# If the Road Map fails, could Benny Elon's plan succeed? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 13, 2003, 11:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-road-map-fails-could-benny-elons-plan-succeed/188139 "2003-07-13T11:57:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2003, 11:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-road-map-fails-could-benny-elons-plan-succeed/188139/1 "2003-07-13T11:57:56Z")
Israel’s Tourism Minister Benny Elon is preparing for what he believes is the predestined failure of the road map. He has proposed a [rather radical plan](http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/A/JPArticle/ShowFull&cid=1057813448750) as the next step. It’s offered as a basis for debate. Could the Elon plan work? What’s good and bad about it? The details are: > [@](#): > > **The PA** > Immediate dissolution of the Palestinian Authority, a non-viable entity whose existence precludes the termination of the conflict. > > **Terror** > Israel will uproot the Palestinian terror infrastructure. All arms will be collected, incitement will be stopped and all the refugee camps, which serve as incubators for terror, will be dismantled. Terrorists and their direct supporters will be deported. > > **Jordan** > Israel, the US and the international community will recognize the Kingdom of Jordan as the only legitimate representative of the Palestinians. Jordan will once again recognize itself as the Palestinian nation-state. > > In the context of a regional development program, Israel, the US and the international community will put forth a concerted effort for the long-term development of Jordan, to rehabilitate its economy and enable it to absorb a limited number of refugees within its borders. > > **The territories** > Israeli sovereignty will be asserted over Judea, Samaria and Gaza. The Arab residents of these areas will become citizens of the Palestinian state in Jordan. The status of these citizens, their connection to the two states and the manner of administration of their communal lives will be decided in an agreement between the governments of Israel and Jordan (Palestine). > > **Refugees** > Israel, the US and the international community will allocate resources for the completion of the exchange of populations that began in 1948, as well as the full rehabilitation of the refugees and their absorption and naturalization in various countries. > > **Normalization** > After implementation of the above stages, Israel and Jordan (Palestine) will declare the conflict terminated. Both sides will work to normalize peaceful relations between all parties in the region. ---
**Author:** ![yola](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/48db29/32.png) [@yola](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yola)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2003, 12:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-road-map-fails-could-benny-elons-plan-succeed/188139/2 "2003-07-13T12:12:47Z")
Now, come on, thats ancient his-story. ---
**Author:** ![istara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e79b87/32.png) [@istara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/istara)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2003, 12:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-road-map-fails-could-benny-elons-plan-succeed/188139/3 "2003-07-13T12:13:14Z")
:LOL: What’s _good_ about it? :LOL: :LOL: :LOL: ---
**Author:** ![Kal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/9de053/32.png) [@Kal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kal)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2003, 12:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-road-map-fails-could-benny-elons-plan-succeed/188139/4 "2003-07-13T12:41:17Z")
Kal’s radical plan: Deport everybody and turn it into a Holy Land theme park - I suggest it be called HolyDisney. Anybody who kicks up too much of a fuss about leaving will be offered a job as a cast member (Note to self: May not be a good idea to offer the role of one of the three little pigs). Come on! What could be better than a few rollercoaster rides and a go on a log flume before seeing the Church of the Nativity with Jesus’ birth being acted out by Disney characters? I’m going to get me wax crayons out and draw up some plans, I’ll need to show 'em to the UN and the Walt Disney Company. ---
**Author:** ![Neurotik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/91b2a8/32.png) [@Neurotik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Neurotik)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2003, 12:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-road-map-fails-could-benny-elons-plan-succeed/188139/5 "2003-07-13T12:58:07Z")
I don’t think Jordan wants to be the representative/homeland of the Palestinian people. So that’s a problem right there. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2003, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-road-map-fails-could-benny-elons-plan-succeed/188139/6 "2003-07-13T18:40:14Z")
