# If the Republicans loose in 2016, would that be the end of the party as we know it? **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [August 24, 2015, 1:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-republicans-loose-in-2016-would-that-be-the-end-of-the-party-as-we-know-it/728716 "2015-08-24T13:26:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2015, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-republicans-loose-in-2016-would-that-be-the-end-of-the-party-as-we-know-it/728716/41 "2015-08-25T16:26:16Z")
> [@Fuzzy\_wuzzy](#): > > Your cites are not repudiating adahers post. Environmentalists do point out what \*\*adaher \*\*is doing is to indeed sweep away the responsibility of the ones that left that pollution in the mine, this cite explains it better: > **[Mind-boggling toxic hypocrisy at WUWT over Gold King Mine and EPA](https://blog.hotwhopper.com/2015/08/mind-boggling-toxic-hypocrisy-at-wuwt.html)** > > Global warming & climate change. Eavesdropping on climate science deniers, their weird pseudo-science and crazy conspiracy theories. > [@](#): > > The point of this article is that both Paul and Anthony are often posting articles where they don’t want any environmental regulations. In which they want to send America back to the smog age. They don’t give a damn that toxic waste from mining operations accumulated to such an extent that this accident occurred. All they care about is trashing the people who have come in to try to contain or clean up the mess that the grossly negligent miners left behind. > > Nowhere in the WUWT article or the comments is there any finger pointing at the companies and people that caused the water to get so toxic in the first place. Nowhere is there a call for companies and people to be held responsible for toxic dumps. > > No, it’s all about how it’s all the fault of the Environmental Protection Agency - the very agency that is trying to do something to clean up the mess left behind by the mates of the anti-environment brigade. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2015, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-republicans-loose-in-2016-would-that-be-the-end-of-the-party-as-we-know-it/728716/42 "2015-08-25T17:53:30Z")
Which is an advocate’s way of saying, “They want a Superfund site despite local opposition and will do anything to get one.” The mine was closed and there was no need to go in there. There are many mines like that in the area, and we as now know, cleanup is a greater risk than just letting them be. But at the risk of getting off track, I was just trying to make the point that there are reforms that can make problems like this if not go away, then at least create some accountability for the officials who screw up. In war, we know exactly which officers gave which orders and bad officers get turfed for costly errors. We need to institute similar accountability in the civilian federal workforce. Someone made a really bad call, despite complaints for years from local businesses and citizens. Then they failed to tell the state about the disaster in a timely manner. Someone should be fired, but of course no one will be. That culture of no accountability has to change. We also need to get rid of “mission creep”, where agencies expand their mission with no input from elected officials, beyond what Congress intended when they authorized the agency. ---
**Author:** ![dracoi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/90db22/32.png) [@dracoi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dracoi)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2015, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-republicans-loose-in-2016-would-that-be-the-end-of-the-party-as-we-know-it/728716/43 "2015-08-25T18:02:48Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Which is an advocate’s way of saying, “They want a Superfund site despite local opposition and will do anything to get one.” > > The mine was closed and there was no need to go in there. There are many mines like that in the area, and we as now know, cleanup is a greater risk than just letting them be. If leaving the pollution in place is the lower risk strategy, then I’m sure the EPA will take those peer-reviewed studies into account in updating their methodology. There are scientific studies, right? In the meantime, this just sounds like more of the thinking of the Republican party that makes me sick and tired of associating with it. “There’s only one way to think! We don’t have to compromise on anything! Let’s just campaign on a mindless platform of unachievable absolutes!” ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2015, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-republicans-loose-in-2016-would-that-be-the-end-of-the-party-as-we-know-it/728716/44 "2015-08-25T18:06:15Z")
And if the EPA isn’t using scientific studies, what are the consequences? Is the EPA accountable to the President and the President accountable to voters? Until that changes, nothing else matters. THey can use peer reviewed studies or they can act in the interests of their employees and make sure there’s enough work to justify their budget. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2015, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-republicans-loose-in-2016-would-that-be-the-end-of-the-party-as-we-know-it/728716/45 "2015-08-25T18:32:21Z")
