# If Spanish is so Unamerican, why tolerate names like San Francisco and Los Angeles? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 27, 2002, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-spanish-is-so-unamerican-why-tolerate-names-like-san-francisco-and-los-angeles/125699 "2002-08-27T00:07:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Spooky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Spooky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spooky)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2002, 5:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-spanish-is-so-unamerican-why-tolerate-names-like-san-francisco-and-los-angeles/125699/21 "2002-08-27T05:07:13Z")
OK, I guess that I am still trying to figure out exactly why English should be the U.S.A.'s official language. Can someone provide me with a reasonable explanation? ---
**Author:** ![waterj2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/858c86/32.png) [@waterj2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/waterj2)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2002, 5:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-spanish-is-so-unamerican-why-tolerate-names-like-san-francisco-and-los-angeles/125699/22 "2002-08-27T05:26:59Z")
> [@](#): > > The evil Spanish language managed to actually manipulate time to make it appear like people have been speaking Spanish in California continuosly, for hundreds of years before English ever entered the scene!!! Well, let’s see, the names were given when the towns were started by Spaniards, then the area became part of Mexico, then the US took over, and a bit later many Americans moved in, and now there’s a bunch of Mexicans moving in. That the area was once Spanish speaking doesn’t at all imply that Spanish was spoken continuously for the whole time. > [@](#): > > Imagine the idea that Spanish is just as legitamite a language to speak in California as English is! Next thing you know, they will be claiming that most of California was Mexico before it was the United States!!! The two are completely unrelated. Not to mention, no one is saying that Spanish is illegitamite to speak. > [@](#): > > Imagine the nerve of people for saying that it is alright to speak the language that your people have been speaking for generations. Again, this is a stupid strawman. The issue isn’t whether or not Spanish is OK to speak. Attributing stupid arguments to your opponents is a pretty shitty way of debating. It makes it seem that you don’t have a decent argument to make. There is a big difference between saying that speaking Spanish is wrong and saying that a subculture refusing to assimilate in very basic ways with a larger culture is going to cause problems. You really aren’t going to get anywhere with people who hold the latter view by mocking the former. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2002, 5:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-spanish-is-so-unamerican-why-tolerate-names-like-san-francisco-and-los-angeles/125699/23 "2002-08-27T05:50:03Z")
Okay, let me get a little more to the point. Americans who speak Spanish in Southern California, Southern Texas and certain other parts of America are not a subculture that “needs to assimilate”, but rather a major culture of the area that is equally as “American” as Anglo-Saxon American culture. Acting American is the not synonomous with acting like an Anglo-Saxon American. I live next to Watsonville, California. In Watsonville, on the whole, they speak Spanish. It is possible to live in Watsonville without a full understanding of English. It is hard to live in Watsonville without a basic understanding of Spanish. In Watsonville, the Americans speak Spanish. Therefore, in Watsonville, it is American to speak Spanish. And if it serves the Americans of Watsonville to have government services in Spanish, who has any right to say that they shouldn’t? ---
**Author:** ![waterj2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/858c86/32.png) [@waterj2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/waterj2)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2002, 6:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-spanish-is-so-unamerican-why-tolerate-names-like-san-francisco-and-los-angeles/125699/24 "2002-08-27T06:07:04Z")
Well, you apparently have the ability to make valid points. What you just posted is an actual argument. I’m not really going to argue, as I see no reason to have an official language, even if I’d like to never have to learn another language myself. ---
**Author:** ![InternetLegend](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/internetlegend/32/13154_2.png) [@InternetLegend](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/InternetLegend)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2002, 6:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-spanish-is-so-unamerican-why-tolerate-names-like-san-francisco-and-los-angeles/125699/25 "2002-08-27T06:07:35Z")
I don’t care what the Californians do about the issue of Spanish-speaking in their own state. I’d just like them to quit moving to New Mexico only to start complaining about us being bilingual _here_. ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2002, 9:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-spanish-is-so-unamerican-why-tolerate-names-like-san-francisco-and-los-angeles/125699/26 "2002-08-27T09:30:54Z")
