# If the Palestinian problem were solved, would Arabs stop hating Israel (and America)? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 18, 2004, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-palestinian-problem-were-solved-would-arabs-stop-hating-israel-and-america/264894 "2004-09-18T20:13:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Sevastopol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Sevastopol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevastopol)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2004, 3:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-palestinian-problem-were-solved-would-arabs-stop-hating-israel-and-america/264894/21 "2004-09-19T03:23:43Z")
> [@Necro Romancer](#): > > [Of course.](http://www.israelnn.com/news.php3?id=68464) And please, visit the PMW links to see the actual clips. Irrelevant, but how dare you make fun of an oppressed people heroically resisting the depredations of one the world’s most malevolent regimes. ---
**Author:** ![Sevastopol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Sevastopol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevastopol)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2004, 3:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-palestinian-problem-were-solved-would-arabs-stop-hating-israel-and-america/264894/22 "2004-09-19T03:31:56Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > Oh, please. And I suppose that [Hamas](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas) does not exist, either… > > Look, I’ll agree that there are many Israeli Jews who will never accept a Palestinian state either, but to say that there are no Palestinians bent on the destrcution of Israel is plain silly. There are dissenting minorities. I completely agree. However the Palestinian people, insofar as they have an organised political process, have chosen through their elected bodies to accept and pursue the Roadmap to Peace. The Israelies by contrast, said so, but now that the GOP is vulnerable and GWB has given carte blanche, the Israelis have openly announced through their leadership the intention to repudiate that process. Being as it is both just and workable. ---
**Author:** ![Atticus\_Finch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ec9cab/32.png) [@Atticus\_Finch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atticus_Finch)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2004, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-palestinian-problem-were-solved-would-arabs-stop-hating-israel-and-america/264894/23 "2004-09-19T03:35:02Z")
> [@sevastopol](#): > > Secondly, it is true that a lot of Arabs are angered because an Arabic people, numbering in the millions had the mapped and promised homeland withdrawn and instead live as a minority in hostile countries where Western promises to them ring hollow annually. > > They are callled Kurds, there are 30 million of them. The Kurds are not Arabs. They do not regard themselves as Arabs, nor do the Arabs regards them as Arabs. And since it is largely Arabs (and Turks, and Iranians) victimising the Kurds, how is it that Arabs as a whole are pissed off at the treatment of the Kurds? Your thesis does not hold water. ---
**Author:** ![Necro\_Romancer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/50afbb/32.png) [@Necro\_Romancer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Necro_Romancer)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2004, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-palestinian-problem-were-solved-would-arabs-stop-hating-israel-and-america/264894/24 "2004-09-19T03:35:06Z")
> [@sevastopol](#): > > Irrelevant, but how dare you make fun of an oppressed people heroically resisting the depredations of one the world’s most malevolent regimes. _The fuck?_ It’s not irrelevant. It’s a response to your statement about the Palestinian leadership. And how exactly am I making fun of anybody? ---
**Author:** ![Sevastopol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Sevastopol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevastopol)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2004, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-palestinian-problem-were-solved-would-arabs-stop-hating-israel-and-america/264894/25 "2004-09-19T03:50:36Z")
> [@Atticus Finch](#): > > The Kurds are not Arabs. They do not regard themselves as Arabs, nor do the Arabs regards them as Arabs. And since it is largely Arabs (and Turks, and Iranians) victimising the Kurds, how is it that Arabs as a whole are pissed off at the treatment of the Kurds? > > Your thesis does not hold water. I think the question of Kurds=Arabs is ambiguous. I tend to favour the = position. My overall point though, is not that it is specifically the Kurdish question. Rather, that Western influence in the region extends much further than Israel and is the cause of numerous larger and longer lasting grievances. The Kurdish question is just one example. I am certainly not asserting that each such grievance motivates the mind of every Arab ill disposed to the West. In fact the Israel question may be unique in that it is the one everybody agrees on. ---
**Author:** ![Sevastopol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Sevastopol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevastopol)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2004, 4:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-palestinian-problem-were-solved-would-arabs-stop-hating-israel-and-america/264894/26 "2004-09-19T04:03:29Z")
Actually I erred [Kurds are not Arabs.](http://www.encyclopedia.com/html/K/Kurds.asp) But my overall point still stands and I also think the OP was referring to regional animosity towards the West, rather than Arabs in the strict sense. ---
