# If The Tea Party Was Actually Serious **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 15, 2010, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-tea-party-was-actually-serious/557250 "2010-10-15T15:37:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 15
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2010, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-tea-party-was-actually-serious/557250/283 "2010-10-21T19:38:10Z")
> [@emacknight](#): > > So one could just as easily turn the question around, at what point is a tax rate too high? Anything above a 50% top marginal federal income tax rate should be reserved for special situations, butI’m OK with federal income tax rates up to about 50%. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2010, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-tea-party-was-actually-serious/557250/284 "2010-10-21T19:40:21Z")
> [@emacknight](#): > > You had me until pork. What exactly do you think pork and pet projects are? Your tone suggests that you really have no idea, but are simply spouting partisan rhetoric. > > Near where I used to live a $5million bike/pedestrian bridge was built over a busy roadway. It was the direct result of pork barrel politics, our senator’s vote was essentially bought for $5million. > > Well, turns out, the bridge is great (although not perfect). It connected a massive series of bike/pedestrian pathways that run throughout the city and are heavily used. That bridge dramatically improved quality of life in the city. It meant jobs during construction. And it looks kind of cool at night. > > Now, that trail system represents one of the top 3 reasons we still live here, without it we’d have moved years ago, along with our income and investments. Our employers would have lost out. If the city got worse, they’d have a harder time retaining employees. > > Do you see now the circle of life, I mean taxes? Private industry isn’t going to build a multipurpose trail system, government (aka taxes) will. The trails improve quality of life, and make a city more desirable. If the city/state/fed cut business taxes, and then cut funding to programs like those trails, we all end up living in shit. Why should the federal government pay for that? Why not the city or state? I’m all for cutting pork but I wonder if red staters realize that they get proportionally more pork per capita than blue states. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2010, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-tea-party-was-actually-serious/557250/285 "2010-10-21T19:43:10Z")
> [@emacknight](#): > > It is a sound government policy to make the rich happy and content so that they’ll continue to be richer, because the richer they are, the more revenue for the rest of us… Am I being whooshed here? Making rich people happy make them richer, did you mean to say making the rich richer makes them happy? And the rich getting richers means mroe revenue for the rest of us? It does for me but I’m a tax lawyer but I don’t know if thats true for everyone. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2010, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-tea-party-was-actually-serious/557250/286 "2010-10-21T19:46:19Z")
> [@Airbeck](#): > > How could anyone not be able to live on the same percentage of 250,000 that they do now, plus what, 65% of everything above? Is this really enough to make a believable sob story? Its kind of hard to swallow. I know plenty of people who couldn’t live on $250K/year but they are used to making over $million/year. They can spare the extra 40K in taxes but if we went bak to a 1950’s tax structure, they wouldn’t be able to make ends meet without seriously altering their lifestyle. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2010, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-tea-party-was-actually-serious/557250/287 "2010-10-21T19:46:42Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > I’m all for cutting pork but I wonder if red staters realize that they get proportionally more pork per capita than blue states. Of course not! All red-state conservatives are self-made people! They didn’t get any benefits from an orderly society with police and fire protection, (fairly) well-maintained roads, or schooling for all citizens. They’re doing just fine with their local military bases, defense contractor factories, FEMA tornado/flood/hurricane aid, and food stamps to keep their trailer parks solvent. No need for federal interventions! ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2010, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-tea-party-was-actually-serious/557250/288 "2010-10-21T19:55:04Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > It’s designed to streamline the tax system. > > Imagine the IRS and all the paperwork associated with it gone. You have no idea what you are talking about do you? Look at the tax code sometime. The FAIR tax simply shifts tax burdens from one group to the next. It is no simpler than what we have now and even if it was a bit simpler to begin with, it would become complicated again within a couple of decades. We undoubtedly need comprehensive tax reform but the Fair tax is about the stupidest proposal out there (which means its probably the one we will end up going with) ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2010, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-tea-party-was-actually-serious/557250/289 "2010-10-21T19:59:56Z")
> [@amarone](#): > > This is already done to collect sales taxes for the states, so why do you think collecting a Federal sales tax would be so difficult? Because enforcement is very hard when people decide to give discounts for cash. > [@](#): > > Again, it has already been done. Bartering must currently be declared as income. This would just be changed such that it must be declared as a purchase. Bartering already has all sorts of enforcement issues. Ask any state tax adminsitrator what sort of compliance rate they get on sales tax collection. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2010, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-tea-party-was-actually-serious/557250/290 "2010-10-21T20:02:02Z")
> [@Robot\_Arm](#): > > Maybe it wouldn’t be all that difficult, but the Fair Tax site makes it sound like all the tax collecting bureaucracy will be swept away if we change to the Fair Tax. I’m just trying to point out that the tax won’t magically collect itself. I think the idea is that there are fewer people selling stuff than buying stuff. In the end it just shifts the tax burden from one group of people to another. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2010, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-tea-party-was-actually-serious/557250/291 "2010-10-21T20:06:10Z")
> [@Robot\_Arm](#): > > Did you read the website? It includes an interesting, and may I say, novel, proposal to make it at least slightly progressive (don’t know if they use that term or not). Every household would get a check, every month, equal to the amount of tax that would be spent by a family living at the poverty level. The call it a prebate. (Essentially, you pay no tax to live at the poverty level, everyone pays a fixed amount on any spending over and above that.) > > Still less progressive than what we have now. And sending a check to every household every month, based on the size of the family? Oh no, there’s no overhead cost or potential for fraud there. The progressivity starts flattening out pretty quickly and gets regressive once you get to the point where people can start saving significant parts of their income. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2010, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-tea-party-was-actually-serious/557250/292 "2010-10-21T20:09:03Z")
