# If the nazis won the war, could Hitler pass as a decent guy? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 13, 2010, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-nazis-won-the-war-could-hitler-pass-as-a-decent-guy/553666 "2010-09-13T23:45:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![scamartistry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/919ad9/32.png) [@scamartistry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scamartistry)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2010, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-nazis-won-the-war-could-hitler-pass-as-a-decent-guy/553666/1 "2010-09-13T23:45:57Z")
speculative one: (apologies if there is a thread on this already) “History is written by the victors” as the famous Churchill quote goes. Could this in any way be applicable on Hitler if he had been successful over the Allies (by peace treaty, non aggression pacts, or just complete victory ). Is there any way that history would forgive/forget his crimes against humanity, and in worst case be regarded as a saviour/hero of sorts? thoughts? Btw…Are there historical examples when the “bad guys” wins a major conflict, yet recent history regards the aggressors with valor. (best example I could muster is the American-indian vs the european settlers sitution, which is not really that great of an example) ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2010, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-nazis-won-the-war-could-hitler-pass-as-a-decent-guy/553666/2 "2010-09-13T23:58:43Z")
Depends on how they won. If they defeated the Russians and forced the Brits to surrender, then the US would still be out there, and I doubt Hitler et al could have spun things in such a way that the story of the Holocaust didn’t get out at all, or that it wouldn’t have been viewed negatively by ‘history’. Of course, a lot of folks have seemingly forgotten that Stalin actually slaughter more people during his reign than Hitler did, but then he was around longer, so it’s hard to say. Unless Germany managed to conquer the entire world, though, I doubt that ‘history’ would have looked on his actions favorably. At best it would have been looked on in a similar light to those of most of the ‘stars’ of Ancients Acting Badly… -XT ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2010, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-nazis-won-the-war-could-hitler-pass-as-a-decent-guy/553666/3 "2010-09-13T23:59:40Z")
Possibly whoever replaced him would denounce him to some extent, as Krushchev did of Stalin. Of course, that depends on how nuts Adolf gets in his later years. Given the select-for-ruthlessness nature of the Nazi party, there’d be purges and arrests and disappearances at an increasing clip as Hitler roots out enemies, real or imagined. And then, of course, there’s the inevitable economic collapse of fascism itself, what with driving out or killing the educated classes. I basically have no confidence that a stable government could emerge, and Hitler would be blamed sooner or later. ---
**Author:** ![spifflog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c5a1d2/32.png) [@spifflog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spifflog)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2010, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-nazis-won-the-war-could-hitler-pass-as-a-decent-guy/553666/4 "2010-09-14T00:23:26Z")
What’s with all these “Hitler might not be al that bad” threads all the sudden?? Nope, he’s bad no matter what. As has been pointed out, economically Germany is a mess after the war. And there was no way to for the government to survive post-Hitler. Ohh yeah, he murdered millions of Jews, gays, etc. No matter what he’s a bad guy. ---
**Author:** ![scamartistry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/919ad9/32.png) [@scamartistry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scamartistry)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2010, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-nazis-won-the-war-could-hitler-pass-as-a-decent-guy/553666/5 "2010-09-14T00:58:23Z")
> [@spifflog](#): > > Ohh yeah, he murdered millions of Jews, gays, etc. > > No matter what he’s a bad guy. established… ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2010, 1:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-nazis-won-the-war-could-hitler-pass-as-a-decent-guy/553666/6 "2010-09-14T01:16:19Z")
> [@spifflog](#): > > No matter what he’s a bad guy. That’s not the question; the question is could he be spun as a good guy with enough time. Among Germans I’m quite sure he could, revisionist historians there would have patriotism and national guilt avoidance going for them there. But barring a pretty much impossible world conquest scenario I don’t see the world in general being convinced on that. ---
