# If that's not an emolument, I don't know what is **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 17, 2019, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-thats-not-an-emolument-i-dont-know-what-is/841919 "2019-10-17T19:23:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Running\_with\_Scissors](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/a183cd/32.png) [@Running\_with\_Scissors](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Running_with_Scissors)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2019, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-thats-not-an-emolument-i-dont-know-what-is/841919/1 "2019-10-17T19:23:10Z")
[Trump has awarded G-7 summit to his Miami-area resort, the White House says](https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/trump-has-awarded-next-years-g-7-summit-of-world-leaders-to-his-miami-area-resort-the-white-house-said/2019/10/17/221b32d6-ef52-11e9-89eb-ec56cd414732_story.html) Geez, they’re not even trying to pretend that they’re doing the right thing any more. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2019, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-thats-not-an-emolument-i-dont-know-what-is/841919/2 "2019-10-17T22:48:24Z")
> [@Running\_with\_Scissors](#): > > [Trump has awarded G-7 summit to his Miami-area resort, the White House says](https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/trump-has-awarded-next-years-g-7-summit-of-world-leaders-to-his-miami-area-resort-the-white-house-said/2019/10/17/221b32d6-ef52-11e9-89eb-ec56cd414732_story.html) > > Geez, they’re not even trying to pretend that they’re doing the right thing any more. Yeah, Mr. Trump’s decision seems unethical and unconstitutional. The ways out of this are: [ul][li]There actually aren’t any other facilities in the entirety of the United States suitable for the G-7[/li][li]He’s just kidding[/li][li]It turns out that Mr. Trump is gifting the resort to the federal government[/li][li]The resort, subsidiaries, & parent organization(s) make exactly $0 in revenue from the gig, _before_ expenses[/ul][/li] ETA: But then again, once upon a time President George Washington was all like, “let’s put the new capital in my backyard!” And critics said, “he just wants to raise his property value”. And GW said, “no, it’s a great place, trust me”. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2019, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-thats-not-an-emolument-i-dont-know-what-is/841919/3 "2019-10-17T22:57:08Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > But then again, once upon a time President George Washington was all like, “let’s put the new capital in my backyard!” And critics said, “he just wants to raise his property value”. And GW said, “no, it’s a great place, trust me”. > > ~Max That was not a _foreign_ emolument. Silly **Max**. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2019, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-thats-not-an-emolument-i-dont-know-what-is/841919/4 "2019-10-17T23:00:43Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > That was not a _foreign_ emolument. Silly **Max**. > > ~Max Apologies for the triple post. But I am unsure if it would be a violation of the Foreign Emoluments clause if the federal government pays the resort, and the resort provides accommodations for G-7 at no charge to participants. Just thinking out loud here. Not sure if that’s how this thing works. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2019, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-thats-not-an-emolument-i-dont-know-what-is/841919/5 "2019-10-17T23:09:02Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > That was not a _foreign_ emolument. Silly **Max**. > > ~Max Given that the summit location was apparently selected by President Trump / the US government, is this a _foreign_ emolument? For reference: > [@Article I](#): > > No Title of Nobility shall be granted by the United States: And no Person holding any Office of Profit or Trust under them, shall, without the Consent of the Congress, accept of any present, Emolument, Office, or Title, of any kind whatever, from any King, Prince, or foreign State. And, for that matter, given this: > [@](#): > > [… The summit will be held at the Trump National Doral Miami, Mulvaney told reporters at a White House briefing. He said the Trump property was the best possible facility and that **Trump’s business would not earn a profit**. > > “ **They are doing this at cost** … it will be dramatically cheaper for us to do it at Doral,” Mulvaney said. …]([Trump to hold 2020 G-7 at the Trump National Doral Miami - Washington Examiner](https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/white-house/trump-awards-next-years-g7-to-his-own-resort)) (emphasis mine) Is it even an emolument at all? I think there are some ethical concerns at play, but I’m not sure it’s an “emoluments clause” violation. ---
**Author:** ![snfaulkner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snfaulkner/32/433_2.png) [@snfaulkner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/snfaulkner)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2019, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-thats-not-an-emolument-i-dont-know-what-is/841919/6 "2019-10-17T23:17:29Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Given that the summit location was apparently selected by President Trump / the US government, is this a _foreign_ emolument? > > For reference: > > And, for that matter, given this: > > (emphasis mine) > > Is it even an emolument at all? > > I think there are some ethical concerns at play, but I’m not sure it’s an “emoluments clause” violation. Open the books and prove there was no profit. I’m sure he knows all about Hollywood accounting schemes. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2019, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-thats-not-an-emolument-i-dont-know-what-is/841919/7 "2019-10-17T23:17:33Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Given that the summit location was apparently selected by President Trump / the US government, is this a _foreign_ emolument? Right. The selection itself is not a foreign emolument, if it is even an emolument at all. The foreign emolument is triggered when a foreign state actually pays Mr. Trump’s personal company for the privilege of attending an official state function. > [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Is it even an emolument at all? If they are really operating at a loss, it’s debatable. But I don’t place any weight on a for-profit company’s claim that they accepted a government contract at a loss. I’m thinking about a Hollywood-style accounting “loss”. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![Running\_with\_Scissors](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/a183cd/32.png) [@Running\_with\_Scissors](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Running_with_Scissors)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2019, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-thats-not-an-emolument-i-dont-know-what-is/841919/8 "2019-10-17T23:18:29Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Given that the summit location was apparently selected by President Trump / the US government, is this a _foreign_ emolument? Hmm, I kind of assumed that the other G7 governments would be paying their way…thinking about it, maybe not, though. But we’d have to take Trump at his word that the property wouldn’t be making any money. And how good is his word? ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2019, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-thats-not-an-emolument-i-dont-know-what-is/841919/9 "2019-10-17T23:27:56Z")
> [@snfaulkner](#): > > Open the books and prove there was no profit. I’m sure he knows all about Hollywood accounting schemes. The G7 summit in Doral isn’t until next June. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2019, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-thats-not-an-emolument-i-dont-know-what-is/841919/10 "2019-10-17T23:31:22Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > … The foreign emolument is triggered when a foreign state actually pays Mr. Trump’s personal company for the privilege of attending an official state function. … Is it the “attending an official state function” that’s the relevant distinction for you? ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2019, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-thats-not-an-emolument-i-dont-know-what-is/841919/11 "2019-10-17T23:38:01Z")