Hmm… I just get ‘The page cannot be displayed’, so I’ll have to go by your precis. This is not a nice solution but it is a sensible one. It is one that shows the author has learned from history - Yugoslavia, Ireland, Africa passim. There are only three ways that the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is going to end: 1 - No more Jews 2 - No more Palestinians 3 - The two populations interbreed significantly. 1 and 2 are not going to happen as there are significant populations on both sides outside the conflict area 3 is NOT going to happen in the short term. The Palestinians are taught to hate the Israelis from their earliest years - who can forget those pictures of children dressed as suicide bombers? Borders are best when they are natural barriers like the Jordan, not some straight line on a map - see the misery that has caused in Africa. I don’t _like_ it; I see the **sense** in it. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2003, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-road-map-fails-could-benny-elons-plan-succeed/188139/7 "2003-07-14T00:44:03Z")
Elon’s plan isn’t practical. Forget for a minute that there’s no way in hell the Arabs would accept it, and the international community would scream their heads off, Moledet doesn’t even have the support of the Israelis. The entire Ha-ichud Ha-leumi group only has 7 seats, and nobody outside of National Unity supports transfer. Whether it would have been better if there were no Arabs in Israel and the West Bank or not, Israel’s stuck with their presence there, and that’s not going to change. Elon would do best to stay in America and hug more Fundimentalist Christians. ---
**Author:** ![Publius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c57346/32.png) [@Publius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Publius)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2003, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-road-map-fails-could-benny-elons-plan-succeed/188139/8 "2003-07-14T00:49:55Z")
I would like very much for anyone who approves of this proposal to explain why it should not be considered ethnic cleansing. ---
**Author:** ![Brutus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/91b2a8/32.png) [@Brutus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brutus)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2003, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-road-map-fails-could-benny-elons-plan-succeed/188139/9 "2003-07-14T01:35:07Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Publius \* > \*\*I would like very much for anyone who approves of this proposal to explain why it should not be considered ethnic cleansing. \*\* I will gladly stand in line to call the plan, “Stupid as all heck”, but ‘ethnic cleansing’? Uh, no. Where do you get ‘ethnic cleansing’ from this plan, anyways? ---
**Author:** ![Publius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c57346/32.png) [@Publius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Publius)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2003, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-road-map-fails-could-benny-elons-plan-succeed/188139/10 "2003-07-14T01:54:31Z")
> [@](#): > > Israeli sovereignty will be asserted over Judea, Samaria and Gaza. The Arab residents of these areas will become citizens of the Palestinian state in Jordan. I doubt very much that they’d be moving voluntarily. ---
**Author:** ![Publius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c57346/32.png) [@Publius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Publius)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2003, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-road-map-fails-could-benny-elons-plan-succeed/188139/11 "2003-07-14T02:13:53Z")
I should clarify that, while the quote that I selected does not by itself **necessarily** mean that this plan is tantamount to ethnic cleansing, a larger overview of the plan certainly makes it appear that way. It is _possible_, I will admit, that Elon merely wishes the Palestinians to be citizens of Jordan while remaining residents of the West Bank and Gaza. In depriving them of the rights of citizenship in their own homeland, however, Elon paves the way for legitimized Israeli settlers to accelerate the trend that they have already begun without annexation of “Judea and Samaria” :rolleyes: in gradually de-Arabizing the Territories. These other quotes also smack of desired ethnic cleansing to me: > [@](#): > > Israel, the US and the international community will allocate resources for the completion of the exchange of populations that began in 1948, as well as the full rehabilitation of the refugees and their absorption and naturalization in various countries. > [@](#): > > all the refugee camps, which serve as incubators for terror, will be dismantled. I assume that by the “exchange of populations” Elon refers to the Palestinian exodus into neighboring Arab countries. The impression that I get from that statement the rest of his “peace plan” is that Elon considers “Judea and Samaria” to be indisputably Israeli territories, and that the demographics of their populations must come to reflect this. As for the dismantling of refugee camps - where would those people go, and what are the chances that they would go there willingly? ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2003, 4:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-road-map-fails-could-benny-elons-plan-succeed/188139/12 "2003-07-14T04:29:29Z")
