# If the CBS documents are shown to be fraudulent, should CBS produce their source? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 14, 2004, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-cbs-documents-are-shown-to-be-fraudulent-should-cbs-produce-their-source/264459 "2004-09-14T19:50:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2004, 7:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-cbs-documents-are-shown-to-be-fraudulent-should-cbs-produce-their-source/264459/81 "2004-09-18T07:07:01Z")
That’s only because **Sam** thinks _every_ media outlet that doesn’t unerringly toe the Bush Administration’s line is “run by staunch Kerry supporters at every level.” :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![jshore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b5e925/32.png) [@jshore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jshore)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2004, 12:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-cbs-documents-are-shown-to-be-fraudulent-should-cbs-produce-their-source/264459/82 "2004-09-18T12:06:10Z")
> [@Hail Ants](#): > > Ya know, I think this has to be a lot bigger than people think. I don’t believe CBS was duped. I believe CBS (or rather those directly responsible for the story) **deliberately perpetrated a hoax** less than two months before the election. I think they expected that almost all of the Bush-hating media would see this and just play along (and to a disturbingly large degree some have!) > > Reason I think this is not just the standard ‘liberal media’ thing, but because of everything that’s been said here, namely that these are **mind-numbingly incompetent, obvious forgeries!** Even if the CBS reporters behind this story are Bush-hating liberals I find it hard to believe anyone with even a remote background in journalism wouldn’t be able to recognize a modern, MS Word document. Okay, let’s see if I follow your logic here. The “liberal media” at CBS deliberately perpetrates a hoax in order to help Kerry, a hoax that is so obviously a hoaxthat is bound to be discovered? Well, hey, that makes perfect sense to me! :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![jshore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b5e925/32.png) [@jshore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jshore)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2004, 12:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-cbs-documents-are-shown-to-be-fraudulent-should-cbs-produce-their-source/264459/83 "2004-09-18T12:08:05Z")
Oh, and I might add that they did it 2 months before the election rather than say the weekend before, giving plenty of time for the authenticity of the papers to be investigated? ---
**Author:** ![Uncommon\_Sense](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Uncommon\_Sense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uncommon_Sense)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2004, 1:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-cbs-documents-are-shown-to-be-fraudulent-should-cbs-produce-their-source/264459/84 "2004-09-18T13:07:35Z")
> [@jshore](#): > > Okay, let’s see if I follow your logic here. The “liberal media” at CBS deliberately perpetrates a hoax in order to help Kerry, a hoax that is so obviously a hoaxthat is bound to be discovered? Well, hey, that makes perfect sense to me! :rolleyes: You’d think if it was so obvious they would not have ran it with such enthusiastic embarrassment to follow. And the timing had nothing to do with it. They got the ‘memo’ and had to choose to run it or trash it. If they sat on it till weeks before the election then they would certainly been accused of partisan reporting via strategic release of material. Certainly, a week of vigorous fraud testing would have been OK. ---
**Author:** ![Uncommon\_Sense](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Uncommon\_Sense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uncommon_Sense)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2004, 1:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-cbs-documents-are-shown-to-be-fraudulent-should-cbs-produce-their-source/264459/85 "2004-09-18T13:14:39Z")
Quote: Hmm, would Fox News, a network that has a track record of political bias and is run by staunch Bush supporters at every level, be treated differently from CBS? You bet. For good reason. As opposed to the mainstream media, which is run by staunch Kerry supporters at every level? The mainstream media that was in such a rush to find dirt on Bush that it got duped into putting obvious forgeries on the air? The difference between Fox and the rest…Fox doesn’t try to hide their bias. They try to report fairly, but everyone knows and admits that they’re looking through conservative glasses. They signed on as the alternative to the big three because there was a demand for an alternative to the liberal slant of coverage all the time. ---
**Author:** ![Uncommon\_Sense](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Uncommon\_Sense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uncommon_Sense)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2004, 1:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-cbs-documents-are-shown-to-be-fraudulent-should-cbs-produce-their-source/264459/86 "2004-09-18T13:16:28Z")
Allow me… > [@](#): > > Hmm, would Fox News, a network that has a track record of political bias and is run by staunch Bush supporters at every level, be treated differently from CBS? You bet. For good reason. > [@Sam](#): > > As opposed to the mainstream media, which is run by staunch Kerry supporters at every level? The mainstream media that was in such a rush to find dirt on Bush that it got duped into putting obvious forgeries on the air? The difference between Fox and the rest…Fox doesn’t try to hide their bias. They try to report fairly, but everyone knows and admits that they’re looking through conservative glasses. They signed on as the alternative to the big three because there was a demand for an alternative to the liberal slant of coverage all the time. [/QUOTE] ---
**Author:** ![chappachula](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/d2c977/32.png) [@chappachula](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chappachula)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2004, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-cbs-documents-are-shown-to-be-fraudulent-should-cbs-produce-their-source/264459/87 "2004-09-18T18:29:32Z")
> [@spooje](#): > > And CBS giving up it’s source will not help them. It can only hurt. It would be a PR disaster in the realm of journalism. do you mean that: " No conscientious journalist would rat out a forger. Imagine the damage that would do to the profession. Forgers might never talk to reporters again." the above quote is from the Wall Street Journal.And it is absolutely on target. ---
