If the Palestinians got independence, would hostility to Israel fade?

Great Debates
21

Sal, I very much do beg to differ in your assessment. Discrimination against Arabs in Israel is indeed a problem and one that is comparable to the problem of discrimination against minorities in the US. Let’s get some facts, shall we? Cite. And Cite.

Political discrimination: no official policy of discrimination although some does occur defact as a result of not being required to serve in the military and by virtue of the requirement that a political party must accept that Israel has a right to exist. That latter seems reasonable though.

Certainly on par with the long history of effective political discrimination in the US.

Jobs officially off limits? Please expound. I see no evidence of that other than in security related fields. In terms of job discrimination that exists despite official policy … on par with the US.

Travel restrictions? For Arab Israeli citizens? Please expound.

Where they can live? Well here is a small point. 12.5% of public held land is held by the Jewish National Fund, an organ of the nongovernmental organization The World Zionist Organization, and its by-laws do allow for sale or lease to Jews only. That was challanged in court and restrictions placed such that those discriminatory policies by a non-governmental body could accepted only under “special” circumstances. I am unsure if there have been further developments in that case. Of course there are neighborhoods that are Arab and those that are not. Not much different than in America.

Certainly the average Israeli Arab is likely to be less educated and less well paid than the average Israeli Jew. Some of this results from unofficial but still systematic discrimination and such must be fought against. Just like in America, minority areas tend to get less money for education and development. Some of it is secondary to demographics (larger families with few resources begets less to spend on promoting the welfare of each child.) But finally please compare the state of rights and health for Israeli Arabs to those in other ME states. More freedoms. More rights. More education ( in Israel “The rate of female literacy in Israel is 88% among Arabs. [and] The median years of schooling of Arab Israelis rose over a 35-year period (1961-1996) from 1.2 to 10.4 years.” Average Arab literacy rates inArab countries is 70% for males and 50% for females. Only Lebanon, Jordan, UAW, and Kuwait have close to similar Arab literacy rates, overall.) Lower infant mortality.

Israel should do better, but compared to its peers in the ME it is doing pretty damn well for its Arab citizens. And on par with the treatment of minority groups in many other Western countries, including the US. Look up Human Rights Watch’s Reports on America’s track record and try to find anything similar in HRW critiquing Israels’ treatment of its Arab citizens.

Neither I nor Israel are ignoring the implications of the demographic trends. But “one state” (other than as an eventual loose federation) would, because of demographics, be the end of Israel, so it is totally off the table. To me the demographics makes improving the economic and educational position of the Arab Israeli a critical problem to rectify. If it is not, and if therefore the Arab Israeli birth rate continues to be as huge as it currently is, then a collision course is set within some finite number of generations. While Arabs are a minority Israel can avoid the Arab world’s theocratic solutions and maintain concurrently the identity of a secular democracy and having a Jewish character and being a Jewish homeland. If Arabs become a near majority then one has to go. The loss of either would be, to me, tragic.

22

DSeid, of your cites, the first proves my point – please read it top to bottom if you don’t believe me – and the second is a Wikipedia article of disputed neutrality. Hell, the State Department of the most Israel-friendly country in the world (that’s the U.S., for those scoring at home) says “The Government did little to reduce institutional, legal, and societal discrimination against the country’s Arab citizens.” I mean, you may not think that’s a problem, but if you were an Israeli Arab, would you think so? Of course you would.

23

And if you really want a comparison, educate yourself on the state of Jews who have been in Arab lands. There are still a few left. Most were driven off circa 1948 and property confiscated, but some small communities are there. It is an enlightening comparison. Again, not the standard that Israel should be held to.

24

I read both the cites from top to bottom and choose the first specifically because it was overall taking a very critical position of Israel. I prefer my data from sources that are critical to my position. Yet the facts listed in both are in concurrance and are as I listed. There are problems and “de facto” discrimination exists despite being full citizens under the law, as it does to minorities in the US. But that is not as you describe. If you find specific support that it is other than that then please quote it to me.

25

Oh, I don’ t know, I read statements in your first cite like “obvious discrimination” and “suffer political discrimination based on decades of social exclusion” and “barred from the military” and suchlike, and I think to myself, “You know what? Israel has a discrimination problem!”