The Republicans should put forth a comprehensive government reform plan. A few things that are my ideas and others that have been suggested by think tanks: 1. All enforcement-related documentation must be signed by the official taking the enforcement action. No stamping the Cabinet official’s name on forms. 2. All GAO or IG reports finding deficiencies judged as serious must go directly to the President, where he must read and sign. Never again should a President be able to say that he read about a major agency failure in the newspaper. 3. Further, all GAO or IG reports finding serious deficiencies and including recommendations, said recommendations will be the same as an agency regulatory power. Agencies must make the changes recommended, and if they do not, the IG should have the power to initiate termination proceedings against whichever agency officials were tasked with implementing the new regulations and failed. If no one was tasked, that’s a choice the President has made. Therefore, the PResident can be held accountable for having read, signed off on, and chosen to take no action on, a serious deficiency in the federal government. 4. Presidents shall not be allowed to expand the scope of regulatory agencies in the absence of a statute expressly authorizing such mission creep. 5. Congress shall have to approve all regulations estimated by scientific studies to cost more than $100 billion to the economy(this is already a bill). 6. All federal employees serve at the pleasure of the President. 7. All federal employees will be required to meet performance benchmarks, when appropriate for their job, and can be terminated for failure to meet them at the discretion of their supervisors and management. 8. The concept of Yelp will be implemented for all federal agencies that face customers. Citizens will be encouraged to rate their experiences, and multiple complaints against specific employees will be thoroughly investigated and referred for possible retraining, suspension, or termination should the complaints be legitimate. 9. Failure to comply with FOIA requests will be judged a criminal offense. 10. All federal agencies must post data on their performance meeting their mission goals on the internet. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2015, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-republicans-loose-in-2016-would-that-be-the-end-of-the-party-as-we-know-it/728716/46 "2015-08-25T18:35:05Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > THey can use peer reviewed studies or they can act in the interests of their employees and make sure there’s enough work to justify their budget. You think they have to make work in order to find enough to do to use up their budget? Dude, neither of us will live to see the day when our environment is in such good shape that the EPA has to work at finding things to do within their legal mandate. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2015, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-republicans-loose-in-2016-would-that-be-the-end-of-the-party-as-we-know-it/728716/47 "2015-08-25T18:41:16Z")
That’s precisely what it is alleged they were doing in Colorado. And the latest doesn’t make them look good: [http://www.gjsentinel.com/opinion/articles/shaming-the-epa-has-become-a-blood-sport](http://www.gjsentinel.com/opinion/articles/shaming-the-epa-has-become-a-blood-sport) > [@](#): > > Things went from bad to worse after internal documents released Friday showed agency officials knew of the potential for a catastrophic blowout of tainted water, but didn’t have a solid plan in place if were to occur. So now questions are starting to formulate about whether the EPA took the proper steps to prevent the accident. The editorial goes on to praise the EPA and say they are doing needed work in Colorado, but even if you believe what they were doing was right, which is really a discussion for another thread, the EPA has acted here without accountability. They knew about the potential for disaster, had no plan to minimize the risk, and then didn’t tell anyone they’d screwed up(gotta get your stories straight first I guess.) What we need is greater accountability. Companies that do this kind of thing face major consequences and are pilloried by the media, all the way up to the CEO. Whereas government failures are usually covered in an “Oh well what can you do?” narrative, and accountability never goes to the top. If the buck even stops anywhere at all. This is a clear case of government failure and it is more than likely that no one will be fired. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2015, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-republicans-loose-in-2016-would-that-be-the-end-of-the-party-as-we-know-it/728716/48 "2015-08-25T18:55:56Z")
> [@](#): > > And if the EPA isn’t using scientific studies, what are the consequences? Is the EPA accountable to the President and the President accountable to voters? Yes to both. Why, is that something that you think needs to be changed? ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2015, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-republicans-loose-in-2016-would-that-be-the-end-of-the-party-as-we-know-it/728716/49 "2015-08-25T19:05:37Z")
That’s only true on paper. In practice, the President is rarely held accountable for agency failures, and thus the agency is not accountable to voters. The President has dodged a lot of responsibility by claiming he didn’t know about things. So a major reform that needs to be done is to use the government’s existing self-regulatory apparatus(the GAO and IGs) to ensure that the President will know about major problems and can’t claim he didn’t know. That would reintroduce accountability into the process. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2015, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-republicans-loose-in-2016-would-that-be-the-end-of-the-party-as-we-know-it/728716/50 "2015-08-25T19:18:47Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > What we need is greater accountability. Companies that do this kind of thing face major consequences and are pilloried by the media, all the way up to the CEO. And in this case the companies that left that pollution there should not be talked about here because? This of course it does not exonerate the EPA for the screw up, but as I noted the idea is to ignore the elephant in the room. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2015, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-republicans-loose-in-2016-would-that-be-the-end-of-the-party-as-we-know-it/728716/51 "2015-08-25T20:34:17Z")