Short answer to the OP. No. Elon’s plan could not work. Dismantling the PA and the camps by force? That would be urban warfare on a scale that would make the ambushes of the IDF and the IDF excessive responses at Jenin look like a playground squabble. There is little way that such would not effectively result in ethnic cleansing even if such was in no way its intention. Jordan assuming the role of the Palestinian homeland? No way. The back up plan for Israel is the Great Fence and unilateral withdrawl behind it. And locking it tight. ---
**Author:** ![mama2nate\_anna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a9a28c/32.png) [@mama2nate\_anna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mama2nate_anna)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2003, 5:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-road-map-fails-could-benny-elons-plan-succeed/188139/13 "2003-07-14T05:28:37Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Publius \* > \*\*I would like very much for anyone who approves of this proposal to explain why it should not be considered ethnic cleansing. \*\* Don’t recall seeing any killing involved. Prior to Partition there was no Palestinian homeland or nation of Jordan. The nation of Jordan was created to be this homeland. And if you’ve looked at a map you will notice that the Jordanians got a pretty big chunk there. ---
**Author:** ![Publius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c57346/32.png) [@Publius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Publius)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2003, 5:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-road-map-fails-could-benny-elons-plan-succeed/188139/14 "2003-07-14T05:40:57Z")
Killing, while certainly required for a genocide, is not usually considered necessary for mere [ethnic cleansing](http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=ethnic%20cleansing) in my experience with the term. Furthermore, the British partition of their League of Nations mandate of Transjordan was merely administrative in nature, and was not designed to serve as the basis for any future Jewish-Arab division. In fact, when the British finally threw up their hands and turned the question of a Jewish state in Palestine over to the United Nations, the proposed [partition](http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/History/partmap.html) was much less favorable to Israel than any even remotely realistic proposal since. Regardless of what the United Nations intended, however, I strongly believe in the right of individuals to live as free men and women in the land of their birth. For this reason I applaud measures taken by the State of Israel to defend itself, through legitimate means, against groups that seek its destruction. For this same reason, however, I deplore any plan that denies that the Palestinian people have a right to a sovereign, self-representative government in the land in which they live, or that maintains they have less of a right to do so than settlers of another culture and from another nation. I doubly deplore any proposal that denies this right to Palestinians and Jordanians alike. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2003, 6:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-road-map-fails-could-benny-elons-plan-succeed/188139/15 "2003-07-14T06:52:02Z")
Oh God, not Beny Elon. There’s a reason he’s Tourism Minister, you know - not even Sharon would put a right-wing nutjob like that in a position of _real_ power. Ignore anything he says. You can be sure everyone else is. ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2003, 8:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-road-map-fails-could-benny-elons-plan-succeed/188139/16 "2003-07-14T08:05:01Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by mama2nate&anna \* > > Prior to Partition there was no Palestinian homeland Correct, in the sense of a modern nation-state. Arguable in the sense of Palestinians living in the region, of course. > [@](#): > > or nation of Jordan. No, Jordan was created well pre-Partition ( “THE Partition” usually referring to the Israel/Palestine separation compromise of the 1940’s ) in 1921. I wouldn’t even say it was administrative as **Publius** phrased it, though that was how it was cast at the time. It was in part a buy-off of the Hashemite dynasty ( very important British clients at the time )and part acceptance of a fait accompli, wherein the Hashemites had already made a move into the Transjordan in force, bringing with them mobile Bedouin support that would by both problematic and apolitic to root out ( and at that the French had already forcibly ejected the Hashemites from Syria, which they also claimed ). > [@](#): > > The nation of Jordan was created to be this homeland. No, again. There were no “Palestinians” in the Transjordan, almost by definition, when it was created. The people that came to be known as the Palestinians were the West Bank Arabs, a group in certain minor, but politically recognizable ways, culturally distinct from the ( far less populous ) East Bankers of the Transjordan ( to which can be added the semi-Arabized Circassians and the Bedouin that migrated in with the Hashemites in the 1910’s and 1920’s ). - Tamerlane ---
