will never be free from lunatics, but 9/11 was done by fanatics. The destinction is important because fanatics have the capacity to reason. If the United States had chosen to support Ahmad Shah Massoud instead of OBL things might have been different. Supporting a fanatic was a poor choice in retrospect.

Thank you. I couldn’t remember, and I frequently get the name confused with his father’s which, is similar.

I agree, viable democracies are not prone to fracture, however, the leaders and a sizable part of the Al Qaeda rank and file do not come from democracies so their knowledge of such societies is second hand. The often noisy public arguments the US has over relative trivia may be seen as a weakness and lack of control by the government in the eyes of people from more authoritarian societies.

And, let’s face it, the US finds the Al Qaeda “society” pretty mysterious. It’s so different from what we’ve lived with that it can be quite hard for us to wrap our heads around their basic principles and motivations.

Yes, any evidence of terror is a victory. But blowing up and empty city is less a victory than blowing up one filled with people. On the other hand, it would be foolish to pretend that something like 9/11 didn’t have an effect. In any conflict there are individual battles won and lost. No one wins every time.

Well, I’m not going to take it personally if you see things differently. Certainly, you have a very different perspective on all this and hearing your viewpoint gives much food for thought.

Going back to 9/11 for a bit - just what was the “true” objective there? Destroy the WTC? Kill a lot of people? Destory the buildings AND kill people? Destroy the Pentagon? Kill a lot of people? Destory the Pentagon AND kill a lot of people? Make the larger population afraid of airplanes? Screw up the US economy due to loss of life, property, and suspicion of a major means of transporting people and cargo? Hit (perhaps) the White House and kill the President? Hit (perhaps) Congress and take out our legislature? Maybe all of the above? Was the event more successful than the planners hoped, or less? Will we ever really know?

To my mind, it’s clear that “kill lots of people” was on the list of objectives for that day. Just how high on the list that item was I don’t know. Clearly, though, some folks went to a LOT of trouble to break things and kill people, and you don’t go through that much trouble and expense without expecting a fairly large pay-off.

I don’t know if the perpetrators expected the WTC to collapse as it did. I do think they expected more dead, though - a lot of folks were late to work because it was an election day in New York City and they had stopped to vote first (very strange to think that the basic democratic act of voting might have saved some lives). A day before or a day after more might have been in the buildings at that time, and more might have been killed.

I think they expected the Pentagon to suffer more damage - but it’s a massive, massive building, and ironically the section they hit had recently been modified to resist things such as truck bombs and other explosives. Obviously, it didn’t stop a jet from plowing through it, but it mitigated some of the damage, and due to the remodeling there were fewer than normal people in that section.

And if they WERE intending to get the White House and kill the President - well, he was in Florida that day, so it wouldn’t have worked.

You can look at those facts and either conclude they chose those times/locations to minimize casualties (in which case - why didn’t they strike at night to further minimize loss of life) or look at that and conclude that, while clever, their intelligence is not perfect. Just on the matter of where the POTUS is - even prior to 9/11 there were flight restrctions in the vicinity of Air Force One and the President’s person, flight restrictions easily accessible to any pilot which will locate the POTUS within (at the time) 10-30 miles, and many parts of his schedule are released to the media beforehand and accessible to the public. If I had been interested, I could have determined which Florida city the POTUS was located in within 10 minutes of signing on to the Internet on 9/11/01. So could have the 9/11 hijackers, all of whom spoke/read English, several of whom were pilots. If the POTUS had been a target there would have been a runaway jet in Florida. But I don’t think the President was the target - I think the civilians were. They wanted to kill ordinary people. Maybe they do know enough to realize that if you did lop the head off the hydra it would just grow a new one. But if they think that by killing average citizens they’re going to foment a rebellion in the US they’re way off base.

I dunno… we can get really worked up about just a few folks. Other times we ignore the suffering of thousands of our own. It’s real hard to predict which way the US will jump in the matter of any particular death or deaths.

