# If the Queen abdicated... **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [March 1, 2007, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-queen-abdicated/394230 "2007-03-01T22:52:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![FRDE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e68b1a/32.png) [@FRDE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FRDE)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2007, 11:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-queen-abdicated/394230/61 "2007-03-06T11:22:09Z")
[QUOTE=Alive At Both Ends] I can’t speak for NZ, but in the UK it wouldn’t even be an assumption. There’s no way the House of Commons (which is very protective of its own power) would agree to a powerful presidency actually running things and independent of them. With the current system the head of government is chosen from their members and can be removed by a simple majority vote in the House; and though the Queen is independent of them she has few real powers. For the House of Commons to change that setup would be like turkeys voting for Christmas. The most you might get would be a ceremonial presidency like in Ireland with the Prime Minister’s job remaining the same. [/QUOTE] I think that you over estimate the intelligence of the House of Commons - some of them are just about bright enough to realize that an elected Upper Chamber is a complete menace **to them** - note: just some of them, otherwise it would have been dismissed out of hand. The trouble is that people don’t tend to see the long term consequences. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2007, 11:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-queen-abdicated/394230/62 "2007-03-06T11:35:39Z")
[QUOTE=Alive At Both Ends] The most you might get would be a ceremonial presidency like in Ireland with the Prime Minister’s job remaining the same. [/QUOTE] I think if the average Brit woke up to find himself living in a republic with a president like Ireland, he’d suffer an acute case of tea shock. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2007, 11:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-queen-abdicated/394230/63 "2007-03-06T11:39:47Z")
**FRDE** : I suppose that’s what **calm kiwi** was on about, but I find this post from **Ice Wolf** more convincing: > [@](#): > > It all depends on whether you just change the title from Governor-General to President and leave the nobs as they are today (appointed by the government of the day, not the people) or go for the dual election thing of President and Prime Minister. Really, though – I don’t see any fundamental change in the checks and balances as compared with what we have today. France has both a PM and a President, so the basic system (called [semi-presidential](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semi-presidential_system)) is sound, but I don’t see any reason why the Commonwealth countries would have to create the post of President. ---
**Author:** ![TheLoadedDog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/35a633/32.png) [@TheLoadedDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TheLoadedDog)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2007, 11:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-queen-abdicated/394230/64 "2007-03-06T11:49:54Z")
In 1999, or thereabouts, Australia held a referendum on becoming a republic. It was defeated, and we remain a constitutional monarchy. The reason it was defeated is related to what **Derleth** is talking about. There is no reason to think an Australian or NZ (or Canadian etc) republic would be based on an American model, or a French one etc, and there is no reason to think it _wouldn’t_ be. In other words, there are different models out there, and this is what split the pro vote, with many people (myself included\*) voting to retain the monarchy. Some people were in favour of a popularly-elected president, and others were in favour of little more than a change of title for the G-G, with that position being decided by a two-thirds majority of both houses of parliament (the so-called “minimalist republican” model). Personally, the former option scares me, and I like the indirect nature of the second, which gives the President much less of a political mandate. The monarchists were united and the republicans were split. When the constitutional convention offered the direct election model as the alternative to the monarchy, it was defeated. \*Though in the intervening years I have probably changed my position enough that I would vote to retain the monarchy regardless. ---
**Author:** ![Alive\_At\_Both\_Ends](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/73ab20/32.png) [@Alive\_At\_Both\_Ends](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alive_At_Both_Ends)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2007, 11:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-queen-abdicated/394230/65 "2007-03-06T11:58:53Z")
[QUOTE=TheLoadedDog] In other words, there are different models out there, and this is what split the pro vote, with many people (myself included\*) voting to retain the monarchy. [/QUOTE] That’s the problem with talking about wanting a “republic” - it’s become a catch-all term for anything that isn’t a monarchy. A term which encompasses anything from Switzerland to North Korea. We need some more precise terminology, really. ---
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2007, 1:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-queen-abdicated/394230/66 "2007-03-06T13:26:00Z")
