# If the internet went down permanently would it be a net gain, or a net loss? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 25, 2023, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-internet-went-down-permanently-would-it-be-a-net-gain-or-a-net-loss/987580 "2023-07-25T21:38:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2023, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-internet-went-down-permanently-would-it-be-a-net-gain-or-a-net-loss/987580/42 "2023-07-26T13:41:48Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > What if we limit it to the public web, and give the world five years to prepare? Maybe worse for many people; 5 years notice gives governments time to make noises about how it’s all someone else’s fault (especially foreigners and immigrants), and to enact measures (like rationing, curfews, states of emergency, military rule, whatever) that limit the extent to which the plebians can prepare, at the same time as the powerful people making the rules feather their own nests as completely as they can. ---
**Author:** ![Dr\_Paprika](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr_paprika/32/3042_2.png) [@Dr\_Paprika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr_Paprika)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2023, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-internet-went-down-permanently-would-it-be-a-net-gain-or-a-net-loss/987580/43 "2023-07-26T15:10:55Z")
People talk about MAGA. But no one talks about TATTOO. Trade America to the Old Ones. There might be a god reason for that, though. ---
**Author:** ![gnoitall](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bb73d2/32.png) [@gnoitall](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gnoitall)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2023, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-internet-went-down-permanently-would-it-be-a-net-gain-or-a-net-loss/987580/44 "2023-07-26T15:56:49Z")
> [@FlikTheBlue](#): > > even though the internet has been easily available for ordinary people since around 1995 More specifically, the beginning of the stampede was 1993. > **[Eternal September](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eternal_September)** > > Eternal September or the September that never ended is Usenet slang for a period beginning around 1993 when Internet service providers began offering Usenet access to many new users. The flood of new users overwhelmed the existing culture for online forums and the ability to enforce existing norms. AOL followed with their Usenet gateway service in March 1994, leading to a constant stream of new users. Hence, from the early Usenet point of view, the influx of new users in September 19 During the ... (I don’t believe it was actually September. It was called September symbolically, comparing it to the time of year when clueless college freshmen would get their introduction to the Internet available on campus. Except that every day was indoctrination day for a neverending and never-learning herd of clueless freshmen.) ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2023, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-internet-went-down-permanently-would-it-be-a-net-gain-or-a-net-loss/987580/45 "2023-07-26T17:13:00Z")
> [@Jay\_Z](#): > > I disagree that what you want is safer. It was still a risk, just like it was with older technology. I’m not sure it would even be safer. There were plenty of mailing lists, which would be harder for the authorities to monitor. The reason the pre-Web internet was so much better was that you needed half a brain to use it. Before there was domain addressing spam was a lot harder to send out. Access was limited to people in tech companies, the government, and universities. It didn’t eliminate flame wars. Bell Labs had a scheduled October flame war on mailing lists about putting Christmas decorations up in the lobbies of the buildings. But it was better. Or, we can all go back to PLATO. ---
**Author:** ![Jay\_Z](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Jay\_Z](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jay_Z)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2023, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-internet-went-down-permanently-would-it-be-a-net-gain-or-a-net-loss/987580/46 "2023-07-26T17:44:38Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > I’m not sure it would even be safer. There were plenty of mailing lists, which would be harder for the authorities to monitor. > The reason the pre-Web internet was so much better was that you needed half a brain to use it. Before there was domain addressing spam was a lot harder to send out. Access was limited to people in tech companies, the government, and universities. It didn’t eliminate flame wars. Bell Labs had a scheduled October flame war on mailing lists about putting Christmas decorations up in the lobbies of the buildings. But it was better. > > Or, we can all go back to PLATO. Can’t speak to that because I wasn’t there. My experience with Usenet was not good. Basically a world where every rule that places like this develop out of necessity doesn’t yet exist. If you want to live through again trolls and all of that crap be my guest. Looking back mostly it was a waste of time. Once in a while you could find a little niche were meaningful exchanges took place. Those were rare. Saw a lot of dysfunctional places, and no I don’t think it was all newbies, there were definitely some “established” cultures that I wasn’t impressed with. Based on what I saw, I am a disbeliever that any earlier version was some sort of Garden of Eden. ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2023, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-internet-went-down-permanently-would-it-be-a-net-gain-or-a-net-loss/987580/47 "2023-07-26T19:05:19Z")
> [@Jay\_Z](#): > > My experience with Usenet was not good. Basically a world where every rule that places like this develop out of necessity doesn’t yet exist. If you want to live through again trolls and all of that crap be my guest. Looking back mostly it was a waste of time. I was around for the great [Derek Smart](https://groups.google.com/g/comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.strategic/c/E7q27JJGvJ4/m/-yBvVpl9HpIJ) Usenet flame wars. Apart from some amusement akin to rubbernecking the scene of an accident, yeah, waste of time. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2023, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-internet-went-down-permanently-would-it-be-a-net-gain-or-a-net-loss/987580/48 "2023-07-26T19:31:42Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Just the web. The method by which we spread false news, nasty rumors and movie spoilers at the touch of a few buttons and at no cost, financially or otherwise. Apply for jobs, benefits, buy needed items, fill out employment forms, fill out government forms, file taxes, send mass invites to friends, find out about local disasters, such as threatening brush fires- hours before the news, write product reviews, work remotely, share scientific insights and discoveries… all that good stuff gone, just because some people cant skip over film spoilers. > [@Jackmannii](#): > > I’m thinking that if/when Twitter goes down permanently, it will be a net gain for society. It will be replaced, there are several out there already. Now, if we are talking tiktok, then yes! ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2023, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-internet-went-down-permanently-would-it-be-a-net-gain-or-a-net-loss/987580/49 "2023-07-26T20:31:17Z")