Yes, it is different.

Only one nation has faced the situation of being attacked with nuclear weapons, and that is Japan. Even after the destruction of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, however, there was a contingent that wanted to keep fighting. Some of the engaged in guerilla tactics during the US occupation. Nukes will not cause everyone to back down.

Also, just one nuke does not give one the “upper hand” when the folks you’re aiming it at will not cease to exist in their entirety should you use, and they themselves have a very powerful military - including nukes of their own - with which to hunt you down after the fact.

Doesn’t require anything as large destorying a city - enough young men and women coming home in body bags or wheelchairs can do it. (Hence, the current tactics in Iraq. I’m sure some of the organizers are wondering why it’s taking so long for us to pull out when those tactics worked so well in Viet Nam and Somalia).

There are a lot of factors that could turn the mob one way or the other. Knowing who to go after is a very important one. If the identity of the enemy is clear it’s a very different situation than when you don’t know who is behind the mess.

I saw what was supposed to be an interview with an unidentified Al Qaeda member post 9/11... but before Afghanistan and Iraq. Thou I have suspicions of it being a email prank... the points made were funny enough mostly economic. Which is the reason NYC got hit more than Washington. The Al Qaeda guy had some distorted notions of economics... but within those distorted views AlQaeda plans were actually pretty good. The main point was that the US had 60%+ of their economy in services sector.... some industry and a lot of agriculture. By attacking key targets and terrorizing... plus loss of air industry and break up with Arab countries the US economy would suffer a lot. Wierd... but made some sense... except that "services" doesnt mean "made up economy". A world crisis would make the US a agricultural nation again.... bla bla bla... still the objective wasn't KILL KILL....
Which is the main reason people around the world are so pissed at the Iraq debacle... and why fighting terrorism is not a military operation ALONE. AQ and other terrorists aren't easy to find and bomb as some fools seem to think. ("We gotch moure Bombis than the'va gotcha terror'shits" thinking.)

Hey, I’m pretty ticked off about Iraq, myself. I didn’t think we had a justification for going in from the get-go, and I just knew the current administration was going to bollix the “peace”. Bush & Co. can’t handle America’s domestic situation, how in the hell can they handle someone else’s? The whole notion that the Iraqis were going to welcome us as liberators was utter weehocky, and the minute I heard that come out of Dubya’s mouth I started moaning “No-no-no-no-no! We’re doooooooomed!”

I think the situation can be salvaged - but not by the current crew in Washington. Which means you won’t see real progress in resolving the situation until 2005. (That’s when the new guy I hope is elected in November 2004 will be sworn in). That means a lot more people are going to die before this is over.

On the bright side, I heard yesterday that Afganistan is making progress towards a new, permanent government and that some Afghanis are making a reverse migration from the US back to their homeland. Maybe this is happening becuase we haven’t been focusing too much attention on Afghanistan and letting them sort out their own affairs. Then again, Afghanistan doesn’t have massive oil fields to complicate the situation with profiteers.

Of course, what’s frustraing is getting GOOD information on any of this. I don’t really trust anyone’s media, it’s a matter of reading 14 different versions and trying to sift out the truth.

But yes, I agree that a good portion of the 9/11 effort was intended to hit our economy. And it did. We were going to have a recession of some sort, but 9/11 triggered it and made it worse. However, New York City is NOT the whole of the US economy. It’s an amazing city, it’s an important city, but even if you leveled the whole thing the country would recover and move on.

The worst on-going damage I think has been to US avaition. The average citizen, whose knowing contact is with the airline that takes them to and from a vacation once or twice a year, doesn’t see it but the whole infrastructure of the industry is slowly collapsing, in large part due to paranoia on the part of government officials and the public at large. But that’s a different topic than this thread.