[QUOTE=Alive At Both Ends] That’s the problem with talking about wanting a “republic” - it’s become a catch-all term for anything that isn’t a monarchy. A term which encompasses anything from Switzerland to North Korea. We need some more precise terminology, really. [/QUOTE] We have a more precise terminology. What we don’t have is a _single_ more precise terminology: Anyone who seriously discusses government comes up against this same issue and is forced to define basic terms from scratch to have a useful vocabulary. Thus far, no single redefinition has caught on. > [@TheLoadedDog](#): > > I like the indirect nature of the second, which gives the President much less of a political mandate. Mandate is one thing, but power is quite another. To take an extreme example, Kim Jong Il has no recognizable mandate but ultimate power over his fiefdom. I’m uncomfortable with indirect methods because, despite all of the traditions and ideals, eventually the politicians will hit on someone who will abuse all of the power he has been granted, even theoretical powers nobody intended anyone in that post would ever actually use. In my own country, the Supreme Court is the highest body staffed by appointees, and there are times when I’m unsure about the wisdom of that. (I _am_ sure that it should be easier to remove the obviously unfit, as some quite senile old duffers have held on to their posts well after they ought to have been sent to babble memoirs to nurses at Shady Acres or Bellevue.) ---
**Author:** ![Ice\_Wolf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/dfb087/32.png) [@Ice\_Wolf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ice_Wolf)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2007, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-queen-abdicated/394230/67 "2007-03-08T18:26:30Z")
It’s interesting that the thought goes to something replacing the monarchy in a system of government if the monarchy isn’t there. Almost as if we really can’t trust government-by-committee – there just has to be some_one_ in charge. Which is odd for NZ, because government-by-committee is precisely how we’ve been governed since the early part of last century. For 100 years exactly this year, actually. Even the bicameral system bit the dust here more than 50 years ago. Comes with being on the edge of things, I suppose. I’m still in the “really don’t care if we have a monarchy or not” camp. ---
**Author:** ![Hypnagogic\_Jerk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hypnagogic_jerk/32/4252_2.png) [@Hypnagogic\_Jerk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hypnagogic_Jerk)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2007, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-queen-abdicated/394230/68 "2007-03-08T19:45:08Z")
[QUOTE=Ice Wolf] It’s interesting that the thought goes to something replacing the monarchy in a system of government if the monarchy isn’t there. Almost as if we really can’t trust government-by-committee – there just has to be some_one_ in charge. [/QUOTE] Well, almost all countries have a head of state (Switzerland might be an exception). What system do you think New Zealand should have, if it didn’t have a monarch? ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2007, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-queen-abdicated/394230/69 "2007-03-08T20:16:03Z")
What would the United Kingdom be called if it became a republic? And if it did, would that necessarily force other Commonwealth to become republics? ---
**Author:** ![Sunspace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sunspace/32/1250_2.png) [@Sunspace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunspace)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2007, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-queen-abdicated/394230/70 "2007-03-08T20:18:19Z")
“Republic of Great Britain”? Are there any _other_ choices than “monarchy” and “republic”? ---
**Author:** ![Giles](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giles/32/60_2.png) [@Giles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giles)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2007, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-queen-abdicated/394230/71 "2007-03-08T20:27:21Z")
[QUOTE=Pleonast] What would the United Kingdom be called if it became a republic? [/QUOTE] Perhaps the United Republic of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. [QUOTE=Pleonast] And if it did, would that necessarily force other Commonwealth to become republics? [/QUOTE] No. Some Commonweakth countries are already republics (e.g., India, South Africa); and some Commonwealth countries are monarchies but with a different person as sovereign (e.g., Malaysia, Tonga). A decision would need to be made about position of Head of the Commonwealth (which is prersently held by HM the Queen), and Commonweakth members which have HM the Queen as sovereign or head of state would need to make their own constitutional decisions about which way to go. As Australia discovered about 8 years ago, thewre are several possible ways to become a republic, and making a decision about which way is likely to be controversial. ---
**Author:** ![Alive\_At\_Both\_Ends](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/73ab20/32.png) [@Alive\_At\_Both\_Ends](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alive_At_Both_Ends)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2007, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-queen-abdicated/394230/72 "2007-03-08T20:29:26Z")
[QUOTE=Sunspace] “Republic of Great Britain”? [/QUOTE] And Northern Ireland. Great Britain is not the same as the UK. > [@](#): > > Are there any _other_ choices than “monarchy” and “republic”? Not as these terms are currently used. As I said upthread: > [@](#): > > That’s the problem with talking about wanting a “republic” - it’s become a catch-all term for anything that isn’t a monarchy. A term which encompasses anything from Switzerland to North Korea. ---