But where would we stop with the bilingual ballots? As someone pointed out in the GD thread, there’s lots of immigrants from a lot of different places speaking a lot of different languages. We can’t have ballots in ALL those languages, so SOMEBODY is gonna get left out. Just because we translate a ballot into spanish doesn’t mean that everyone who hails (originally) from a spanish speaking area is going to understand it. IIRC, there are more than few dialects of spanish. There may be even more dialects of chinese. (Narcotics Anonymous is having trouble getting one ‘official’ translation of our text into spanish for that reason. There are several ‘unofficial’ and unapproved versions) Do we stop and spanish and chinese? If so, why? Why not include german and french. Japanese? Lots of them here. Swiss? Then there’s the problem of having the ballots in the polls. How do you know how many of which language to keep on hand? You can’t tell someones language from their name on a voter roll. Just because someone is named Jose Diaz or Xioa Cheng doesn’t mean they speak anything other than english. Would people have to contact the (whatever branch of the government handles voting) and inform them of what language ballot they’ll need when the register to vote? Would the options of languages be based on the number of those registered who speak that lanquage? What number would justify the inclusion of that language? ---
**Author:** ![Snooooopy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ee7513/32.png) [@Snooooopy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snooooopy)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2002, 10:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-spanish-is-so-unamerican-why-tolerate-names-like-san-francisco-and-los-angeles/125699/27 "2002-08-27T10:20:03Z")
They’re all set to change San Francisco’s name to something more American, except renaming a city is really hard and boring work and it doesn’t pay well at all, so they’re having a hard time finding anyone who will do it. If ONLY there were a way to, oh, import people from some other location who would work for chicken feed … ---
**Author:** ![Mighty\_Girl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7bcc69/32.png) [@Mighty\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mighty_Girl)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2002, 12:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-spanish-is-so-unamerican-why-tolerate-names-like-san-francisco-and-los-angeles/125699/28 "2002-08-27T12:34:39Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by **spooje** \* > …there are more than few dialects of spanish. Not in the spirit of hijacking this thread, but I won’t let this pass… As a native Spanish speaker I can tell you that I understand the Spanish of every Spanish-speaking country in the world. There is not that much difference and the accent is the main difference (and local slang of course), but the same happens between English people, Americans and Canadians, and I don’t see them having a communication problem. ---
**Author:** ![Toaster52](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/50afbb/32.png) [@Toaster52](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Toaster52)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2002, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-spanish-is-so-unamerican-why-tolerate-names-like-san-francisco-and-los-angeles/125699/29 "2002-08-27T16:58:58Z")
Well, damn…I think I’ll move down to Mexico, refuse to learn their language, and demand that the entire country change their signs, documents, ballots, whatever, just so I won’t be inconvenienced. ---
**Author:** ![cornflakes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9d8465/32.png) [@cornflakes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cornflakes)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2002, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-spanish-is-so-unamerican-why-tolerate-names-like-san-francisco-and-los-angeles/125699/30 "2002-08-27T19:22:17Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Slainte \* > \*\* > > They’ve been in the US for more than 150 years & not bothered to learn English yet? I’m certain that if I moved to a country where my native tongue wasn’t the official language, I would (and would be expected to) learn the country’s language. \*\* No, the U.S. has been in Texas for about 150 years; their ancestors have been here for thousands of years and have spoken Spanish for hundreds of those years. Considering that we are the newcomers here, maybe we should be the ones who are required to learn a new language if anyone does. All attitudes aside and speaking from personal experience, it makes economic sense to translate a few documents to accomodate different languages. To give but one example, I hired a Spanish speaking crew last year to pour four hundred square feet of concrete last year. Judging by the bids I got, it would have cost me at least three thousand dollars more to get an all English speaking crew and I would have waited months to get on a contractor’s schedule. I can’t help but think that any attempt to establish an official language is an attempt to make people feel unwelcome. Language is a personal thing. Our home languages are what we heard our parents speak when we were young, and comments like “it hurts America as a whole when (people) do not assimilate…” easily translate that people are only welcome if they give up or at least hide their identity. Witness the “French Immersion” movement **neutron star** mentioned, along with the “Jak se mas?” bumper stickers sprouting up around German/Czech Texas.