**Author:** ![Ms2001](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ms2001/32/18463_2.png) [@Ms2001](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ms2001)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2004, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-cbs-documents-are-shown-to-be-fraudulent-should-cbs-produce-their-source/264459/88 "2004-09-18T21:27:12Z")
> [@Uncommon Sense](#): > > The difference between Fox and the rest…Fox doesn’t try to hide their bias. They try to report fairly, but everyone knows and admits that they’re looking through conservative glasses. By “everyone”, you mean “everyone but Fox themselves”, right? Why would they call themselves fair and balanced if they’re not trying to hide their bias? No, I think the difference between Fox and the rest is that Fox doesn’t try to _avoid_ being biased. (That and they don’t try to distinguish between news and opinion coverage.) > [@chappachula](#): > > do you mean that: > " No conscientious journalist would rat out a forger. Imagine the damage that would do to the profession. Forgers might never talk to reporters again." > the above quote is from the Wall Street Journal.And it is absolutely on target. Ah, that must be why Novak won’t release his source: No conscientious journalist would rat out a traitor. Traitors might never talk to reporters again. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2004, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-cbs-documents-are-shown-to-be-fraudulent-should-cbs-produce-their-source/264459/89 "2004-09-18T21:35:39Z")
I guess all that stuff about kerning and superscripts has finally sunk in at the white house. Now even the president is suggesting that the memos may not be real: > [@](#): > > “There are a lot of questions about the documents and they need to be answered,” Bush told the Union Leader newspaper of Manchester, New Hampshire, after a week in which some experts questioned whether the documents had been fabricated by those seeking to damage Bush in his re-election race. > > “I think what needs to happen is people need to take a look at the documents, how they were created, and let the truth come out,” Bush added. [Bush Raises Questions About CBS Documents](http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=584&e=1&u=/nm/20040918/pl_nm/campaign_cbs_dc) Of course Bush _knew_ that all along didn’t he? I mean, if he were that much of a pain in the ass in the TANG, he’d have remembered, wouldn’t he? He just let the bloggers and the typographers rip into the memos this past week, so that they could learn for themselves how nobly he deported himself back in 72’. Except that we still don’t know how nobly he deported himself, and it appears that the white house had real fears that the memos were the real deal. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2004, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-cbs-documents-are-shown-to-be-fraudulent-should-cbs-produce-their-source/264459/90 "2004-09-18T22:20:53Z")
> [@chappachula](#): > > do you mean that: > " No conscientious journalist would rat out a forger. Imagine the damage that would do to the profession. Forgers might never talk to reporters again." > the above quote is from the Wall Street Journal.And it is absolutely on target. Once again, just so we all get the point, let’s go tit for tat: " No conscientious journalist would rat out a treasonous scandalmonger. Imagine the damage that would do to the profession. Treasonous scandalmongers like the ones that outed Plame might never talk to reporters again." ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2004, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-cbs-documents-are-shown-to-be-fraudulent-should-cbs-produce-their-source/264459/91 "2004-09-18T22:21:54Z")
I am sorry, on edit I see that Mr. 2001 beat me to the punch. ---
**Author:** ![Brutus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/91b2a8/32.png) [@Brutus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brutus)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2004, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-cbs-documents-are-shown-to-be-fraudulent-should-cbs-produce-their-source/264459/92 "2004-09-18T22:26:17Z")
[Burkett coordination with the Kerry camp?](http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A30043-2004Sep17?language=printer) This could get good! Did I mention how much I _love_ watching this backfire on the dems? ---
**Author:** ![Ms2001](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ms2001/32/18463_2.png) [@Ms2001](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ms2001)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2004, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-cbs-documents-are-shown-to-be-fraudulent-should-cbs-produce-their-source/264459/93 "2004-09-18T23:07:02Z")
> [@Brutus](#): > > [Burkett coordination with the Kerry camp?](http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A30043-2004Sep17?language=printer) This could get good! Hmm, you sure you underlined the right words? The only bit in the article about coordination with the Dems suggests that there was no coordination. (Though, if you’re the kind of person who sees a “relationship” when ObL asks Saddam to do something and Saddam refuses, I guess you’d see a “relationship” here too.) If that is the guy who supplied the CBS documents, and if he typed them up himself, I wonder how he managed to come up with all the same information that Knox typed 30 years ago. ---
**Author:** ![pervert](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/bbe5ce/32.png) [@pervert](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pervert)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2004, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-cbs-documents-are-shown-to-be-fraudulent-should-cbs-produce-their-source/264459/94 "2004-09-18T23:26:29Z")
> [@Mr2001](#): > > …I wonder how he managed to come up with all the same information that Knox typed 30 years ago. Unless maybe the memos don’t reflect the same information knox typed 30 years ago. shhhhh! ---