**Author:** ![calm\_kiwi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9fc348/32.png) [@calm\_kiwi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/calm_kiwi)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2007, 11:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-queen-abdicated/394230/73 "2007-03-09T11:39:56Z")
[QUOTE=severus] Well, almost all countries have a head of state (Switzerland might be an exception). What system do you think New Zealand should have, if it didn’t have a monarch? [/QUOTE] I have to say again (as a NZer) I believe the Monarchy serves us rather then we serve the monarchy. We have a (especially since MMP) democratic government. The Queen/Monarchy is entirely about pomp and ceremony. She/He/It does not affect us. Many NZers enjoy the whole Royal thing but if we were not part of the Monarchy we would have a doofusy ex-politician in an equally ineffectual role. Our leader is the PM. What benefit was gained from having a president in France or Ireland? ---
**Author:** ![FRDE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e68b1a/32.png) [@FRDE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FRDE)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2007, 12:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-queen-abdicated/394230/74 "2007-03-09T12:01:25Z")
In France De Gaulle pushed through the Fifth Republic, which gave the President real power - prior to that the government was ineffectual as it was a changing coalition. Fortunately my memories of the details have been eroded. Ireland seems to have handled things, but (IMO) there are real problems involving an elected head of state, a conflict of legitimacy, and a selected head of state is not particularly ‘democratic’. It does look as if the turkeys have voted for Christmas in the UK, although the word is supposed to be that a 100% elected upper house is a ‘spoiler’, the Lords might let it through without contest, and an ‘upper house’ elected by proportional representation would eat the House of Commons for breakfast. ---
**Author:** ![Alive\_At\_Both\_Ends](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/73ab20/32.png) [@Alive\_At\_Both\_Ends](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alive_At_Both_Ends)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2007, 12:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-queen-abdicated/394230/75 "2007-03-09T12:17:07Z")
[QUOTE=FRDE] It does look as if the turkeys have voted for Christmas in the UK, although the word is supposed to be that a 100% elected upper house is a ‘spoiler’, the Lords might let it through without contest, and an ‘upper house’ elected by proportional representation would eat the House of Commons for breakfast. [/QUOTE] Actually, it was a non-binding vote, just to test the waters, so to speak. It’s not a Bill, so there’s no question of it going to the Lords or passing into law. (That’s not to say that a Bill won’t be put before the House later; but the turkeys haven’t really voted for Christmas yet.) ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2007, 1:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-queen-abdicated/394230/76 "2007-03-09T13:14:44Z")
[QUOTE=Polycarp] I think if the average Brit woke up to find himself living in a republic with a president like Ireland, he’d suffer an acute case of tea shock. 😉 [/QUOTE] Has no one else recognized your dreadful pun? (I did, soon after you posted it.) ---
**Author:** ![MarcusF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/67e7ee/32.png) [@MarcusF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MarcusF)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2007, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-queen-abdicated/394230/77 "2007-03-09T13:23:33Z")
Oh, I recognised it - I was just too busy groaning to post 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2007, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-queen-abdicated/394230/78 "2007-03-09T14:06:55Z")
[QUOTE=Bridget Burke] Has no one else recognized your dreadful pun? (I did, soon after you posted it.) [/QUOTE] :smack: :smack: :smack: :smack: :smack: ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2007, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-queen-abdicated/394230/79 "2007-03-09T14:11:58Z")
[QUOTE=Sunspace] “Republic of Great Britain”? Are there any _other_ choices than “monarchy” and “republic”? [/QUOTE] Well, there’s democracy, but then you can’t declare war and have to accept peace whenever it’s offered - on the other hand you get the trade bonus, no corruption, can’t be bribed and can pump the luxury rate up to boost city growth. Or there’s fundamentalism, where no-one’s ever unhappy (and they even pay you tithes), the reputation loss for terrorist acts is reduced, your unit support costs almost vanish and you can be as much of a boor as you like in international relations, but don’t expect much of a scientific Golden Age. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2007, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-queen-abdicated/394230/80 "2007-03-09T14:34:17Z")
[QUOTE=Pleonast] What would the United Kingdom be called if it became a republic? And if it did, would that necessarily force other Commonwealth to become republics? [/QUOTE] Here’s a previous thread on this issue: [When did Canada Stop Being Part of the English Monarchy?](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=235702) **UDS** and I had a nice long discussion about the issue, **UDS** posting from the Australian perspective and me from the Canadian perspective. My basic point was that since the British Parliament no longer has the power to legislate for any of the independent Commonwealth realms, the abolition of the monarchy in the UK would not affect the other realms. **UDS** was of the view that the wording of the Australian Constitution presupposes the existence of a British monarch, and if Britain abolished the monarchy, that would also abolish it for Australia, and possibly also the other Commonwealth realms. We agreed to disagree, since we could not resolve the issue to either one’s satisfaction, which in itself is an example of the modern Commonwealth in action. 🙂 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-queen-abdicated/394230.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-queen-abdicated/394230.md?page=5)