**Author:** ![Sevastopol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Sevastopol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevastopol)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2004, 4:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-palestinian-problem-were-solved-would-arabs-stop-hating-israel-and-america/264894/27 "2004-09-19T04:14:05Z")
> [@Necro Romancer](#): > > _The fuck?_ It’s not irrelevant. It’s a response to your statement about the Palestinian leadership. And how exactly am I making fun of anybody? It is a story that comes through \* Arutz Sheva\* via _Palestinian Media Watch_. A joke. ---
**Author:** ![Necro\_Romancer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/50afbb/32.png) [@Necro\_Romancer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Necro_Romancer)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2004, 4:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-palestinian-problem-were-solved-would-arabs-stop-hating-israel-and-america/264894/28 "2004-09-19T04:48:52Z")
You’re a disingenuous poster. I won’t be arguing with you anymore. ---
**Author:** ![Complex\_Conjugate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/3bc359/32.png) [@Complex\_Conjugate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Complex_Conjugate)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2004, 12:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-palestinian-problem-were-solved-would-arabs-stop-hating-israel-and-america/264894/29 "2004-09-19T12:04:26Z")
> [@bizzwire](#): > > Thank you, **CC**. You have definitively proven, once and for all, that Arabs don’t hate Jews. > Masterfully done, Sir…masterfully done. I think the rolleyes symbol means something, I’ve forgotten what. :rolleyes: :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2004, 1:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-palestinian-problem-were-solved-would-arabs-stop-hating-israel-and-america/264894/30 "2004-09-19T13:01:17Z")
> [@Complex Conjugate](#): > > Jews support Israel because the hate Arabs (A current joke in the Israeli army is “what do you call a Palestianian in the sea?” “Pollution” " What do you call 2 million Palestinians in the Sea?" “A solution.”) :wally . :rolleyes: Funny how they tell jokes that rhyme in English, but not in Hebrew. (And before you dredge up any more “jokes” - yeah, Israeli troops occasionally say nasty things about Arabs. Soldiers tend to feel some resentment towards the guys shooting at them). ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2004, 1:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-palestinian-problem-were-solved-would-arabs-stop-hating-israel-and-america/264894/31 "2004-09-19T13:06:28Z")
A reminder that the Arab league offered full [recognition](http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/country_profiles/1550977.stm) of Israel as a state just a couple of years ago. > [@](#): > > Saudi initiative, offering Israel normal relations with Arab world in return for its withdrawal from land occupied in 1967, is endorsed at Beirut summit. Israel refuses to allow Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat to attend summit. Fuck it, why not take them up on the offer, rebuild the wall on the de facto borders, and watch the problems diminish? Let’s be honest - I don’t think the antisemitism that has adhered itself to the political issues would be eliminated for generations, but goodness some kind of settlement _would help_! Think about Northern Ireland - there is relative peace now, but there is still a bunch of headbangers around on both sides who want to kick all the unionists/nationalists out of Northern Ireland, and the hatred still runs horribly deep in many quarters, but the majority of former terrorist supporters are now supporting the political initiatives towards a solution. Given a reasonably equitable two-state system, and a diminution of oppression of Palestinian civilians, I think there would still be lots of dreadful extremists out there - indeed there would probably still be terrorism occurring in Israel, as there still is in NI, but _much_ reduced. I’d bet there would also be more Arab state assistance in hunting them down, rather than the current capitulation and harboring, and majority Street opinion would tilt away from the more extreme views. These things are always imperfect compromises, but seeking a solution that reduces the problem, rather than a utopia, is the only thing that’s going to help, IMO. ---
**Author:** ![Complex\_Conjugate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/3bc359/32.png) [@Complex\_Conjugate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Complex_Conjugate)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2004, 1:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-palestinian-problem-were-solved-would-arabs-stop-hating-israel-and-america/264894/32 "2004-09-19T13:18:43Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Funny how they tell jokes that rhyme in English, but not in Hebrew. > > (And before you dredge up any more “jokes” - yeah, Israeli troops occasionally say nasty things about Arabs. Soldiers tend to feel some resentment towards the guys shooting at them). So are we agreed that you shouldn’t make ridculous statements to try to stereotype an entire race/culture/religion? And that’s it’s not good to complain about racism, whilst in the same staement you revealing yourself as more than a little racist yourself? > [@](#): > > See, your whole argument hinges on this, but the Arab world – and, to some extent, the whole Islamic world – hates Israel because they’re Jews. > > They’ve never been shy about saying so, right in public: “Jewish devils,” “the evil Jews,” “we will push the Jews into the sea,” etc. The Palestinians are being used as pawns by their neighbors to force Israel into an impossible position. The joke was simlairly to reflect the lack of insightful commnetary in the post above and the use of ancedotal evidence to support the propostion. Coincidentally the joke is a joke doing the rounds in the Israeli army. > [@](#): > > During the time I’ve been here I’ve seen a coarsening of attitudes on both sides. I recently met an Israeli soldier