# If the Democratic party dies, who's next? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 6, 2006, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-democratic-party-dies-whos-next/347280 "2006-03-06T19:13:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 13\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2006, 5:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-democratic-party-dies-whos-next/347280/21 "2006-03-07T05:23:56Z")
[QUOTE=Sam Stone] I think both parties are royally screwed up, but both have gerrymandered and campaign-financed their way into permanent two-party status. And since they are barely answerable to the voters any more, both are becoming more and more corrupt and more and more wedded to the special interests that keep the gravy train rolling with campaign donations and kickbacks. [/QUOTE] Is it the same way in Canada? (Serious question.) ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2006, 5:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-democratic-party-dies-whos-next/347280/22 "2006-03-07T05:39:07Z")
Not really. We routinely see massive swings in seats during elections. The last PC government was virtually wiped out when it lost. In the U.S., how many incumbents lose in the house in a given election? A handful. Most are elected with more than 55% of the vote. Many, many politicians have survived decades in office. It’s as close to a lifetime job as you’ll find in politics, so long as you don’t get indicted or wind up one of the unfortunates in a key state for the other party where massive resources are brought against you and a superstar candidate is parachuted in or found locally. In the next election, only about 5% of the seats in the house are even competitive. Of those, maybe half will switch parties. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2006, 5:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-democratic-party-dies-whos-next/347280/23 "2006-03-07T05:59:18Z")
[QUOTE=Sam Stone] In the U.S., how many incumbents lose in the house in a given election? A handful. [/QUOTE] Just to back this up, if I may quote the March 6 edition of The New Yorker: > [@](#): > > Outside Texas [where Republicans redrew the electoral map between 2002 and 2004], only two incumbents lost in the 2004 congressional elections, and only in twenty-one seats did the winner have less than fifty-five percent of the vote. Although Wikipedia seems to show three losing incumbents. Either way, handful. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2006, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-democratic-party-dies-whos-next/347280/24 "2006-03-07T19:36:33Z")
[QUOTE=Sam Stone] Not really. We routinely see massive swings in seats during elections. The last PC government was virtually wiped out when it lost. [/QUOTE] Why are incumbents so much more secure in the U.S. than in Canada? Is there anything different about our election laws? Or is it simply a difference in political culture? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2006, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-democratic-party-dies-whos-next/347280/25 "2006-03-07T19:38:13Z")
BTW, if the Dems die, it is just possible the Working Families Party (which, at present, exists as an active organization only at the state level in New York, Connecticut and Oregon) will step into their shoes. > **[Working Families Party](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Working_Families_Party)** > > The Working Families Party (WFP) is a progressive minor political party in the United States. WFP promotes for economic progressivism, left-wing populism, and cultural liberalism. WFP was organized in 1998 as a successor to the New Party by a coalition of labor unions including CWA and SEIU, advocacy groups including Citizen Action, and community organizations including ACORN. Founded in New York, WFP has active chapters in nearly two dozen states. WFP has statewide ballot access in Connecticut... > **[Working Families Party - Fighting for an America that works for the many, not...](https://workingfamilies.org/)** > > WFP is building a political home for all of us who see bigotry, bailouts, and business as usual in our political system and ask, "Is that the best we can do?" ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2006, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-democratic-party-dies-whos-next/347280/26 "2006-03-07T20:26:52Z")
Look, all these third parties, the Greens, Labor, the Libertarians, the Socialist Workers Party, the Sunshine and Puppydog Party, and god knows what else, are non-entities. Most of these “parties” are pretty much one guy in a basement with a typewriter and a xerox machine and a webpage. It’s what they do instead of watch sports on TV. There might be more libertarians, but they aren’t ever going to be a viable party, because most capital L Libertarians are cranks for whom fine points of dogma are more important than creating a movement. The Democratic Party isn’t going anywhere. If the Democratic party implodes there won’t be a “coalition” of third parties forming an alternative, because all those third parties put together won’t make up 1% of the voters. An imploded, absolutely destroyed and discredited Democratic party would still be more than 20% of the voters, just by inertia. It would be taken over and reborn as a new party with the same name. Look at the Republican party. How much resemblance does today’s southern, religious convervative pro-business party have with Lincoln’s northern liberal antislavery party? Heck, how much does today’s southern conservative Republican party resemble the northern liberal Republican party of the 1950s? If we ever do have a third party destroy one of the major parties it is much more likely to be a new creation like the Reform Party rather than a growth in popularity of one of these basement parties. And why is that? Because anyone who doesn’t agree with the platform of either major party who has any political talent or ambition or desire to actually govern will never ever ever in a million years join one of these fringe parties. They’ll join one of the major parties that they disagree with least and be a “maverick”. There are plenty of people in office who routinely vote against their party. Anyone who actually wants to govern, who wants to hold office, who wants to win elections, will join a major party and try to change the major party to suit them, rather than join a minor party they agree with 100%. And let’s face it, a reasonable person isn’t going to find one of those hypothetical minor parties that they agree with 100%, because these minor parties have decidedly minority platforms. Reasonable people join a major party, cranks form a minor party. The trouble with joining the Libertarian party is that you’ll be surrounded by Libertarian cranks. The trouble with joining the Socialist Workers Party is that you’ll be surrounded by Socialist cranks. If you want to find reasonable libertarians or socialists you won’t find them in the Libertarian party or the Socialist party. Sure it’s circular…no reasonable people want to join a crank party, so the crank parties are full of cranks rather than reasonable people, which means that reasonable people don’t want to join them. Positive feedback loop. ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2006, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-democratic-party-dies-whos-next/347280/27 "2006-03-07T20:35:09Z")