**Author:** ![mutantmoose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a87d85/32.png) [@mutantmoose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mutantmoose)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2010, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-nazis-won-the-war-could-hitler-pass-as-a-decent-guy/553666/7 "2010-09-14T01:38:00Z")
Hitler wrote a little known sequel to _Mein Kampf_ in 1928. It was never published but is known as _Zweites Buch_ - Second Book. I’ll just quote some excerpts from the wiki page but it’s hard to believe his expansionist policies wouldn’t have lead him into conflict with the US and other countries. In fact he explicitly states that he expects a war with the US in about 1980. And I think he may have had a go at some African countries too - he was very jealous of Britain’s African possessions and wanted to retake former German colonies. > **[Hitlers zweites Buch](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zweites_Buch)** > > Hitlers zweites Buch (.mw-parser-output .IPA-label-small{font-size:85%}.mw-parser-output .references .IPA-label-small,.mw-parser-output .infobox .IPA-label-small,.mw-parser-output .navbox .IPA-label-small{font-size:100%}German: \[ˈtsvaɪ̯təs buːχ\], "Second Book"), published in English as Hitler's Secret Book and later as Hitler's Second Book, is an unedited transcript of Adolf Hitler's thoughts on foreign policy written in 1928; it was written after Mein Kampf and was not published in his lifeti > [@](#): > > After the Nazi Party’s poor showing in the 1928 elections, Hitler decided that the public did not fully understand his ideas. He retired to Munich and began dictating a sequel to Mein Kampf. It focused on foreign policy, expanding on the ideas of Mein Kampf and suggesting that around 1980, a final struggle would take place between the United States and the combined forces of Greater Germany and the British Empire… > > In Hitler’s view, merely overthrowing the Treaty of Versailles and restoring Germany to its pre-1914 borders was only a temporary solution. In Zweites Buch, Hitler stated his belief that Germany’s real problem was the lack of sufficient Lebensraum (“Living space”) for the German people. In Hitler’s view, only states with large amounts of Lebensraum were successful. In Zweites Buch, Hitler announced that overthrowing the “shackles” of Versailles would be only the first step in a Nazi foreign policy, whose ultimate objective was to obtain the desired Lebensraum in the territory of Russia… > > Only two copies of the original 200-page manuscript were made, and only one of these copies has ever been made public. Zweites Buch was not published in 1928 as Mein Kampf was not selling well, and Hitler’s publisher informed him that having two books out would depress sales even further. By the time Mein Kampf started to sell well after the September 1930 Reichstag elections, Hitler decided that Zweites Buch revealed too much of his foreign policy goals. Kept strictly secret under Hitler’s orders, the document was placed in a safe inside an air raid shelter in 1935 where it remained until its discovery by an American officer in 1945. The authenticity of the book was verified by Josef Berg (a former employee of the Nazi publishing house Eher Verlag) and by Telford Taylor, the former Brigadier General U.S.A.R. and Chief Counsel at the Nuremberg war-crimes trials. The book was neither edited nor published during the Nazi Germany era and remains known as Zweites Buch (lit. “Second Book”). The Zweites Buch was first discovered in the Nazi archives being held in the United States by the German-born Jewish American historian Gerhard Weinberg in 1958. Unable to find an American publisher, Weinberg turned to his Jewish mentor Hans Rothfels and his associate Martin Broszat at the Institute of Contemporary History in Munich, who published Zweites Buch in 1961 in German. Rothfels wrote the foreword to the 1961 edition. A pirated edition was translated into English and published in New York in 1962. The first authoritative English edition was not published until 2003 as Hitler’s Second Book: The Unpublished Sequel to Mein Kampf. It has also been published under the title “Hitler’s Secret Book”… > > In contrast to Mein Kampf, in Zweites Buch Hitler added a fourth stage to the Stufenplan. He announced that, around 1980, the final struggle for world domination would take place between the United States and the now Greater Germany allied with the British Empire. Zweites Buch also offers a different perspective on the United States than that outlined in Mein Kampf. In the latter, Hitler declared that Germany’s most dangerous opponent on the international scene was the Soviet Union; In Zweites Buch, Hitler declared that for immediate purposes, the Soviet Union was still the most dangerous opponent, but that in the long-term, the most dangerous potential opponent was the United States… > > Of all Germany’s potential enemies, Hitler ranked the United States as the greatest and most dangerous. By contrast, Hitler saw the United Kingdom as a fellow “Aryan” power that in exchange for Germany’s renunciation of naval and colonial ambitions would ally itself with Germany. France, in Hitler’s opinion, was rapidly “Negroizing” itself. In regard to the Soviet Union, Hitler dismissed the Russian people as being Slavic Untermenschen (“sub-humans”) incapable of intelligent thought. Hitler consequently believed that the Russian people were ruled over by what he regarded as a gang of bloodthirsty but inept Jewish revolutionaries. By contrast, the majority of Americans were in Hitler’s view “Aryans”, albeit Aryans ruled by what Hitler saw as a Jewish plutocracy. In Hitler’s point of view, it was this combination of “Aryan” might coupled with competent “Jewish rule” which was what made the U.S. so dangerous… > > In Mein Kampf, Hitler rarely mentioned the United States and when he did, it was in a tone of deep contempt. In Mein Kampf, Hitler portrayed the United States as a “racially degenerate” society on its way to self-destruction. By contrast, in Zweites Buch, Hitler portrayed the U.S. as a dynamic, “racially successful” society that practiced eugenics and segregation and followed what Hitler considered to be a wise policy of excluding “racially degenerate” immigration from eastern and southern Europe. What promoted the change in Hitler’s views between 1924 and 1928 is not known. By 1928, Hitler seems to have heard about the U.S.’ massive industrial wealth, the Immigration Act of 1924, segregation, and the fact that several American states had eugenics boards to sterilize people who were considered mentally defective, and was favorably impressed. Hitler proclaimed his admiration for these sorts of policies and expressed his wish that Germany would do similar things, albeit on a much greater scale. ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2010, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-nazis-won-the-war-could-hitler-pass-as-a-decent-guy/553666/8 "2010-09-14T02:57:55Z")