\* I offered Switzerland as an example of a successful country that could never pick one language as an official language. Admittedly, there can’t be a comparison between how thing are done here and how they are done there, but there is no reason why multilingualism should be an economic drain on a multilingual country. The costs will be offset by the profits (any Euro Dopers care to comment?) Multilingualism, it’s cheap, it’s profitable and it’s friendly. …Unlike me at the moment. _Please_ people, the name is **cornflakes** , not corny and not cornflake (ok, I’m not that offended, but come on!) \*It’s Czech for “Hey, how are you?” In 1980, German was the third most used language in Texas; I believe Czech was fourth. With the building of interstates and media saturation, these languages are no longer used as primary languages and the people in Central Texas and the Guadalupe River Valley are worried that their whole culture will disappear in another generation. ---
**Author:** ![Slainte](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a698b9/32.png) [@Slainte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slainte)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2002, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-spanish-is-so-unamerican-why-tolerate-names-like-san-francisco-and-los-angeles/125699/31 "2002-08-27T20:48:36Z")
**Monty** what you consider _being alienated_ I consider _deciding to be separatist_. Let’s agree to disagree, shall we? **Wolfian** We’re pretty much on the same wavelength. I feel like if you are a tourist in or a new citizen of a country that predominately speaks something other than _your_ native tongue, it is _you_ who needs to make the extra effort; not the country. **cornflakes** (see I’ve gotten it right both times!) Let’s also please include Sioux, Lakota, Cherokee, Crow, etc in here - we need to conduct business in these languages & add it to our ballots because there are people whose ancestors spoke these languages when the White Man came in & took over. And their descendants still speak it today. ---
**Author:** ![Estilicon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/848f3c/32.png) [@Estilicon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Estilicon)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2002, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-spanish-is-so-unamerican-why-tolerate-names-like-san-francisco-and-los-angeles/125699/32 "2002-08-27T21:00:28Z")
Mighy Girl, if you ever crossed the border to Latin America you will be shot. Las palabras agudas llevan tilde cuando acaban en vocal (a, e, i, o, u), en n o en s. Ej.: mamá, bebé, jabalí, dominó, champú, volcán, compás. Las palabras graves llevan tilde cuando terminan en consonante que no sea n ni s. Ej.: árbol, carácter, césped, álbum, Pérez. Therefore Continuen does not have an accent. 🙂 (You may continue) ---
**Author:** ![Wolfian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/7ea924/32.png) [@Wolfian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wolfian)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2002, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-spanish-is-so-unamerican-why-tolerate-names-like-san-francisco-and-los-angeles/125699/33 "2002-08-27T21:05:33Z")
His name is **cornflakes** , not **corny** , **cornflake** , and definately not **cornfed**. His name is **cornflakes** , not **corny** , **cornflake** , and definately not **cornfed**. His name is **cornflakes** , not **corny** , **cornflake** , and definately not **cornfed**. His name is **cornflakes** , not **corny** , **cornflake** , and definately not **cornfed**. His name is **cornflakes** , not **corny** , **cornflake** , and definately not **cornfed**. His name is **cornflakes** , not **corny** , **cornflake** , and definately not **cornfed**. A thousand apologies. [sub]Please be a he.[/sub] ---
**Author:** ![Jimbrowski](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e9a140/32.png) [@Jimbrowski](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimbrowski)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2002, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-spanish-is-so-unamerican-why-tolerate-names-like-san-francisco-and-los-angeles/125699/34 "2002-08-27T21:06:40Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by spooje \* > **But where would we stop with the bilingual ballots? …there’s lots of immigrants from a lot of different places speaking a lot of different languages. Do we stop and spanish and chinese? If so, why? Why not include german and french. Japanese? Swiss?