at Erez Crossing, the volatile entry point to Gaza, who asked me if I’d heard the latest joke making the rounds of the Army. “What do you call one Palestinian in the sea? Pollution.” I smiled politely. Then came the punch line: “What do you call 2 million Palestinians in the sea? The solution.” The attitude isn’t much different on the other side of the wall, where I often hear scurrilous talk about “the Jews” and feel compelled to cover up my own ethnic background [http://msnbc.msn.com/id/5852833/site/newsweek/](http://msnbc.msn.com/id/5852833/site/newsweek/) ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2004, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-palestinian-problem-were-solved-would-arabs-stop-hating-israel-and-america/264894/33 "2004-09-19T15:15:38Z")
> [@Complex Conjugate](#): > > So are we agreed that you shouldn’t make ridculous statements to try to stereotype an entire race/culture/religion? And that’s it’s not good to complain about racism, whilst in the same staement you revealing yourself as more than a little racist yourself? > > The joke was simlairly to reflect the lack of insightful commnetary in the post above and the use of ancedotal evidence to support the propostion. > > Coincidentally the joke is a joke doing the rounds in the Israeli army. > > [http://msnbc.msn.com/id/5852833/site/newsweek/](http://msnbc.msn.com/id/5852833/site/newsweek/) At what point did I make a statement stereotyping an entire culture? An how, pray tell, was my statement racist? Israeli soldiers feel that they’re at war with the Palestinians, just as one nation is often at war with another. I’m sure GIs made racist comments about the Japanese in 1943, just as I’m sure that Redcoats made nasty jokes about the French in 1805. You may agree with the validity of the Israeli side of the conflict or not (and I have a slight suspicion where you fall on that little question), but you can’t deny that many Israeli soldiers and civilians _have_ dies at the hands pf Palestinians. Stuff like that doesn’t engender much love or compasion - on either sides. I’m sure Palestinians say equally mean things about Israelis, and I don’t hold it against them. People take this kind of thing personally. ---
**Author:** ![Complex\_Conjugate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/3bc359/32.png) [@Complex\_Conjugate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Complex_Conjugate)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2004, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-palestinian-problem-were-solved-would-arabs-stop-hating-israel-and-america/264894/34 "2004-09-19T15:22:00Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > At what point did I make a statement stereotyping an entire culture? An how, pray tell, was my statement racist? I did not sya you did, it was referring to the post above my original post (which was the post i quoted) > [@](#): > > Israeli soldiers feel that they’re at war with the Palestinians, just as one nation is often at war with another. I’m sure GIs made racist comments about the Japanese in 1943, just as I’m sure that Redcoats made nasty jokes about the French in 1805. You may agree with the validity of the Israeli side of the conflict or not (and I have a slight suspicion where you fall on that little question), but you can’t deny that many Israeli soldiers and civilians _have_ dies at the hands pf Palestinians. Stuff like that doesn’t engender much love or compasion - on either sides. I’m sure Palestinians say equally mean things about Israelis, and I don’t hold it against them. People take this kind of thing personally. I agree with you up to the point, but where I disagree with you is that I do not think it is right or acceptable on either side. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2004, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-palestinian-problem-were-solved-would-arabs-stop-hating-israel-and-america/264894/35 "2004-09-19T15:43:36Z")
Please, let’s not get all hijacked. I’m sure that even after the establishment of a Palestinian state, the Palestinians would feel a lot of lingering hatred towards the Israelis and vice-versa. But this thread isn’t about them. What about the **rest** of the Arab and Islamic worlds? It’s not really a personal conflict to them the way it is to people who actually live in Palestine. Could they put all this hatred behind them? ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2004, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-palestinian-problem-were-solved-would-arabs-stop-hating-israel-and-america/264894/36 "2004-09-19T16:05:28Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Please, let’s not get all hijacked. I’m sure that even after the establishment of a Palestinian state, the Palestinians would feel a lot of lingering hatred towards the Israelis and vice-versa. But this thread isn’t about them. What about the **rest** of the Arab and Islamic worlds? It’s not really a personal conflict to them the way it is to people who actually live in Palestine. Could they put all this hatred behind them? Over multiple generations perhaps. The problem is that this conflict has been going on for so long and has become so…institutionalized, for lack of a better word, that it would take some time for animosities to die down. It has become part of the collective consciousness of much of that part of the world, the Arab world in particular. Of course the farther out your are on the periphery of the Muslim world, in general the quicker that process will be. Syria is going to be tense over Israel for a lot longer than Senegal or Indonesia. And it’s certainly likely that some militants will _never_ accept Israel ( and probably a few nutcases will never give up the idea of a “greater Israel”. ) You can only hope to decrease and marginalize that group over time. - Tamerlane ---