Is a fine film with Rutger Hauer exploring a world in which Hitler did get away with it. The official story, believed by almost everybody, is that the Nazi’s moved the Jews to an official settlement (I forget where) where they are living happily and semi-autonomously. So the question, to me anyway, isn’t could they spin the Holocaust, but could they cover it up? ---
**Author:** ![Sevastopol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Sevastopol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevastopol)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2010, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-nazis-won-the-war-could-hitler-pass-as-a-decent-guy/553666/9 "2010-09-14T03:32:00Z")
Lots thought Mao was just great, for a long time, some still do. And Stalin. And Hitler for that matter. So yes I’m sure the portrait would be more nuanced than we now appreciate. ---
**Author:** ![outlierrn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/outlierrn/32/3005_2.png) [@outlierrn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/outlierrn)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2010, 5:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-nazis-won-the-war-could-hitler-pass-as-a-decent-guy/553666/10 "2010-09-14T05:16:21Z")
Pass among who? Among how many? I remember reading that even as the Reich was collapsing, and the Allies were pouring across the borders, many Germans still belived in Hitler and blamed subordinates for the defeat. ---
**Author:** ![Martini\_Enfield](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/martini_enfield/32/11123_2.png) [@Martini\_Enfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martini_Enfield)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2010, 5:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-nazis-won-the-war-could-hitler-pass-as-a-decent-guy/553666/11 "2010-09-14T05:26:58Z")
> [@outlierrn](#): > > Pass among who? Among how many? I remember reading that even as the Reich was collapsing, and the Allies were pouring across the borders, many Germans still belived in Hitler and blamed subordinates for the defeat. The thing to bear in mind is that a “Hitler Winning WWII” timeline really precludes the Allies getting anywhere near Germany. Realistically, you’d be looking at a situation where Germany steamrollers Europe (as happened up until 1940) and instead of Britain standing up to them and (cue patriotic music, Union Jack flapping in transparency, images of Spitfires and Lancasters roaring overhead as the soldiers of the entire Empire march towards inevitable victory over the forces of Nazism), Great Britain says “You know what? Bugger this. You stay over in Europe, we’ll focus on our Empire, and nod pleasantly at each other if we pass in the street”. By the time the Allies were swarming ashore at Normandy, the only way Hitler was going to win was if Harry Turtledove was Game-Master and decided that Aliens should invade at that very point, giving Hitler access to Space Jetpacks and Laser Death Rays and unlocking the Nazi Super Science ability. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2010, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-nazis-won-the-war-could-hitler-pass-as-a-decent-guy/553666/12 "2010-09-14T14:03:48Z")
I dunno, many historical “victors” were and are regarded by most as monsters - think of Ghengis Khan, Tamerelane, Shih Huang-Ti. There certainly are many who admire their achievements, but most remember them as cruel. ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2010, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-nazis-won-the-war-could-hitler-pass-as-a-decent-guy/553666/13 "2010-09-14T14:16:03Z")
> [@DocCathode](#): > > Is a fine film with Rutger Hauer exploring a world in which Hitler did get away with it. The official story, believed by almost everybody, is that the Nazi’s moved the Jews to an official settlement (I forget where) where they are living happily and semi-autonomously. And before that, it was [a fine novel](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatherland_(novel)) by Robert Harris. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Scud](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f08c70/32.png) [@Tom\_Scud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Scud)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2010, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-nazis-won-the-war-could-hitler-pass-as-a-decent-guy/553666/14 "2010-09-14T14:54:06Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > Of course, a lot of folks have seemingly forgotten that Stalin actually slaughter more people during his reign than Hitler did, but then he was around longer, so it’s hard to say. But nobody (apart I guess from some Russian nationalists) thinks of Stalin as a hero, just as a less-bad-monster. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2010, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-nazis-won-the-war-could-hitler-pass-as-a-decent-guy/553666/15 "2010-09-14T15:09:36Z")