I wouldn’t really put it like this. Subduing the infidel is more like it ( and at that I would say it is really more a secondary, tertiary, or even largely theoretical ultimate goal, well behind “putting their own house back into order”, i.e. remaking the Muslim world as it stands in their own image ). I do agree it is likely al Qaeda aimed for maximum casualties in the 9/11 attacks, but not so much to “kill infidels” ( all things considered even religious fanatics prefer converts to corpses ), as to sow maximum terror as a political weapon.

Interesting to note that Japan consistently ranks between third and fourth in the world in terms of defense budgets. Their “Self Defense Force”, though not huge and constitutionally constrained, is probably pretty formidable and capable of being ramped up rapidly in a crisis.

It’s another minor nitpick, but I do think this is perhaps a somewhat outdated national stereotype. The Japanese national character as regards to warfare, if we can even speak of such in anything but the most amorphous way, is regarded by many as being pretty significantly different overall than it was in WW II era. Not to say Japan wouldn’t defend itself aggressively - I’m just not so sure you can make the claim that they would be notably more brutal on the battlefield than any other nation. If anything, if Japan remained a democracy, the reverse might be the case, as various varieties of pacifism or near-pacifism has a strong following in Japan these days.

  • Tamerlane

Interesting thread, and nice tangeants about the possible reactions to a nuclear strike.

I would like to follow up on the whole radiation detection bit, as it was kind of left dangling.

[QUOTE]
Gamma Radiation Spectrometer.

http://www.sandia.gov/LabNews/LN02-.../arms_story.htm

“An ultra-low-power (25 mW), ultra-small (2.5 in3), gamma-radiation spectrometer was demonstrated on a small, radio-frequency security sensor platform by the Integrated Nuclear Materials Monitoring (INuMM) Program in July 1999. This technology allows for the long-term monitoring of gamma-radiation spectra using a small, battery-powered sensor platform. An INuMM-based, gamma radiation spectrometer has been used to demonstrate the continuous monitoring of spectra of nuclear warheads stored in containers. (2300, 2200, 8300, 1700, 5300, 8400) (NWSBU)”

It is but one sensor type out of quite a few, and the system is set up to err on the side of caution. This means that radiation/chemotherapy patients or those with prostate cancer treating radioactive implants can set them off. It’s important to understand that US efforts to monitor for this start beyond it’s own borders. It gives money and equipment and training to quite a few other countries to help them detect any wandering fissle materials in their territory. So it’s not just a matter of smuggling it into the US. First you have to smuggle it OUT of a monitored country in most cases, then you have to transport it to the US where there is more monitoring, then you have to transport it within the US to it’s destination, where there is still more monitoring.

It’s NOT a foolproof system. But it would be very difficult to move the material around the world from Russia (the most likely source) to the US without crossing multiple monitoring points. Any of which might raise a red flag. The closer you get to a major US city, the more sensors there are to trip. You could probably blow up parts of Montana without anyone besides NORAD noticing the thermal bloom and radiotion spike… but driving it into downtown NYC would be quite a bit more difficult. /QUOTE]

I am curious as to how prevalent this system is. I mean, is it installed by the tens of thousands around every major city in the world and across whole borders? Is it maintained on Coast Guard ships patrolling the seas? How tight is this net? What is the range of one of these suckers? Also, what was the whole space-based sensor thing in reference to? Can they really detect moving radioactive material from such a great distance?

Also, in the event of a reading showing positive, what is the response time? People have said that cancer patients have triggered this sensor net; do SWAT teams and black helicopters come charging out of nowhere every time one of the sensors goes off? I suspect not, and that a triggered sensor would be investigated in a matter of hours, if not days, right? Isn’t this still leaving plenty of time for the nuclear product to skidaddle to a less sensor-riddled area?

Forgive me if these questions seem dumb, but I guess I’d like to know just how tight our security net is.

And can’t radiation be shielded (w/lead)?

And what about ABC’s sting operation which involved (successfully) smuggling radioactive material into (IIRC) New York?