# If the Allies were able to rebuild the Europe and Japan after WWII what is so hard about Greece now? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 7, 2015, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-allies-were-able-to-rebuild-the-europe-and-japan-after-wwii-what-is-so-hard-about-greece-now/724505 "2015-07-07T20:53:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 16\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Hiker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/3be4f8/32.png) [@Hiker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hiker)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2015, 11:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-allies-were-able-to-rebuild-the-europe-and-japan-after-wwii-what-is-so-hard-about-greece-now/724505/41 "2015-07-09T11:14:11Z")
> [@DinoR](#): > > In 2013 they spent [2.5% of GDP](http://data.worldbank.org/indicator/MS.MIL.XPND.GD.ZS?order=wbapi_data_value_2014+wbapi_data_value+wbapi_data_value-last&sort=asc). Last year, despite shrinking GDP, cuts we stringent enough they ended up spending 2.2% of GDP. That’s less than the 2.3% of gross world product [being spent on the military worldwide](http://www.sipri.org/research/armaments/milex). It’s less than that militaristic power Ecuador spends at 2.7%. It’s only 10% over the NATO target of spending at least 2% of GDP on the military. > > That less sentence is the real heart of explaining perceptions about Greek military spending. The only reason their budget looks “amazingly large” is many of their NATO peers only pretend they are even going to attempt to meet their agreed upon obligations. That link you provided is interesting. However, I do not see how the comparison to Ecuador is relevant here. What I find more interesting is a look at the other “endangered” Eurozone members: Portugal - 1,8% Italy - 1,4% Ireland - 0,5% Spain - 0,9% It is not a huge difference, especially when you look at Portugal, so I would not go as far as calling Greece’s military budget “amazingly large”. But it does beg the question whether there might be some room for savings here. ---
**Author:** ![filmstar-en](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/50afbb/32.png) [@filmstar-en](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/filmstar-en)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2015, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-allies-were-able-to-rebuild-the-europe-and-japan-after-wwii-what-is-so-hard-about-greece-now/724505/42 "2015-07-09T20:44:38Z")
Here is a graph which compares Greek military spending with other European countries. [http://tinyurl.com/qdj27s2](http://tinyurl.com/qdj27s2) 3.2% in 2009! A lot of tanks, submarines and jet fighters…presumably, to keep up with their old enemy and NATO member, Turkey. Of course, it is also the case that military contracts are notoriously prone to secret deals, fat commissions and other ways of siphoning off money. On the other hand, who sold them this stuff and thereby kept their arms industries in business? Germany, UK, France, USA… > **[LePointInternational.com is for sale | HugeDomains](https://www.hugedomains.com/domain_profile.cfm?d=lepointinternational.com)** > > Find a domain name today. We make it easy. It has the whiff of political hypocrisy.:dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Deeg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/deeg/32/2955_2.png) [@Deeg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Deeg)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2015, 4:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-allies-were-able-to-rebuild-the-europe-and-japan-after-wwii-what-is-so-hard-about-greece-now/724505/43 "2015-07-10T04:35:51Z")
I haven’t seen it mentioned: one big difference is that Germany and Japan were occupied and their governments were dictated by the Allies (e.g. MacArthur wrote Japan’s constitution). The EU countries obviously have no such authority in Greece. If they did, I assume they’d be willing to fork over more money while simultaneously ending the poor fiscal policies of the Greek government. The crux of the matter appears to be that the Greeks won’t really reform unless they absolutely have to (if at all) and the EU countries won’t extend them any more money until they start showing some fiscal responsibility. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2015, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-allies-were-able-to-rebuild-the-europe-and-japan-after-wwii-what-is-so-hard-about-greece-now/724505/44 "2015-07-10T15:04:43Z")
> **[London Agreement on German External Debts](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_Agreement_on_German_External_Debts)** > > The London Agreement on German External Debts, also known as the London Debt Agreement (German: Londoner Schuldenabkommen), was a debt relief treaty between the Federal Republic of Germany and creditor nations. The Agreement was signed in London on 27 February 1953, and came into force on 16 September 1953. > > On 24 May 1951, the US and UK Departments of Foreign Affairs respectively, informed the Allied Countries involved in the settlement, about a new arrangement regarding Germany's External D... Germany’s repayment schedule was tied to it’s ability to pay. > [@](#): > > An important term of the agreement was that repayments were only due while West Germany ran a trade surplus, and that repayments were limited to 3% of export earnings. This gave Germany’s creditors a powerful incentive to import German goods, assisting reconstruction That part seems to often get left out of the Greek - German debt comparisons. But if we did that here, all those poor banks would have to wait for an improved Greek economy to get their money. Better to just slash pensions and give the banks that money. ---