** No, really - somebody please provide arguments that support the inclusion of Spanish but not any other language. Really. I dare you - argue Spanish specifically at the exclusion of all other (non-English) tongues. Tell me why _Spanish_ deserves to be “co-official” while Tagalog, Mandarin, Czech and (fill in the blank) do not. (And please don’t try the ‘might makes right’ argument, i.e. “there’s more of _us_ than there are of _them_, so _our_ language should be included but not _theirs_.” That’s the exact same “elitist” argument some of you claim the ‘English only’ camp is using, and with little effect.) All of the arguments currently presented in favor of using _Spanish_ side-by-side with English also suffice and support the use any and every other language in the same manner. So please, someone, anyone, construct a logical, defensible argument to include _Spanish and only Spanish_, at the expense of _all other languages_ commonly spoken within our fine (yes, it is) country. > [@](#): > > _Originally posted by even sven_…but rather a major culture of the area that is equally as “American” as Anglo-Saxon American culture OK **sven** , define “major culture”, and clearly define what your cutoff is between “major” and “not major”. Do you mean to imply that there are indeed languages spoken in the U.S. that do not deserve this same crusade being afforded to the native-Spanish-speakers? Which cultures, exactly (please list them in alphabetical order), and thus their languages do you think do not deserve the same? Really, I dare you. I dare you to pick out one group that are ‘non-English-native-language-speakers’ and declare that their language is not worthy of the same attention being paid to Spanish. Go ahead: “_Spanish_ is worthy of “official” status, but _your language_ isn’t.” I do not think it’s a slippery slope argument to say that if we include _anything_ but English as an “official” language, then we must include _everything_ but English as “official” languages. If I am wrong then please, please take my challenge: construct a logical, defensible argument to include as “official” _Spanish and only Spanish_ at the expense of _all other languages_ commonly spoken within our country. And now, my opinion: I have nothing against any other language, any people, or anybody practicing or participating in their native culture. I have everything against printing every single fucking government document and conducting every single fucking civic function in every single fucking language on Earth. In Canada the government must publish two different versions of all legal matters, one French and one English. The two languages are not exact 1:1 correlations to each other, there are subtle nuances which exist in one but not the other. There are legal wranglings every single fucking time a piece of legislation comes up when somebody claims that the two versions are not identical (of course the one making the accusation claims injury) and that changes must be made. I do not want to have to go through the same bullshit here with Mandarin. Oh, no wait, I meant Portuguese. Uh, Arabic? No… Ukrainian. Wait a sec, I meant Cherokee. Actually, Hindi. ---
**Author:** ![doreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/858c86/32.png) [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2002, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-spanish-is-so-unamerican-why-tolerate-names-like-san-francisco-and-los-angeles/125699/35 "2002-08-27T22:00:03Z")
> [@](#): > > Not in the spirit of hijacking this thread, but I won’t let this pass… As a native Spanish speaker I can tell you that I understand the Spanish of every Spanish-speaking country in the world. There is not that much difference and the accent is the main difference (and local slang of course), but the same happens between English people, Americans and Canadians, and I don’t see them having a communication problem. Don’t speak Spanish but- I ,as an American English speaker, can certainly have a conversation with a British or Canadian English speaker.I have, however encountered the situation where I couldn’t understand something written by a British English speaker because I didn’t understand one or two words. (The word “caravan” comes to mind) Reading lacks the opportunity for clarification and explanation that conversation has. I’ve seen the Spanish interpreter where I work rephrase her translation when she wasn’t understood because, according to her, the phrase she used was not the one used in the Spanish speaker’s country. Wouldn’t be slang, because she’s interpreting legal proceedings, but she might have used an idiom specific to only a few countries.There is no one to notice the lack of understanding and rephrase with a printed ballot. ---
**Author:** ![Homebrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Homebrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Homebrew)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2002, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-spanish-is-so-unamerican-why-tolerate-names-like-san-francisco-and-los-angeles/125699/36 "2002-08-27T22:03:04Z")
> [@](#): > > But where would we stop with the bilingual ballots? Picture ballots. Seriously. I have a framed copy of the first post-Apartheid election held in South Africa. Since there were many illiterate voters, the pictures of the candidates were printed beside the flag/symbol of their party and the name of the party they represented. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2002, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-spanish-is-so-unamerican-why-tolerate-names-like-san-francisco-and-los-angeles/125699/37 "2002-08-27T23:42:11Z")