You say that Israel’s discrimination against Palestinians is analogous to American discrimination, and that’s obviously an absurd contention. If in the U.S. Jews were kept from the military just because they were Jews, then I’d say you had an argument. Think of it this way – imagine the Jews in the U.S. were discriminated against in the exact same way Palestinians in Israel are Israel are discriminated against. Would you then be saying to youself, “Why should they complain? At least they’re better off than Jews in Russia.”

But again, let me say in reference to the OP, DSeid is illustrating the real problem here – the extreme and often absurd defensiveness of Israel’s supporters. They don’t want to engage with the problem of “What should we do?”, wanting instead just to argue for arguing’s sake. They are unable to accommodate themselves to the idea that the demographic realities of 20 or 50 or 100 years from now are going to make their inability to focus on constructive problem-solving look very foolish indeed.

26

:slight_smile: This I find entertaining!

The “obvious” is of course the interpretation part. The actual facts are as I have described and so far you have contradicted none of them. The bit on military service is in disagreement between my two cites. To settle the matter go to a neutral cite, The CIA Factbook and determine that indeed Arab’s can serve if they wish, but only the Druze are so required (by their community’s request) and that few Arab Muslim citizens volunteer.

Personally I am hard pressed to believe that allowing Arab Muslims and Christians to opt out if they want or to serve if they want, while giving Jewish citizens no say, is adverse discrimination against Arabs. The Jews, they gotta case.

Now if want you to say that my pointing out that your understanding of the facts is incorrect, and that my providing multiple cites that demonstrate accurate facts, including from sources that have a clear spin on those facts that is as not favorable to Israel’s record, and that my stating from the outset clearly that I think that the problem of discrimination in Israel is real, significant and needs to be addressed, just as I believe is the case in America but not significantly moreso than in America, is all “extreme” and “absurd defensiveness” then I just gotta ask: WTF are you doing hanging out in GD buddy? :rolleyes:

27

So DSeid, let me ask you point blank:

Would you as a [insert ethnicity here] be okay with being discriminated against as a member of [insert ethnicity here], as Palestinians are discriminated against in Israel?

This is a yes or no question.

28

Sal, let me ask you a question:

Would you be OK with being discriminated against as any Jew who still lives in any Arab state is discriminated against?

This is a yes or no question.

You can’t pretend that the desire for a Jewish state exists in a vacuum. The jews of Israel believe they need a majority jewish state because otherwise they’d be faced with second Holocaust. Can you honestly state that they are wrong? You know and I know that if Israel was ever conquered by one of it’s arab neighbors that genocide would quickly follow.

Yes, the idea of a one ethnicity state clashes with our American ideals. But America is one of the few countries in the world like this, others include Canada and Switzerland, but few others. Are you against Germany, France, Spain, Italy, China, Japan, Thailand, Hungary, Bulgaria, Turkey, Poland, Czech Republic, Slokavia, Portugal, Sweden, Denmark, Finland, Norway, and Ireland, and on and on?

Single-ethnicity states are the norm around the world, not the exception. What possible motive could you have in opposing Israel’s existance as a majority Jewish state, but not Germany as a majority German state?

29

Of course not. That’s entirely my point here. Discrimination=bad. Don’t you think so? Even if you don’t, the relevant question is, do the Palestinians think so?

Yes, I can honestly say, I believe they’re wrong. I doubt the US would let it happen, for example.

Huh? The only example I can think of offhand is Iceland, and I’m probably wrong even there. Most of the examples you cited are multiethnic states.

I’m not opposing Israel’s existence as a majority Jewish state, I’m opposing Israel’s existence as a state that discriminates. Germany, last I recall, doesn’t discriminate against the Jews the way Israel discriminates against the Palestinians. And if it did, I would have a problem with it – the same problem you would have with it, I imagine. So why don’t the Palestinians get the same consideration?