**Author:** ![Donnerwetter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b2d939/32.png) [@Donnerwetter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Donnerwetter)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2015, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-allies-were-able-to-rebuild-the-europe-and-japan-after-wwii-what-is-so-hard-about-greece-now/724505/45 "2015-07-10T16:01:02Z")
Greece will never have a trade surplus before the second coming of the lord. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2015, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-allies-were-able-to-rebuild-the-europe-and-japan-after-wwii-what-is-so-hard-about-greece-now/724505/46 "2015-07-10T16:18:30Z")
> [@Deeg](#): > > The crux of the matter appears to be that the Greeks won’t really reform unless they absolutely have to (if at all) and the EU countries won’t extend them any more money until they start showing some fiscal responsibility. Well, truth be told this is kind of the answer. Germany and Japan has to be rebuilt because they were blown up. Greece isn’t blown up, it’s in debt. Greece’s problem is that it spends way, way more money than it earns. Germany’s problem was that it was psychotically destructive and had to be physically attacked to make them stop. Giving Greece more loans is sort of equivalent to giving Germany in 1945 more tanks and guns. The problem isn’t that they need more, it’s that they need to start doing something else. Loan FORGIVENESS is something of a different animal, but such things usually come with the condition that you can’t borrow more money. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2015, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-allies-were-able-to-rebuild-the-europe-and-japan-after-wwii-what-is-so-hard-about-greece-now/724505/47 "2015-07-10T16:22:57Z")
> [@Baron\_Greenback](#): > > Economic self-interest, and a bulwark against the Soviet Union. Both of which could still be arguments, really. Putin has been making bailout noises but I’m pretty sure he’s just trolling the West; it’s not like Russia has the money to burn. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2015, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-allies-were-able-to-rebuild-the-europe-and-japan-after-wwii-what-is-so-hard-about-greece-now/724505/48 "2015-07-10T16:27:25Z")
There’s other metrics to be used but you don’t need your PhD in Economics to know that you can’t get blood from a stone. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2015, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-allies-were-able-to-rebuild-the-europe-and-japan-after-wwii-what-is-so-hard-about-greece-now/724505/49 "2015-07-10T21:08:03Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > Having a large amount of young men out of work and with no prospects is always a recipe for an interesting few years in the future…and typicall the cure for fixing those interesting years is a lot more expensive then “throwing good money after bad”. That’s not really a concern here since modern immigration standards in the EU and even for just EEA countries allows Greeks to leave the country to find work–and many have, and will continue to do so. This isn’t the 1930s where their only option is signing up with Hitler. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2015, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-allies-were-able-to-rebuild-the-europe-and-japan-after-wwii-what-is-so-hard-about-greece-now/724505/50 "2015-07-10T21:10:32Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > There’s other metrics to be used but you don’t need your PhD in Economics to know that you can’t get blood from a stone. Greece is more akin to a farmer sitting on fields that he refuses to plant using accepted methods and techniques, and whose fields have thus became unprofitable or fallen fallow. He’s been given money to help fix his practices, but then decided to spend it all on creature comforts and ignore the problems with his farm. Now he wants more money and doesn’t want to promise in any way that he might fix his business so that it might some day be a going concern. Of course, the events of the last days have indicated Tsipras is actually willing to implement the needed reforms…he just wanted more money from the EU to do it. I would’ve thought a play for a bigger rescue package in exchange for giving the EU everything it was asking for (which is what Tispras’s proposal amounts to) could’ve been negotiated without the fuss and drama of a referendum, but apparently not. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2015, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-allies-were-able-to-rebuild-the-europe-and-japan-after-wwii-what-is-so-hard-about-greece-now/724505/51 "2015-07-10T21:40:40Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > Greece is more akin to a farmer sitting on fields that he refuses to plant using accepted methods and techniques, and whose fields have thus became unprofitable or fallen fallow. He’s been given money to help fix his practices, but then decided to spend it all on creature comforts and ignore the problems with his farm. Now he wants more money and doesn’t want to promise in any way that he might fix his business so that it might some day be a going concern.t. Yeah, that’s the narrative Ive heard a billion times. Thanks for repeating it again. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2015, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-allies-were-able-to-rebuild-the-europe-and-japan-after-wwii-what-is-so-hard-about-greece-now/724505/52 "2015-07-14T14:24:19Z")