As my own personal guess I’d say a more reactionary party would come to replace them if that ever happened. Something more to the left of the current democrats. I feel one of the reasons support for the democrats is wavering is because many want to be republican light. They are abandoning and going soft on many of the core principles of liberalism, so if another party took over it would be more dedicated to them the same way the republicans developed a very core based party in the 90s. I don’t see libertarianism going anywhere anytime soon as people aren’t willing to give up federal aid and state aid. Social libertarianism sure, but not economic. But its not going to happen anytime soon. What is worth asking is how has this happened before? There are no whigs in the US anymore. > **[List of political parties in the United States](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_political_parties_in_the_United_States#Historical_political_parties)** > > This list of political parties in the United States identifies notable political parties in the United States, both past and present, both major and minor. Notes: Both major parties below have ballot access in all 50 states and the District of Columbia. > @media screen and (min-width:640px){.mw-parser-output .sticky-header\>thead\>tr:first-child,.mw-parser-output .sticky-header\>caption+tbody\>tr:first-child,.mw-parser-output .sticky-header\>tbody:first-child\>tr:first-child,.mw-parser-output .sticky... ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2006, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-democratic-party-dies-whos-next/347280/28 "2006-03-07T20:47:14Z")
[QUOTE=Lemur866] If the Democratic party implodes there won’t be a “coalition” of third parties forming an alternative, because all those third parties put together won’t make up 1% of the voters. [/quote] In terms of their current active membership, no. But they might **appeal** to a great many voters. [QUOTE=Lemur866] Sure it’s circular…no reasonable people want to join a crank party, so the crank parties are full of cranks rather than reasonable people, which means that reasonable people don’t want to join them. Positive feedback loop. [/QUOTE] But that “crankiness” does not apply to the Working Families Party, if you’ll investigate. Nor to the Labor Party, feeble as it is. Nor even to the (larger branch of) the Greens. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2006, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-democratic-party-dies-whos-next/347280/29 "2006-03-08T03:32:00Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] Why are incumbents so much more secure in the U.S. than in Canada? Is there anything different about our election laws? Or is it simply a difference in political culture? [/QUOTE] A big factor is Gerrymandering. In the U.S., electoral district boundaries are decided by the elected officials themselves. Frankly, I think this is insanity. Imagine you are an incumbent Democrat, and I’m an incumbent Republican. My district has a pesky area of liberals which votes Republican, and makes it difficult for me to win election. You have some pesky conservatives in yours. So we get together and come up with a plan - we’ll re-draw the two districts so that your conservatives wind up in mine, and my liberals wind up in yours. Voila - two districts that are now much more likely to vote for the incumbents (us), while leaving the liberal/conservative seat split the same. This type of wheeling and dealing has gone on all across the country, with the effect that U.S. districts are often bizarre zig-zaggy lines that run all over the place willy-nilly, picking up areas of voters that are of like minds. So you get ‘safe’ Democratic seats, and ‘safe’ liberal seats. [Here are some fun examples](http://www.westmiller.com/fairvote2k/in_gerry.htm). Compare those to [Edmonton voting districts](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Edmonton_East.png). In other countries, there are generally bipartisan or non-political bodies that determine electoral boundaries. For example, the U.K. has the Boundary Commissions, which get together from time to time to re-examine political districts as population shifts. They put together their set of recommendations for new boundaries, and Parliament can either accept them or reject them, but not amend them. In Canada, Elections Canada is responsible for maintaining electoral boundaries, and they act in a nonpartisan fashion with well-defined rules. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2006, 3:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-democratic-party-dies-whos-next/347280/30 "2006-03-08T03:42:08Z")
[QUOTE=Sam Stone] A big factor is Gerrymandering. In the U.S., electoral district boundaries are decided by the elected officials themselves. Frankly, I think this is insanity. [/QUOTE] Insanity doesn’t begin to cover it. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2006, 4:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-democratic-party-dies-whos-next/347280/31 "2006-03-08T04:20:46Z")
> [@Sam Stone](#): > > My district has a pesky area of liberals which votes Republican, I meant liberals which vote Democrat. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2006, 4:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-democratic-party-dies-whos-next/347280/32 "2006-03-08T04:32:00Z")
In Florida this November, we’ll be voting on a state constitutional amendment that would have the redistricting done by an independent commission of non-officeholders.\* See [http://www.committeeforfairelections.com/](http://www.committeeforfairelections.com/). \*It would be composed as follows: 3 members nominated by the majority party in the state Senate. 3 members nominated by the minority party in the state Senate. 3 members nominated by the majority party in the state House of Representatives. 3 members nominated by the minority party in the state House of Representatives. 3 members nominated by the state Supreme Court, from a list of nominees provided by the state’s five appellate District Courts; all of whom must be persons who in the previous two years have been registered voters – but not registered with either major party. So, in effect, a board of 6 Democrats, 6 Republicans, and 3 independents. And ten members must agree on any redistricting plan. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2006, 5:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-democratic-party-dies-whos-next/347280/33 "2006-03-08T05:04:37Z")
Of course, Arnold tried an amendment like that in California and the voters didn’t buy it. But maybe that was because they didn’t trust the salesman. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-democratic-party-dies-whos-next/347280.md?page=1)