**Author:** ![Complex\_Conjugate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/3bc359/32.png) [@Complex\_Conjugate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Complex_Conjugate)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2004, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-palestinian-problem-were-solved-would-arabs-stop-hating-israel-and-america/264894/37 "2004-09-19T16:09:43Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Please, let’s not get all hijacked. I’m sure that even after the establishment of a Palestinian state, the Palestinians would feel a lot of lingering hatred towards the Israelis and vice-versa. But this thread isn’t about them. What about the **rest** of the Arab and Islamic worlds? It’s not really a personal conflict to them the way it is to people who actually live in Palestine. Could they put all this hatred behind them? There is more movement in that direction now, recently Egypt made movements for peace and a lasting settlemnt to the middle-eastern porblem, but there overtures were were rejecetd outright, by the current Israeli government. One of the main problems is the current Israeli government, who have done thier best to reject any negotitations with either the Palestians or other Arab nations. The main reason for this is that to them and the segemnt of Israeli soceity they represent peace is only a secondary considertaion to an enlarged state of Israel. For the peace process to get going again it will probably need a government controlled by one of the centre or left-of-centre parties such as Shinui or Labor who see peace as the primary goal. ---
**Author:** ![edwino](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/35a633/32.png) [@edwino](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/edwino)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2004, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-palestinian-problem-were-solved-would-arabs-stop-hating-israel-and-america/264894/38 "2004-09-19T18:37:06Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > I don’t think that’s true, **Eve.** From the time of Mohammed to the 20th Century, the Islamic world tolerated a substantial Jewish minority in their midst and usually did not persecute them, ghettoize them or pressure them to convert. (Quite unlike the Christian world!) Muslims didn’t really start hating Jews until the state of Israel was created on land they regarded as the rightful territory of Dar al-Islam. In other words, they hate Jews because of Israel, not because the Jews are Jews. I think the good treatment of Jews in the Muslim world has been hotly debated here and elsewhere. Yes, they weren’t actively persecuted as much as in the Christian world. But living in dhimmi status, they were always subject on-and-off persecution. There were plenty of incidents of oppression and outright violence against Jews that was overlooked or actively encouraged. It was not a good solution, and when the opportunity arose for self-governance, given the long checkered history of Jews living under other regimes, the Zionists seized it. But, in essence, I am optimistic. Israeli Jews freely and safely traveled into Arab towns in the territories before the first intifada and between the intifadas. If there was a comprehensive peace plan, with some token solution of the refugee problem and a fair land exchange, then I can see a relatively open peace between Palestine and Israel emerging. There is a lot of incentive for cooperation – Israel is now heavily dependent on expensive imported labor, as security restrictions prevent Israeli businesses from using Palestinian labor. Sites like Bethlehem, Jericho, and Hebron will encourage relatively free transit over the borders. With both sides making money, with both sides cooperating to increase their standard of living, I can see reasonably quick progress towards an open peace. With other countries, it is a more difficult question. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2004, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-palestinian-problem-were-solved-would-arabs-stop-hating-israel-and-america/264894/39 "2004-09-19T19:21:18Z")
> [@edwino](#): > > But, in essence, I am optimistic. Israeli Jews freely and safely traveled into Arab towns in the territories before the first intifada and between the intifadas. If there was a comprehensive peace plan, with some token solution of the refugee problem and a fair land exchange, then I can see a relatively open peace between Palestine and Israel emerging. There is a lot of incentive for cooperation – Israel is now heavily dependent on expensive imported labor, as security restrictions prevent Israeli businesses from using Palestinian labor. Sites like Bethlehem, Jericho, and Hebron will encourage relatively free transit over the borders. With both sides making money, with both sides cooperating to increase their standard of living, I can see reasonably quick progress towards an open peace. With other countries, it is a more difficult question. I hope you’re right – but I think what you’re describing could only happen under a Shinui or Labor government. When’s the next Israeli election, anyway? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2004, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-palestinian-problem-were-solved-would-arabs-stop-hating-israel-and-america/264894/40 "2004-09-19T19:24:20Z")
I just looked at the Wikipedia article on Israel ([http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel)). From the “Politics” section: “Sharon’s supporters see his strategy as having reduced the threat of Palestinian terrorism, and as laying the basis for a lasting peace in the Middle East by resolving the “Palestinian problem” with finality.” Am I the only one who feels chills on reading that sentence? Sometimes Godwinization is the only rational response . . . [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-palestinian-problem-were-solved-would-arabs-stop-hating-israel-and-america/264894.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-palestinian-problem-were-solved-would-arabs-stop-hating-israel-and-america/264894.md?page=3)