Slainte: I fail to see how someone who has no desire to separate from the United States but wishes to be included in what I consider the most important part of its government, the voting, can be considered a separatist. If the government, on the other hand, decides that it will not assist a citizen in the exercise of his or her rights but will instead place or keep an obstacle in that citizen’s path, then that’s alienation. ---
**Author:** ![Caffeine.addict](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f475e1/32.png) [@Caffeine.addict](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Caffeine.addict)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2002, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-spanish-is-so-unamerican-why-tolerate-names-like-san-francisco-and-los-angeles/125699/38 "2002-08-27T23:51:55Z")
Mighty Girl > [@](#): > > Not in the spirit of hijacking this thread, but I won’t let this pass… As a native Spanish speaker I can tell you that I understand the Spanish of every Spanish-speaking country in the world. There is not that much difference and the accent is the main difference (and local slang of course), but the same happens between English people, Americans and Canadians, and I don’t see them having a communication problem. What about Spanglish? I had a friend from Barcelona who had a great deal of difficulty understanding people in New York who spoke to him in what sounded like Spanglish. I’m not familiar with the border communities but surely the Spanish that has spoken there has changed enough that something might not translate the same as it would in Madrid or in Buenos Aires. ---
**Author:** ![Slainte](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a698b9/32.png) [@Slainte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slainte)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2002, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-spanish-is-so-unamerican-why-tolerate-names-like-san-francisco-and-los-angeles/125699/39 "2002-08-28T00:00:34Z")
From **Brutus** in the thread linked in the OP: > [@](#): > > From the INS website, here are the basic requirments to become a naturalized citizen of the United States: > > - a period of continuous residence and physical presence in the United States; > > - residence in a particular INS District prior to filing; > > \*\*\* an ability to read, write and speak English\*\*; > > - a knowledge and understanding of U.S. history and government; > > - good moral character; > > - attachment to the principles of the U.S. Constitution; and, > > - favorable disposition toward the United States. > > An ability to read, write, and speak English is a legal requirement to become a citizen. Requirement, as in, you MUST know how to read, write, and speak English before you become a citizen in the first place! > Couple language requirement with the need for a knowledge of US history and gov’t, and you have an electorate. > > When my family came to America, we all knew a bit of english. Me and my sister were better off then my parents, but still, along with our host family and the ‘required’ 40 hours of classroom instruction, we learned (more) English. > > I expect nothing less from other immigrants. > We do not speak English at home, but it goes without saying that we are better off knowing English. > > It seems that some (by no means all) new immigrants are not actually meeting the immigration requirements, and now want the system to change for them. Sad. **Monty** this thread is about more than just the issue of voting. If someone immigrates to America, becomes a Naturalized citizen and wants to vote, more power to them. The INS has requirements that should be met though. I don’t think America should cater to people who refuse to learn/use the language. YMMV ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2002, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-spanish-is-so-unamerican-why-tolerate-names-like-san-francisco-and-los-angeles/125699/40 "2002-08-28T01:02:30Z")
There’s a huge difference, Slainte, betweein immigrating to a country and being born in it. I certainly hope you don’t think that citizenship in this grand land must be earned by those who are born here!? Let’s assume you’re of voting age in the United States: what test did you have to take to vote? If none, why are you adding a test for someone based on the language they know? And exactly how good are you at picking up a foreign language? Not everyone has that ability. And, for numerous reasons, not everyone born in the United States uses English at home. Last I checked, home is where one learns their native language. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-spanish-is-so-unamerican-why-tolerate-names-like-san-francisco-and-los-angeles/125699.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-spanish-is-so-unamerican-why-tolerate-names-like-san-francisco-and-los-angeles/125699.md?page=3)