# If the Holy See is a sovereign nation, are priests the agents of a foreign govt? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [August 18, 2005, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-holy-see-is-a-sovereign-nation-are-priests-the-agents-of-a-foreign-govt/317606 "2005-08-18T17:01:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 7\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![toadspittle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c0e974/32.png) [@toadspittle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/toadspittle)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2005, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-holy-see-is-a-sovereign-nation-are-priests-the-agents-of-a-foreign-govt/317606/1 "2005-08-18T17:01:43Z")
[http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/national/apeurope\_story.asp?category=1103&slug=Vatican%20Pope%20Sued](http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/national/apeurope_story.asp?category=1103&slug=Vatican%20Pope%20Sued) The pope is considered a foreign head of state–which makes sense if you consider that the Vatican is a sovereign nation-state. But that raises the question: what of everyone else in the Catholic Church? Are priests in the USA agents of a foreign govt.? Do they have/could they get dual citizenship? The fact that the Catholic Church is the only church that also owns/runs a country makes the situation different from any other church in the world–those are just NGOs. Never really thought about it before (and I’m not interested in discussing the sex-abuse issue), and just though the whole political situation was potentially fascinating. ---
**Author:** ![Cliffy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/59ef9b/32.png) [@Cliffy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cliffy)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2005, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-holy-see-is-a-sovereign-nation-are-priests-the-agents-of-a-foreign-govt/317606/2 "2005-08-18T17:04:53Z")
Vatican City is technically a sovreign nation, but that doesn’t mean that everyone who works for the RCC is a citizen or agent of the government, anymore than the people who sweep up at the U.S. embassy in Saudi Arabia are citizens or agents of the U.S. –Cliffy ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2005, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-holy-see-is-a-sovereign-nation-are-priests-the-agents-of-a-foreign-govt/317606/3 "2005-08-18T17:28:11Z")
No, only a very few people are citizens of the VC. (I seem to recall this number is limited by the agreement with Italy that set up the VC.) So the Papal Nuncio (the Pope’s Ambassador) is working for the VC and is usually a citizen, but the average workaday priest certainly is not. The average priest works for the local Archbishop who usually is a citizen of the host nation. (Usually, but many nations must now import priests.) He in turn works for local cardinal (who again is usually a local national, although he is often called a 'Prince of the Church). The cardinals answer to the Pope, although they generally have a national or regional organization. So anyway, no. The organization is so loose that the Pope cannot order around local parishes and expect things to happen. ---
**Author:** ![Schnitte](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/schnitte/32/9033_2.png) [@Schnitte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Schnitte)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2005, 10:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-holy-see-is-a-sovereign-nation-are-priests-the-agents-of-a-foreign-govt/317606/4 "2005-08-20T10:14:15Z")
The Holy See isn’t a sovereign nation; Vatican City is. The Holy See is an actor in international law - it has capacity to enter treaties and maintain diplomatic relations to other countries, but it’s not a nation, it’s the supreme authority of the Catholic Church. Vatican City is the nation where the seat of the Holy See is located. The terms “Holy See” and “Vatican City” are often used synonymously, but technically there’s the difference described. See [Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holy_See) for details. Regarding citizenship, Vatican City is the only nation that only issues diplomatic passports, not ordinary ones. ---
**Author:** ![Mathochist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c89c15/32.png) [@Mathochist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mathochist)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2005, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-holy-see-is-a-sovereign-nation-are-priests-the-agents-of-a-foreign-govt/317606/5 "2005-08-20T14:28:21Z")
> [@Paul in Saudi](#): > > The average priest works for the local Archbishop who usually is a citizen of the host nation. (Usually, but many nations must now import priests.) He in turn works for local cardinal (who again is usually a local national, although he is often called a 'Prince of the Church). The cardinals answer to the Pope, although they generally have a national or regional organization. Nitpick here: you give the impression that cardinals are, in some sense, “above” archbishops in a direct line. While many – if not most – Americans believe this, it’s simply not true. Cardinals are deacons, priests, and bishops of the Holy See. Many Cardinal-priests are also metropolitan archbishops, but many are not and most metropolitan archbishops are not Cardinals. It’s not a tree like you seem to describe. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2005, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-holy-see-is-a-sovereign-nation-are-priests-the-agents-of-a-foreign-govt/317606/6 "2005-08-20T14:46:51Z")
> [@Schnitte](#): > > Regarding citizenship, Vatican City is the only nation that only issues diplomatic passports, not ordinary ones. Also the only one with no native-born citizens. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2005, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-holy-see-is-a-sovereign-nation-are-priests-the-agents-of-a-foreign-govt/317606/7 "2005-08-20T15:35:32Z")
What it comes down to, is that there is a legal distinction between the Vatican State _government_ offices and the RCChurch _religious_ offices, even if the Holy See heads _both_. The Pope simultaneously holds the roles of Head of State, Head of Government, and High Priest, but (most) priests are his agents only in the latter role. Most priests are NOT paid by the Holy See but by their diocese or of their Order or Congregation – unless they are actually appointed to a Holy See position.