> [@Tom\_Tildrum](#): > > Younger people get older over time, though. The hope is that, by holding moderate, or even liberal views when they are younger, they will be less extreme when older. Many of the generation that now dominate the GOP were kids during some rather tumultuous times that featured lots of social upheaval that may have colored their perception. When you grow up being taught that being gay was a disease, or blacks were criminals and didn’t deserve rights, that affects your thought for the rest of your life. Now, most younger people don’t even consider gay marriage to be a debatable issue, so comfortable are they with different family types. These young adults should have a mellowing effect on the more extreme anti-gay or anti-whatever views of their elders ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2015, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-republicans-loose-in-2016-would-that-be-the-end-of-the-party-as-we-know-it/728716/52 "2015-08-25T20:52:27Z")
> [@Fuzzy\_wuzzy](#): > > Your cites are not repudiating adahers post. Yeah, five years after the BP spill (don’t forget it killed 11 people), one guy got probation, so far. And the most serious charges still pending are for low-level employees. Maybe the CEO avoided accountability by not knowing what was going on. > [@adaher](#): > > The Republicans should put forth a comprehensive government reform plan. A few things that are my ideas and others that have been suggested by think tanks: > > 1. All enforcement-related documentation must be signed by the official taking the enforcement action. No stamping the Cabinet official’s name on forms. > > 2. All GAO or IG reports finding deficiencies judged as serious must go directly to the President, where he must read and sign. Never again should a President be able to say that he read about a major agency failure in the newspaper. > > 3. Further, all GAO or IG reports finding serious deficiencies and including recommendations, said recommendations will be the same as an agency regulatory power. Agencies must make the changes recommended, and if they do not, the IG should have the power to initiate termination proceedings against whichever agency officials were tasked with implementing the new regulations and failed. If no one was tasked, that’s a choice the President has made. Therefore, the PResident can be held accountable for having read, signed off on, and chosen to take no action on, a serious deficiency in the federal government. > > 4. Presidents shall not be allowed to expand the scope of regulatory agencies in the absence of a statute expressly authorizing such mission creep. > > 5. Congress shall have to approve all regulations estimated by scientific studies to cost more than $100 billion to the economy(this is already a bill). > > 6. All federal employees serve at the pleasure of the President. > > 7. All federal employees will be required to meet performance benchmarks, when appropriate for their job, and can be terminated for failure to meet them at the discretion of their supervisors and management. > > 8. The concept of Yelp will be implemented for all federal agencies that face customers. Citizens will be encouraged to rate their experiences, and multiple complaints against specific employees will be thoroughly investigated and referred for possible retraining, suspension, or termination should the complaints be legitimate. > > 9. Failure to comply with FOIA requests will be judged a criminal offense. > > 10. All federal agencies must post data on their performance meeting their mission goals on the internet. All these new rules and procedures that must be implemented and maintained; that’ll make the government smaller for sure! ---
**Author:** ![BigAppleBucky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigapplebucky/32/178_2.png) [@BigAppleBucky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigAppleBucky)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2015, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-republicans-loose-in-2016-would-that-be-the-end-of-the-party-as-we-know-it/728716/53 "2015-08-25T23:50:50Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > Doesn’t make sense; there are campaign contribution limits. Well, there used to be. ---
**Author:** ![BigAppleBucky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigapplebucky/32/178_2.png) [@BigAppleBucky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigAppleBucky)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2015, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-republicans-loose-in-2016-would-that-be-the-end-of-the-party-as-we-know-it/728716/54 "2015-08-26T00:06:40Z")
> [@Tom\_Tildrum](#): > > Gerrymandering a governorship is difficult. And Democratic billionaires lately [have](http://www.politico.com/story/2015/01/blue-billionaires-on-top-114151.html) [outspent](http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/democratic-billionaires-outdo-gop-in-super-pac-contributions/article/2555282) the Republican ones. Only in disclosed money. In dark money the Republican lead is tremendous. From your link: > [@](#): > > Of course, that edge doesn’t take into account contributions to deep-pocketed non-profit groups that don’t disclose their donors. They heavily favored Republicans, with reports showing conservative secret money non-profits outspending liberal ones $127 million to $33 million. While that’s just a fraction of the overall undisclosed money spent in 2014, it’s indicative of a dramatic imbalance in a type of big money spending