> [@Dr.Strangelove](#): > > The same is true of any technology. _Writing_ killed the ability of people to memorize long stories and histories. Somehow we managed to put the spare brainpower to better use and outsource the memorization to books. This is one of the subjects of a book called _The Shallows: What the Internet is Doing to Our Brains_ by Nicholas G. Carr. He spends a great deal of time on writing and the printing press with conjecture about how that influenced human neurology. The gist as far as the Internet goes is that we’re worse at contextualizing facts, and don’t really “read” in the traditional sense so much as scan the page for whatever we’re looking for, something that is arguably a cognitive deficit. My feelings about the goodness or badness of the Internet stem in part from the way social media in particular exploits my ADHD brain. I cannot control it. I have to install blockers everywhere. There is a strong correlation for me between Internet usage and mental health and I suspect that is true of a lot of psychologically vulnerable populations. But am I a worse thinker? I don’t think so. But I read a lot (books, on Kindle.) And I hang out here rather than Twitter or Facebook. So there’s me. But I also think of friends for whom it’s been life-changing. I think of the nonverbal autistics who populate r/Spicey\_Autism and their ability to connect with other autistic people and express themselves and self-advocate really for the first time in history. I think of people with severe anxiety who can’t leave the house. I think of guys like **blinkie** - remember him? Despite having locked-in syndrome he was able to communicate with us and do volunteer research online. I think of LGBTQ people in red states who no longer have to wonder if there’s anyone else like them. It’s all relative. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2023, 5:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-internet-went-down-permanently-would-it-be-a-net-gain-or-a-net-loss/987580/50 "2023-07-27T05:37:57Z")
> [@Jay\_Z](#): > > Can’t speak to that because I wasn’t there. > > My experience with Usenet was not good. Basically a world where every rule that places like this develop out of necessity doesn’t yet exist. If you want to live through again trolls and all of that crap be my guest. Looking back mostly it was a waste of time. You probably was on the later Usenet, which I agree was a mess. I’m talking about the earlier one, where there was one alt.sex group which was low volume and where serious relationship discussions happened. No trolls. No spam. Back then, and on PLATO, there was default moderation because you were probably using it at work and you didn’t want your management to see you be a dick. Moderation is the secret, which is why this Dope is tolerable. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2023, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-internet-went-down-permanently-would-it-be-a-net-gain-or-a-net-loss/987580/51 "2023-07-27T13:34:54Z")
Moderation is a mort—oh, wait, that is masturbation. Sorry. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2023, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-internet-went-down-permanently-would-it-be-a-net-gain-or-a-net-loss/987580/52 "2023-07-27T13:43:40Z")
I cannot see in any way it would be a net gain. Perhaps I lack imagination. For all the bad it has, the good far outweighs it from my perspective. ---
**Author:** ![Great\_Antibob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Great\_Antibob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Great_Antibob)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2023, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-internet-went-down-permanently-would-it-be-a-net-gain-or-a-net-loss/987580/53 "2023-07-27T14:01:54Z")
It’s not exactly a new idea. It’s akin a very watered down bit of neo-Luddism. Sensationalism can’t be avoided in this case, but it’s also mildly akin to some of the things the Unabomber was thinking about modern society and where technology fits into that picture and how that affects the human condition. The Web by itself going down doesn’t go to those lengths, but it’s a difference of degree rather than a difference of kind. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2023, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-internet-went-down-permanently-would-it-be-a-net-gain-or-a-net-loss/987580/54 "2023-07-27T14:22:49Z")
“The internet sucks. We’d be better off without it!” ~Internet post, circa 2023 ---
**Author:** ![Ulf\_the\_Unwashed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Ulf\_the\_Unwashed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ulf_the_Unwashed)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2023, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-internet-went-down-permanently-would-it-be-a-net-gain-or-a-net-loss/987580/55 "2023-07-27T15:29:37Z")
Personally and professionally, I certainly would not want to go back to a pre-internet time, for all sorts of reasons–most of which have been listed here. I do want to underscore the benefits to people with health issues and disabilities. My wife was an early adopter of email because it was a hell of a lot easier on her than writing letters, and found zoom and its cousins to be way more satisfying than phone calls for keeping up with people. Online shopping was a game changer for her when she was not really able to go into stores any more. The internet allowed her to share medical information with her doctors in real time (and doctors to share her medical records with each other with a minimum of fuss and bother). And on and on. For people in my wife’s category, the end of the internet would be similar to the end of wheelchair ramps and handicapped parking spaces. An awfully high price to put on the backs of some people so that others can…avoid movie spoilers? ---