> [@Robot\_Arm](#): > > Oh sure, it would be nice not to have to bother with all the forms and paperwork every year. No need to scrap the whole thing, though; we could just make it a hell of a lot simpler. > > And I’m just not convinced that this Fair Tax would really reduce the bureaucratic overhead on the government side. Have you seen the proposal for “prebates”? Are they going to keep track of how many people live in every household in the country, every month? Do I have to file papers with the government every time someone moves into or out of my home? How much do you think the federal tax infrastructure costs? ---
**Author:** ![Algher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Algher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algher)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2010, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-tea-party-was-actually-serious/557250/293 "2010-10-21T20:15:57Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > I know plenty of people who couldn’t live on $250K/year but they are used to making over $million/year. They can spare the extra 40K in taxes but if we went bak to a 1950’s tax structure, they wouldn’t be able to make ends meet without seriously altering their lifestyle. They would be fine if it was the COMPLETE 1950s tax structure. All of their perqs form work would not be taxed (cars, meals, country club memberships, clothing allowance, etc.). They would have amazing shelters that they could use with little impact. Their kids would all have big funded trust accounts. That 1950s high marginal rate structure was chock-full of ways for the very rich to shield, hide, stash, move income PLUS the bennies from work that Congress started nailing in the 80s and on. ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2010, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-tea-party-was-actually-serious/557250/294 "2010-10-21T20:25:02Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > How much do you think the federal tax infrastructure costs? I don’t know. I just think the Fair Tax tries to make its case by promising how much simpler and cheaper things will be without the IRS, with no consideration of the complexities and costs of administering the Fair Tax itself. That strikes me as a pretty shifty debating tactic. And there are other reasons to oppose the Fair Tax, too. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2010, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-tea-party-was-actually-serious/557250/295 "2010-10-22T00:21:32Z")
We would have a lot of unemployment if we did not give tax breaks to the wealthy. Since we have cut their taxes for more than a decade, they have created tons of jobs and expanded business. All is well. Since cutting taxes to the rich creates jobs, where the hell are they? ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2010, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-tea-party-was-actually-serious/557250/296 "2010-10-22T01:08:34Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > You have no idea what you are talking about do you? > > Look at the tax code sometime. > > The FAIR tax simply shifts tax burdens from one group to the next. It is no simpler than what we have now and even if it was a bit simpler to begin with, it would become complicated again within a couple of decades. > > We undoubtedly need comprehensive tax reform but the Fair tax is about the stupidest proposal out there (which means its probably the one we will end up going with) There is no tax code as we know it in the fair tax proposal. Income tax is replaced with a consumption tax. No complex income tax forms to fill out. The IRS would cease as would the majority of jobs associated with it. ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2010, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-tea-party-was-actually-serious/557250/297 "2010-10-22T01:59:54Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > There is no tax code as we know it in the fair tax proposal. Income tax is replaced with a consumption tax. No complex income tax forms to fill out. The IRS would cease as would the majority of jobs associated with it. To be replaced by some new bureaucracy created to administer the Fair Tax. Someone bartered for something? Gotta put a dollar amount on that so they can pay the consumption tax. Issuing prebate checks? Gotta know every household in the country and the number of people living there. Someone has a baby, a child living part time with each parent, taking care of an elderly family member? Gotta keep those stats up-to-date every month. Someone lying to increase their prebate? Gotta have inspectors and auditors to investigate that. And that’s just with the proposal as it currently stands. The same pressures that led the income tax to become so complicated will still exist, so this tax would be tweaked over the years, too. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2010, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-tea-party-was-actually-serious/557250/298 "2010-10-22T02:52:42Z")
> [@Robot\_Arm](#): > > To be replaced by some new bureaucracy created to administer the Fair Tax. We already have a sales tax without a huge bureaucracy attached to it. ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2010, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-tea-party-was-actually-serious/557250/299 "2010-10-22T02:57:23Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > We already have a sales tax without a huge bureaucracy attached to it. And the prebates? ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2010, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-tea-party-was-actually-serious/557250/300 "2010-10-22T03:08:26Z")
> [@Robot\_Arm](#): > > To be replaced by some new bureaucracy created to administer the Fair Tax. > > Someone bartered for something? Gotta put a dollar amount on that so they can pay the consumption tax. Issuing prebate checks? Gotta know every household in the country and the number of people living there. Someone has a baby, a child living part time with each parent, taking care of an elderly family member? Gotta keep those stats up-to-date every month. Someone lying to increase their prebate? Gotta have inspectors and auditors to investigate that. > > And that’s just with the proposal as it currently stands. The same pressures that led the income tax to become so complicated will still exist, so this tax would be tweaked over the years, too. And don’t forget that under Fair Tax, every single business in America becomes a tax collector, with all the reporting and figuring that entails. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2010, 4:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-tea-party-was-actually-serious/557250/301 "2010-10-22T04:57:40Z")
> [@Robot\_Arm](#): > > And the prebates? Something Geitner gets for being handsome? ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2010, 5:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-tea-party-was-actually-serious/557250/302 "2010-10-22T05:19:50Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Something Geitner gets for being handsome? Have you actually read about the Fair Tax? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-tea-party-was-actually-serious/557250.md?page=14) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-tea-party-was-actually-serious/557250.md?page=16)