I readily admit my lack of expertise in this field, but “at cost” or “with no profit” doesn’t seem to me to be the definition of an emolument. Let’s say a government employee goes to give a speech in Saudi Arabia and receives a payment of $5,000. This person claiming that the trip cost him $10,000 because he flew business class would make the payment not an emolument. ---
**Author:** ![snfaulkner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snfaulkner/32/433_2.png) [@snfaulkner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/snfaulkner)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2019, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-thats-not-an-emolument-i-dont-know-what-is/841919/12 "2019-10-17T23:44:48Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > The G7 summit in Doral isn’t until next June. Yes, I meant “in the future, open the books” Edit: to explicitly state the subtext, I don’t believe Trump would willing open his books. ---
**Author:** ![pool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pool/32/4152_2.png) [@pool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pool)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2019, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-thats-not-an-emolument-i-dont-know-what-is/841919/13 "2019-10-17T23:48:35Z")
I bet Trump will be trying to sell fucking golf club memberships during the entire summit, Jesus Christ. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2019, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-thats-not-an-emolument-i-dont-know-what-is/841919/14 "2019-10-17T23:49:28Z")
> [@snfaulkner](#): > > Yes, I meant “in the future, open the books” Uh, yeah, that was 100% clear. It’s not clear why anyone would decide to read it in a fashion that makes it nonsensical. My question: is there a chance greater than 0% that foreign leaders will decline to come to Trump’s resort for the conference? I think if I were a foreign leader, I’d be livid at the flagrant violation of international norms, norms heretofore unspoken, that **world leaders don’t try to personally profit off you when you visit their country**. ---
**Author:** ![Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b487fb/32.png) [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walken_After_Midnight)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2019, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-thats-not-an-emolument-i-dont-know-what-is/841919/15 "2019-10-17T23:54:05Z")
[Judge Napolitano](https://twitter.com/SpeakerPelosi/status/1184925740841816067) on FOX: “[Trump] has bought himself an enormous headache now with the choice of this. This is as about as direct and profound a violation of the emoluments clause as one could create.” ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2019, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-thats-not-an-emolument-i-dont-know-what-is/841919/16 "2019-10-18T00:39:10Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > Right. The selection itself is not a foreign emolument, if it is even an emolument at all. The foreign emolument is triggered when a foreign state actually pays Mr. Trump’s personal company for the privilege of attending an official state function. > If they are really operating at a loss, it’s debatable. But I don’t place any weight on a for-profit company’s claim that they accepted a government contract at a loss. I’m thinking about a Hollywood-style accounting “loss”. > > ~Max Educate me, please. Does it matter if the recipient of the emolument is operating at a loss? I didn’t happen to see that in the constitution, so, at the moment, my uneducated best guess is the answer is “Not at all”. Just because you’re a bad businessman doesn’t mean you get to violate the constitution. ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2019, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-thats-not-an-emolument-i-dont-know-what-is/841919/17 "2019-10-18T00:47:48Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > If they are really operating at a loss, it’s debatable. I don’t think it is debatable. The emoluments clause doesn’t say anything whatsoever about profitability. And arguably, setting aside the monetary compensation, there is some intangible value to the property that comes from the prestige of hosting the G7 convention. That’s not to say this is a smoking-gun emoluments violation. But profitability doesn’t figure into it at all. ---
**Author:** ![Sunny\_Daze](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sunny_daze/32/438_2.png) [@Sunny\_Daze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunny_Daze)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2019, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-thats-not-an-emolument-i-dont-know-what-is/841919/18 "2019-10-18T00:54:53Z")
> [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](#): > > [Judge Napolitano](https://twitter.com/SpeakerPelosi/status/1184925740841816067) on FOX: “[Trump] has bought himself an enormous headache now with the choice of this. This is as about as direct and profound a violation of the emoluments clause as one could create.” Thank you for sharing this. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2019, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-thats-not-an-emolument-i-dont-know-what-is/841919/19 "2019-10-18T03:03:56Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Is it the “attending an official state function” that’s the relevant distinction for you? Good catch, you can cut that out. “The foreign emolument is triggered when a foreign state actually pays Mr. Trump’s personal company[.]” ~Max ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2019, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-thats-not-an-emolument-i-dont-know-what-is/841919/20 "2019-10-18T03:08:49Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Given that the summit location was apparently selected by President Trump / the US government, is this a _foreign_ emolument? There’s a domestic emoluments clause, too. U.S. Const. art. II, sect. 1, cl. 7: _The President shall, at stated Times, receive for his Services, a Compensation, which shall neither be increased nor diminished during the Period for which he shall have been elected, and he shall not receive within that Period any other Emolument from the United States, or any of them._ ~Max [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-thats-not-an-emolument-i-dont-know-what-is/841919.md?page=2)