30

I have answered that question already. No, I do not think that discrimination in Israel is okay, I do not think that discrimination in the US is okay and I do not think that discrimination in Arab counties is okay. I am not okay with discrimination. Of an Arab in America or in Israel; of a Black or a White; of Eggs and Ham even if they are green. I do not like discrimination Sal-my-pal. Discrimination in Israel’s case is not only wrong because it is discrimination, it is also wrong from the POV of an informed Israeli self-interest. But there are magnitudes of discrimination and acts that are factually occurring and those that are not. Arab Israeli’s are not dhimmis with a second-class status codified by force of law. They have full legal protections and very little discrimination is part of any official policy (even the JNF policies have been challanged to some partial success). But reality is as reality is and discrimination against minority groups occurs in Israel just like it does elsewhere, and just like elsewhere it must be fought against. Reality also is that advocates for better protections and better investment in educational infrastructure for the poor minorities of Israel will be hardpressed to get it to the top of any political agenda while Israelis are more concerned about not getting schoolbusses bombed out. Security is going to be the top issue until a real settlement creates a real Palestine that is more concerned with building a future than with fostering hatred and personal fiefdoms. But once that occurs there are many issues that Israel must deal with. Discrimination against minority groups, the battle between secularists and the power of the extreme Orthodox outside their numbers, and more.

So I answered your yes/no question, even if I elaborated some. Let me ask you one. Arabs in a demographic majority Jewish Israel have full protections under the law, do you think that Jews in a demographic majority Arab combined one-state would long have the same rights and be treated as well as Arabs are in Israel?

31

Fine, we agree. That’s my only point here, not whether Israel is better or worse than Libya or North Korea or Bhutan.

That’s the question. I would like to say yes, but you know, mistreatment of the Arabs has bred resentment, no question about it, and the temptation will be strong for the Arabs to do unto others as has been done unto them. But whether the Arabs will treat the Jews well or horribly does nothing about the Arab birthrate. If the Jews find themselves a minority, they’ll have to lump it. That’s why I’m saying that Israel, for its own self interest, should deal now. And that’s why I say Israel’s interest is not served by quibbling over Arafat or Sabra and Shatilla or 1948 or how Jews were treated in the Ottoman Empire.

32

I’ve started a new thread just to discuss that idea – http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=353829 – so have at it!

33

Okay, exit stage right for me.

34

Hey Jews don’t really have to guess. Minorities in Arab countries are treated badly. There is no reason to think that an Arab dominated Israel-Palestine one-state would treat a minority Jewish population any better, even without animosity from Occupation. Hell Arabs in Arab countries are treated badly.

Agreed that rehashing and wheel-spinning over who was unfair to whom first is fruitless. The question is what way forward. Two states is the way to go with more emphasis on agrements over water rights and tax structures than quibbling over a few kms of land here or there. Solid security that is reliable. Anti-discrimination measures in both areas (if a Jewish settler wants to be a citizen of Palestine and pay taxes to a PA and serve in their army, etc. why not allow him or her citizenship and protections? Discrimination should be just as inexcusable in the West Bank as in Israel.)

35

In answer to the OP’s question - Would hostility to Israel fade?

The answer is obviously yes. The supplementary question is how much?

The answer is the hostility would fade in direct proportion to the justice of terms of the settlement of Palestinian independence? The supplementary question is whether that hostility is likely to fade to negligible?

No (1) Israel is oppossed to a just settlement.
No (2) Even a just settlement would not erase all the historical hostility
No (3) Much of the hostility to Israel stems from its appearance as a Western colonial beachhead in the Middle East and is unrelated to its religious character.

36

Well I’d like to shed a little light on this …

First of all, with all due respect to the starter of this thread, I disagree with the topic itself. I mean, what exactly is meant by “independence”?

The actual meaning of independence here unlvalidates the question of the topic.

Israel came from nowhere taking a part of Palestine, and thats why hostility is there towards Israel. You want the hostility to fade? Pretty simple, just do the reverse and give them back there land, full, including 1948 occupied lands. Because thats is palestine, and as long as Israel occupies 1 inch from their lands, hostility will be present.

The question is invalid because for independence to be given to palestinians, Israel must give them back there country, which Israel is build on, which consequently means that for the hostility to fade, Israel must not be there at the first place.

Israel has no right by any means in taking those lands, how do you suppose hostility to fade while the people are being killed daily for no reason.
Take the Israel/Egypt experience for example. Israel occupied Sinai, egyptians hated Israel more than anything, and fought back until Israel left the whole Egyptian lands as losers, and now, the Egyptian/Israeli relations are quite good now.
So, you want hostlity towards Israel to fade from the palestinians, leave their lands just like you did with Egypt, but the problem is that the case is different because the Palestinian land is the Israeli land. Which is why I think the topics is unvalid, and with that all being said I think we should question our logics deep down inside about the legitimacy of Israel.
Which brings me down to the big question, Does Israel has the right in the Palestinian lands??