that likely would close the gap between Democratic and Republican top donors, if not put Republicans ahead. > > For instance, the network of mostly secret-money non-profit groups helmed by the billionaire industrialist Koch brothers was on pace to spend $290 million in 2014. Yet David and Charles Koch, who Democrats worked to vilify as the very personifications of the corrupting effect of big money in politics, ranked as only the 10th and 29th biggest givers of disclosed cash in POLITICO’s analysis. Disclosed money has some advantages in that it is legal for the campaign to coordinate where it goes. Dark money, at least legally, should not coordinate with campaigns. Though as the recent decision in Wisconsin has shown, that law is kaput and practically dark money works the same way as direct disclosed campaign contributions. So, the Republicans have more. Much more. Just by themselves the Kochs plan on spending nearly a billion this cycle. Commercial TV will be unwatchable next summer and fall. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2015, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-republicans-loose-in-2016-would-that-be-the-end-of-the-party-as-we-know-it/728716/55 "2015-08-26T00:20:19Z")
> [@Tom\_Tildrum](#): > > The Republican won the popular vote in 2004. You are right. I stand corrected. Of course, he won as an incumbent with the smallest popular margin for an incumbent victory in U.S. history, just barely exceeding 50% of the vote, during a war, (that he started), but he did win the popular vote. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2015, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-republicans-loose-in-2016-would-that-be-the-end-of-the-party-as-we-know-it/728716/56 "2015-08-26T01:36:43Z")
> [@BigAppleBucky](#): > > So, the Republicans have more. Much more. Just by themselves the Kochs plan on spending nearly a billion this cycle. Commercial TV will be unwatchable next summer and fall. I still think that the Media does put down leading candidates because they do know that only if it is a horse race, with a few points of difference, that then the gravy train will be fabulous; as both sides will put more money on commercial media to advertise in contested states. ---
**Author:** ![dalej42](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@dalej42](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dalej42)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2015, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-republicans-loose-in-2016-would-that-be-the-end-of-the-party-as-we-know-it/728716/57 "2015-08-26T02:48:05Z")
A Republican loss won’t be the end of the party. But the anti immigrant and fundamentalist base is going to make it very difficult for a presidential candidate to get past the primaries without pandering and being forced to take even more extreme positions. Perhaps a smaller field of candidates would allow one candidate to take more moderate positions. Maybe the party will find a way to squeeze out some of the candidates running just to sell books. 2020 will be an interesting election. That’s the next census and redistricting election. Heavier turnout should favor Democrats and there hopefully won’t be a massive recession and heavily unpopular government bailouts dominating the news. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2015, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-republicans-loose-in-2016-would-that-be-the-end-of-the-party-as-we-know-it/728716/58 "2015-08-26T03:05:33Z")
Actually, 2018 AND 2020 are redistricting elections. A lot of state legislative seats are four years and many of those reps that draw boundaries will be elected in the 2018 midterms. Governors also are mostly elected in 2018, which matters in states where governors have to sign the redistricting plans. So yes, Democrats will probably have a better hand dealt to them in 2020 than they did in 2010, but Republicans will still dominate the redistricting process in most states if they have a better election in 2018 than Democrats have in 2020. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2015, 5:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-republicans-loose-in-2016-would-that-be-the-end-of-the-party-as-we-know-it/728716/59 "2015-08-26T05:23:08Z")
> [@](#): > > 1. All federal employees serve at the pleasure of the President. Yeah. Let’s return to the spoils system. That has always served us well and never presented a problem. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2015, 5:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-republicans-loose-in-2016-would-that-be-the-end-of-the-party-as-we-know-it/728716/60 "2015-08-26T05:30:57Z")
Of course, we’d also add that federal employees enjoy the same protections from unlawlful firings as private sector employees. Plus if there were politically motivated firings a President would rightfully catch hell, as GWB did when he fired US attorneys for political reasons. However, you can’t expect a President to be accountable for the performance of agencies he oversees if he can’t fire people other than the ones he appointed. Either the bureaucracy is subject to the voters’ will through the President or it isn’t. If it isn’t, we no longer live in a democracy. Besides, the spoils system involves HIRING as well as firing. Civil service laws would still apply. The President would not be able to replace people he doesn’t like with people he does. The system would still hire based on civil service standards. But the President does need the power to fire people who aren’t performing. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-republicans-loose-in-2016-would-that-be-the-end-of-the-party-as-we-know-it/728716.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-republicans-loose-in-2016-would-that-be-the-end-of-the-party-as-we-know-it/728716.md?page=4)