**Author:** ![pervert](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/bbe5ce/32.png) [@pervert](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pervert)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2004, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-cbs-documents-are-shown-to-be-fraudulent-should-cbs-produce-their-source/264459/95 "2004-09-18T23:30:59Z")
I haven’t read this whole thread, and I don’t think I will. But are you guys actually suggesting that the CBS memo scandal is proof or an example of _Conservative Media Bias_? The mind boggles. ---
**Author:** ![pervert](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/bbe5ce/32.png) [@pervert](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pervert)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2004, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-cbs-documents-are-shown-to-be-fraudulent-should-cbs-produce-their-source/264459/96 "2004-09-18T23:41:20Z")
> [@Evil Captor](#): > > Once again, just so we all get the point, let’s go tit for tat: > > " No conscientious journalist would rat out a treasonous scandalmonger. Imagine the damage that would do to the profession. Treasonous scandalmongers like the ones that outed Plame might never talk to reporters again." Yes, well, lieing to a reporter and telling him something he should not know are two entirely different things. One of them reporters like to encourage and defend. The other they don’t. The morality of the tattler is irrelevant. The morality of the information is irrelevant. Heck, even the morality of publishing the information is irrelelvant. The only things that matter are the timelyness and accuracy of the information. The Plaim ---
**Author:** ![Ms2001](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ms2001/32/18463_2.png) [@Ms2001](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ms2001)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2004, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-cbs-documents-are-shown-to-be-fraudulent-should-cbs-produce-their-source/264459/97 "2004-09-18T23:57:06Z")
> [@pervert](#): > > Unless maybe the memos don’t reflect the same information knox typed 30 years ago. shhhhh! Well hey, if you don’t trust Knox to describe the content of her memos, why trust her to describe the typewriters she used? Maybe she really had an Executive or Selectric Composer in her office, typed the CBS memos 30 years ago, and just can’t stop lying about it. :rolleyes: > [@](#): > > I haven’t read this whole thread, and I don’t think I will. But are you guys actually suggesting that the CBS memo scandal is proof or an example of Conservative Media Bias? I don’t think anyone is suggesting that. > [@](#): > > Yes, well, lieing to a reporter and telling him something he should not know are two entirely different things. Indeed. One of them gets people killed and damages our intelligence-gathering capabilities; the other does not. > [@](#): > > One of them reporters like to encourage and defend. The other they don’t. It seems that some reporters like to defend both of them, don’t you think? And for good reason, IMO, as I’ve explained previously. ---
**Author:** ![pervert](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/bbe5ce/32.png) [@pervert](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pervert)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2004, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-cbs-documents-are-shown-to-be-fraudulent-should-cbs-produce-their-source/264459/98 "2004-09-19T00:17:15Z")
> [@Mr2001](#): > > Well hey, if you don’t trust Knox to describe the content of her memos, why trust her to describe the typewriters she used? Maybe she really had an Executive or Selectric Composer in her office, typed the CBS memos 30 years ago, and just can’t stop lying about it. :rolleyes: But this is just the point. Its not that she can’t stop lying about it, its that she has suddenly remembered it. Especially that she just remembered it after CBS needed confirmation that the memos were real. Where was she 10 years ago? > [@](#): > > Indeed. One of them gets people killed and damages our intelligence-gathering capabilities; the other does not. Well, the other _did_ not. Lying to reporters leading them to lie to the public certainly could. > [@](#): > > It seems that some reporters like to defend both of them, don’t you think? No. Not really. Most reporters don’t like being lied to. I’ve seen a few reporters say that lying sources should be protected. But I’ve also seen them say that lying voids the source confidentiality agreement, so to speak. > [@](#): > > And for good reason, IMO, as I’ve explained previously. No, again, not really. Your reasoning amounts to saying that revealing those who lie will cause some who tell the truth not to tell the truth. Even if true, I think the other barriers to going to the press with some truth are far greater, and revealing one lying source will not result in any great derth of whistleblowers. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2004, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-cbs-documents-are-shown-to-be-fraudulent-should-cbs-produce-their-source/264459/99 "2004-09-19T00:19:17Z")
> [@Dubya](#): > > I think what needs to happen is people need to take a look at the documents, how they were created, and let the truth come out How about just releasing all your service records _yourself_, George? Tell us all about your drunken years and how you reformed? Just get it all over with, knowhutimean? > [@Uncommon Sense](#): > > Fox doesn’t try to hide their bias. They try to report fairly Did they drop the “Balanced” part from their motto yet? Not AFAIK. > [@](#): > > As opposed to the mainstream media, which is run by staunch Kerry supporters at every level? Cite from either one of you? ---
**Author:** ![pervert](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/bbe5ce/32.png) [@pervert](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pervert)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2004, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-cbs-documents-are-shown-to-be-fraudulent-should-cbs-produce-their-source/264459/100 "2004-09-19T00:20:11Z")
> [@Mr2001](#): > > Well hey, if you don’t trust Knox to describe the content of her memos, … Perhpas I missed it. Didn’t she also say that they were not her memos? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-cbs-documents-are-shown-to-be-fraudulent-should-cbs-produce-their-source/264459.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-cbs-documents-are-shown-to-be-fraudulent-should-cbs-produce-their-source/264459.md?page=6)