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/original/2X/e/e489c3b7d8fce19c4b355dd4fc3f88cc39c34b87.png) [@system](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2003, 8:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-road-map-fails-could-benny-elons-plan-succeed/188139/17 "2003-07-14T08:17:36Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by mama2nate&anna \* > \*\*Don’t recall seeing any killing involved. > > Prior to Partition there was no Palestinian homeland or nation of Jordan. The nation of Jordan was created to be this homeland. And if you’ve looked at a map you will notice that the Jordanians got a pretty big chunk there. \*\* Prior to partition there was no ISrael nor had there been a Jewish nation for thousands of years. So the fuck what. Nor was Jordan created to be “this homeland” that is ignorant ahistorical tripe and pure propaganda mongering. As to the “pretty big chunk” - chunk of what? The Desert? There is a narrow strip of viable land, water resource wise, and a lot of empty fucking desert. What is useful in the presentation of Elon’s plan is for readers to see exactely what many Palestinians fear: (a) the Road Map is a farce and Israel intends, slowly or quickly to pursue the Elon plan. (b) That the West will be duped by Likoudnik agitprop into thinking this is “reasonable” and that Jordan is a Palestinian state (the reality is that it is not. The State is more or less controlled by Bedou factions fairly hostile to the Palestinians as anyone who spends any time in country finds out.) I find it amusing that december presents this, but for once he has done a service, if only to illustrate where Palestinian fears come from. I note on preview Tamerlane’s intervention. I should clarify in re Jordan: Jordan can be best thought of being made up of four groups. (a) The North (West) Jordanians. Settled agriculturalists from long date, often politically associated with either the West Bank populations or Syria. Similar social structures and backgrounds. North West Jordan is fairly well watered and green. (b) East Bank - Center. Much of this population is of Circassian/Russian/Causacian origin. Refugees from the period in the 19th century when Russia was conquering the region of Georgia, Chechnya and the Causases generally. Settled the largely abandoned and depopulated East Bank area. To this day, while having shifted to Arabic speech in large part, consider themselves a group apart and signficant numbers retain the ancestral language as well as Russian! (Had a bizarre moment some time back travelling with an investor who had spent time in Russia. I stopped to chat with a security official - Jordanian security is heavily pop by Bedou and Circassians - who turned out to be Circassian. He and my investor then launched into a fluent conversation in Russian. The fellow later reported the man’s Russian was strange but good.) Circassians have been in place for about 100 years, took over abandoned land. © Center - South - Bedouine / Bedou: the core of the Hashemite monarchy, tribal ties to Eastern Saudi Arabia, traditionally allied with the Hashemites. Core of the state, basically distrust everyone else. It should be noted that the Bedouine were present in the region before 1920, but really ‘took power’ at that stage. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2003, 8:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-road-map-fails-could-benny-elons-plan-succeed/188139/18 "2003-07-14T08:22:50Z")
Col, Benny Elon is not a Likudnik. I have my problems with the Likud, and I’ve never voted for them, but they’re not nearly as extreme as the foreign press portarys them - they’re more moderate than, say, the Republican party. ---
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/original/2X/e/e489c3b7d8fce19c4b355dd4fc3f88cc39c34b87.png) [@system](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2003, 9:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-road-map-fails-could-benny-elons-plan-succeed/188139/19 "2003-07-14T09:18:41Z")
Fair enough, although I view Likoud as part of the problem on this specific point. ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2003, 9:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-road-map-fails-could-benny-elons-plan-succeed/188139/20 "2003-07-14T09:22:41Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Collounsbury \* > I should clarify in re Jordan: > Jordan can be best thought of being made up of **four** groups. > > (a) The North (West) Jordanians. > > (b) East Bank - Center. Much of this population is of Circassian/Russian/Causacian origin > > © Center - South - Bedouine / Bedou That’s **three** :p. - Tamerlane [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-road-map-fails-could-benny-elons-plan-succeed/188139.md?page=2)