**Author:** ![Celtic\_Kitsune](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/celtic_kitsune/32/12086_2.png) [@Celtic\_Kitsune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Celtic_Kitsune)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2023, 6:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-internet-went-down-permanently-would-it-be-a-net-gain-or-a-net-loss/987580/56 "2023-07-28T06:57:51Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Just the web. The method by which we spread false news, nasty rumors and movie spoilers at the touch of a few buttons and at no cost, financially or otherwise. > BTW, when was the last time you saw a movie without knowing anything except the title and _maybe_ who were the top billed stars? No leaked footage, no plotlines and/or spoilers, no backstage gossip-months or even years before it ever came out? I went and watched Top Gun Maverick at the cinema about a week after it came out with effectively zero foreknowledge, so it can be done, and it is _definitely_ the best way to watch a movie. It helps that I don’t watch TV, have a small team in the office, and told friends and family that if they spoiled it I’d murderize them on the spot. Joking in case someone ever makes the mistake of taking me seriously. Awesome movie btw! Oh and on the topic the Internet has been good for society and the world but far from unalloyed. Now twitter and it’s ilk we could and should get rid of for the good of all. Also to add for introverts like myself the internet is the best thing ever. Oh my God CK stop editing your post - it’s also fantastic for the curious and people who like learning things. ---
**Author:** ![nightshadea](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/7ba0ec/32.png) [@nightshadea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nightshadea)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2023, 7:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-internet-went-down-permanently-would-it-be-a-net-gain-or-a-net-loss/987580/57 "2023-07-28T07:17:10Z")
I dont think the internet or the web is the problem I think unlimited access isn’t necessarily a good thing i remember when you paid to use aol and the like there was a difference in chats and discussions You could actually have a civilized discussion because it was more valuable you weren’t paying 3.95 an hour to be an idiot …well ok you could still be an idiot in an argument but the spazz ness wasn’t there really … ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2023, 7:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-internet-went-down-permanently-would-it-be-a-net-gain-or-a-net-loss/987580/58 "2023-07-28T07:35:39Z")
At that time though, you also couldn’t find stuff you needed like encyclopaedic information, tutorials, manuals, recipes, reviews, historical and geographical information etc, because the whole model where _anyone_ can create and post information for free hadn’t taken off; the internet was great for chat, but not so _useful._ ---
**Author:** ![Toxylon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f05b48/32.png) [@Toxylon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Toxylon)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2023, 7:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-internet-went-down-permanently-would-it-be-a-net-gain-or-a-net-loss/987580/59 "2023-07-28T07:37:30Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > “The internet sucks. We’d be better off without it!” ~Internet post, circa 2023 This zinger has made the rounds zillions of times, and it has never zinged anyone. We have the internet now, and everybody is on it now. If you want to make yourself heard now, you put it on the internet. Now. ---
**Author:** ![Toxylon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f05b48/32.png) [@Toxylon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Toxylon)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2023, 7:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-internet-went-down-permanently-would-it-be-a-net-gain-or-a-net-loss/987580/60 "2023-07-28T07:40:04Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > you also couldn’t find stuff you needed like encyclopaedic information, tutorials, manuals, recipes, reviews, historical and geographical information etc, Books and magazines were for those things, and they worked fine, though. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2023, 7:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-internet-went-down-permanently-would-it-be-a-net-gain-or-a-net-loss/987580/61 "2023-07-28T07:47:45Z")
Sure, and libraries existed to make them available and somewhat indexed, but you couldn’t find the information you wanted within _mere seconds_ - sometimes you couldn’t find the information you wanted _at all_ - either because the library isn’t indexed down to the individual words and phrases in the books, or because the book wasn’t there, or just didn’t exist (publishing books has a cost that is greater than the free-to-post-whatever-you-want model of the web) (Random example) A regular library isn’t likely to contain a book on [stripping down and repairing a Hotpoint washing machine](https://youtu.be/J5PTCKzp2kI) - you would probably have had to try to order a service manual, which you would pay for, or perhaps your enquiry would just be refused unless you were in the trade. Edit: When I left school in the 1980s, I had an idea for a business that would be a sort of look-up-anything service; the web didn’t exist in anything like even the barely-searchable form we had in the 1990s. I thought there was a potential market for a service that would take a customer question - any question on any topic - and later deliver a report, researched to whatever depth the customer requested and could afford - and the report would reference the books and other sources it quoted, and how to access them. At that time, if you had a curious question about something, you probably just weren’t going to know the answer unless you were lucky to stumble across it in a TV documentary or magazine, or you were prepared to invest some significant time and legwork finding the answer. I thought there might be a market for selling that time and legwork as a service. I never really developed the business idea and it’s as well that I didn’t, because the web would have just cut the legs out from under it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-internet-went-down-permanently-would-it-be-a-net-gain-or-a-net-loss/987580.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-internet-went-down-permanently-would-it-be-a-net-gain-or-a-net-loss/987580.md?page=4)