[QUOTE=Martini Enfield] By the time the Allies were swarming ashore at Normandy, the only way Hitler was going to win was if Harry Turtledove was Game-Master and decided that Aliens should invade at that very point, giving Hitler access to Space Jetpacks and Laser Death Rays and unlocking the Nazi Super Science ability. [/QUOTE] Not even then, since IIRC Hitler get’s blown away when the lizards nuke Berlin…plus, they eventually go to war with the aliens over Poland and get their asses (not tail stumps) kicked up around their ears… -XT ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2010, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-nazis-won-the-war-could-hitler-pass-as-a-decent-guy/553666/16 "2010-09-14T15:15:23Z")
[QUOTE=Tom Scud] But nobody (apart I guess from some Russian nationalists) thinks of Stalin as a hero, just as a less-bad-monster. [/QUOTE] Stalin (or Mao for that matter) haven’t gotten the same rap as Hitler though, even if they killed more people (well, Stalin did…not sure of the exact body count of Mao, but would be surprised if he wasn’t close to Hitler). People I talk to (especially apologists with a more communist bent) tend to emphasize the good aspects and down play the whole gulag thingy, or the summary executions, starvation and all the other downer type stuff. I figure that had Germany won it would have been a similar thing…Hitler would have probably been seen for what he was by most (non-German/non-Greater Germany) serious historians as what he was (though there would have been some that made excuses), while a lot of people would have some vague notions that he did bad things, but overall no really know the details. Stalin might have been the monster of the piece, and people might use his name to win cheap points on message boards instead. -XT ---
**Author:** ![Fuji](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a9a28c/32.png) [@Fuji](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fuji)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2010, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-nazis-won-the-war-could-hitler-pass-as-a-decent-guy/553666/17 "2010-09-14T23:05:53Z")
> [@Tom\_Scud](#): > > > [@xtisme](#): > > > > Of course, a lot of folks have seemingly forgotten that Stalin actually slaughter more people during his reign than Hitler did, but then he was around longer, so it’s hard to say. > > But nobody (apart I guess from some Russian nationalists) thinks of Stalin as a hero, just as a less-bad-monster. [Apparently](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7802485.stm), it’s not just a fringe opinion in Russia. As to the OP, a lot depends on the means of German victory, with I think the two keys being how much of Germany and/or Europe is reduced to rubble in the process, and how long after victory Adolf hangs on. If Schicklegruber gets his KO or TKO before Hamburg, Cologne, Dresden et al. are leveled, then his positive reputation is relatively assured, although to attain “legendary” status he should croak soon enough after his Victory Parade that the inevitable subsequent infighting and chaos help to mask his crimes. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2010, 6:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-nazis-won-the-war-could-hitler-pass-as-a-decent-guy/553666/18 "2010-09-21T06:55:32Z")
Other genocides have gotten away with it. But Hitler being Hitler, I don’t think there was an attainable point at which he would have said, “Enough land.” He would have kept going until his reach exceeded his grasp, & then things would have fallen apart. And considering what he did to his political opponents, I don’t think he ever intended to be seen as a nice guy, just a world conqueror. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2010, 7:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-nazis-won-the-war-could-hitler-pass-as-a-decent-guy/553666/19 "2010-09-21T07:22:11Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#): > > Other genocides have gotten away with it. But Hitler being Hitler, I don’t think there was an attainable point at which he would have said, “Enough land.” He would have kept going until his reach exceeded his grasp, & then things would have fallen apart. And considering what he did to his political opponents, I don’t think he ever intended to be seen as a nice guy, just a world conqueror. This. If Hitler radically changed his own personality, it’s conceivable history would see him in a somewhat favourable light. Genocides can be swept under the carpet (like [this](http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/2597/was-there-genocide-in-early-20th-century-armenia) one). And if the market model of New Germany was like West Germany post-war, then the whole region could conceivably have benefitted. But hitler being hitler what happens instead is endless war and genocide. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2010, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-nazis-won-the-war-could-hitler-pass-as-a-decent-guy/553666/20 "2010-09-21T13:29:49Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > Stalin (or Mao for that matter) haven’t gotten the same rap as Hitler though, even if they killed more people (well, Stalin did…not sure of the exact body count of Mao, but would be surprised if he wasn’t close to Hitler). Actually, Mao killed more people than Hitler. [Cite.](http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/2419/was-andrew-jackson-one-of-the-worlds-most-prolific-mass-murderers) Regards, Shodan [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-nazis-won-the-war-could-hitler-pass-as-a-decent-guy/553666.md?page=2)