Sometimes if you hear something repeated over and over again the same way it’s because it’s a good reflection of reality. Greece’s problems are pretty well understood. The only real controversial stuff relates to debt forgiveness and austerity. Most economists think that Germany’s positions on both are not helpful and reflect a simplistic and non-mainstream view of economics. Germany’s economists and their position on debt is actually at odds with basically the entire world’s economic establishment. But the problems of Greece aren’t really in dispute, and while there is considerable debate about whether Germany’s prescriptions are a good idea there is really no dispute that a country with the highest tax avoidance in the EU (and one of the highest in the world), with a GDP that is contracting again, with wildly unsustainable pension structure, and with a toxic business environment needs structural changes or no amount of money can fix it. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2015, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-allies-were-able-to-rebuild-the-europe-and-japan-after-wwii-what-is-so-hard-about-greece-now/724505/53 "2015-07-14T15:17:14Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > Sometimes if you hear something repeated over and over again the same way it’s because it’s a good reflection of reality. Greece’s problems are pretty well understood. The only real controversial stuff relates to debt forgiveness and austerity. Most economists think that Germany’s positions on both are not helpful and reflect a simplistic and non-mainstream view of economics. > > Germany’s economists and their position on debt is actually at odds with basically the entire world’s economic establishment. But the problems of Greece aren’t really in dispute, and while there is considerable debate about whether Germany’s prescriptions are a good idea there is really no dispute that a country with the highest tax avoidance in the EU (and one of the highest in the world), with a GDP that is contracting again, with wildly unsustainable pension structure, and with a toxic business environment needs structural changes or no amount of money can fix it. Uh, ok. Then are the German demands NOT the farmer’s accepted method and techniques he refuses to plant his field with? What is our hapless farmer supposed to be doing then? Where do the 7 austerity packages fit in your parable of the foolish farmer? The fallow fields are a metaphor for 50% youth unemployment? Please map out your metaphor a little. “Doing Business” reports a steady improvement in the business environment. In 2012 they named Greece to the top ten improved. Greece has slashed pensions by 30%, raised the retirement age and upped the minimum contribution years. Did your farmer do all that? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2015, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-allies-were-able-to-rebuild-the-europe-and-japan-after-wwii-what-is-so-hard-about-greece-now/724505/54 "2015-07-14T15:40:11Z")
The best approach might be to _let_ Russia muscle in, and then bankrupt itself trying to pull Greece into its sphere. You’d have to make all kinds of public lamentations, “Oh, no, we _can’t_ let Russia get involved!” while privately thinking “heh heh heh… _do_ it, Vladimir.” ---
**Author:** ![SeniorCitizen007](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8baadc/32.png) [@SeniorCitizen007](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SeniorCitizen007)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2015, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-allies-were-able-to-rebuild-the-europe-and-japan-after-wwii-what-is-so-hard-about-greece-now/724505/55 "2015-07-14T18:52:09Z")
The left-wingers in the Greek government dream about a ‘Socialist Europe’ … A European-wide “Eat The Rich” revolution. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2015, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-allies-were-able-to-rebuild-the-europe-and-japan-after-wwii-what-is-so-hard-about-greece-now/724505/56 "2015-07-14T21:02:27Z")
> [@SeniorCitizen007](#): > > The left-wingers in the Greek government dream about a ‘Socialist Europe’ … A European-wide “Eat The Rich” revolution. They might be right to. > [@](#): > > **Einhorn Says Europe Letting Greece Collapse to Stop Populism** > > “Europe is unwilling to allow Syriza a face-saving compromise, even if that means Greece collapses and the rest of Europe suffers,” Einhorn wrote in a letter to investors on Monday obtained by Bloomberg. > > \ > > “Syriza has capitulated by proposing a deal which leaves Greece with even more austerity than when negotiations began and no actual debt forgiveness,” Einhorn wrote. “This might not be enough, as the grand goal of the European negotiators appears to be to discourage other countries from electing populists.” > > SOURCE: [Einhorn Says Europe Letting Greece Collapse to Stop Populism - Bloomberg](http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-07-13/einhorn-says-europe-allowing-greece-collapse-to-fight-populists) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-allies-were-able-to-rebuild-the-europe-and-japan-after-wwii-what-is-so-hard-about-greece-now/724505.md?page=2)