# If The Tea Party Was Actually Serious **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 15, 2010, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-tea-party-was-actually-serious/557250 "2010-10-15T15:37:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2010, 3:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-tea-party-was-actually-serious/557250/81 "2010-10-16T03:43:35Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > > [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > > > McD sets a price. The government sets a price. Same thing. They take in more or less. They can price it at whatever they want. > > > > The tax cut was temporary. Sorry if you can’t wrap your head around that. It is no different in principle than McDs putting a temporary decrease on some item they sell. When it goes back up no I have ever known deems it a price increase. > > There is nothing temporary about a tax rate that has existed for years and there is nothing permanent about any tax rate. The tax rate is what Congress says it is and currently it is set to go up. > > The only true tax rate is the one you’re paying now. I think you’re going to have to accept that everyone on Earth thinks one thing and you, and only you, think something else. I’m sure you had to accept that before… **cough** **cough** [monkeypunchthread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=569914) **cough** **cough** ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2010, 3:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-tea-party-was-actually-serious/557250/82 "2010-10-16T03:51:08Z")
> [@Kearsen](#): > > To which I say, I am taxed enough. No you’re not, noone is taxed enough. The difference at the bottom of the scale is relatively minor, someone making 50K might pay about $500 more/year while someone making $5,000,000 might pay an additional $300,000. The tax cuts helped the high income folks a lot more than the rest of us but it helped anyone that pays income taxes. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2010, 3:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-tea-party-was-actually-serious/557250/83 "2010-10-16T03:56:09Z")
> [@Algher](#): > > The site goes through each area, shows their growth, and digs into it. More content there than anything I have seen from the Republicans or Democrats on how to cut spending. > > Yes - on some of the Departments they argue to simply kill them - HUD and Education are two of them. I agree with CATO, both of these areas should be handled at the State level. I used to respect the CATO institute but the recent surge of populism has made them actually think they have a shot at libertarian idea working their way into government and now they have started repeating half truths to keep the populists in their corner. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2010, 4:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-tea-party-was-actually-serious/557250/84 "2010-10-16T04:00:05Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Why do you think conservatives haven’t been cutting? We’ve had 30 years of cutting, there’s not a lot of stuff left to cut, but perhaps you can identify what you would cut. Starting in my town and state, they can cut the high speed rail to nowhere money, and the hybrid bus money, the solar power array that was just built to serve my area, and the money for the stupid signs announcing road construction. Moving on to California, they can cut funding to anymore half billion dollar art school buildings and ignore any suggestions to build a new subway in San Francisco. There is plenty of waste in federal, state and local projects to choose from. When you start adding up all the little pieces of the pork pie the thousands becomes millions which become billions. My community can’t afford the Christmas presents sent to other states in the last “stimulus package” any more than the other states can afford to pay for what we got. Political votes, the other white meat. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2010, 4:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-tea-party-was-actually-serious/557250/85 "2010-10-16T04:06:29Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > I think you’re going to have to accept that everyone on Earth thinks one thing and you, and only you, think something else. Really. You think the public is going to think a tax increase is not an increase? Seriously? How many years has it been in place? ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2010, 4:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-tea-party-was-actually-serious/557250/86 "2010-10-16T04:21:41Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > > [@Kearsen](#): > > > > To which I say, I am taxed enough. > > No you’re not, noone is taxed enough. The difference at the bottom of the scale is relatively minor, someone making 50K might pay about $500 more/year while someone making $5,000,000 might pay an additional $300,000. The tax cuts helped the high income folks a lot more than the rest of us but it helped anyone that pays income taxes. I just compared the mid range numbers of married couples [here](http://www.fivecentnickel.com/2010/02/15/2011-federal-income-tax-brackets-irs-income-tax-rates/)and the dollar amount is substantial. Starting with the lower bracket you’re looking at a house payment if the taxes go up. Note that this site does not know what the breakout will be but is guessing on a 3% increase. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2010, 4:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-tea-party-was-actually-serious/557250/87 "2010-10-16T04:28:28Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > > [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > > > Why do you think conservatives haven’t been cutting? We’ve had 30 years of cutting, there’s not a lot of stuff left to cut, but perhaps you can identify what you would cut. > > Starting in my town and state, they can cut the high speed rail to nowhere money, and the hybrid bus money, the solar power array that was just built to serve my area, and the money for the stupid signs announcing road construction. Moving on to California, they can cut funding to anymore half billion dollar art school buildings and ignore any suggestions to build a new subway in San Francisco. There is plenty of waste in federal, state and local projects to choose from. When you start adding up all the little pieces of the pork pie the thousands becomes millions which become billions. > > My community can’t afford the Christmas presents sent to other states in the last “stimulus package” any more than the other states can afford to pay for what we got. > Political votes, the other white meat. The point of this thread is that all of that WON’T LOWER THE DEBT. Even if all of that was cut, and taxes remain the same, it would be just a tiny portion of the deficit. That the TP’ers are not seriously proposing cuts in the Big Three (or 4 depending on how you count it) means that they are not “Actually Serious”, as per the OP. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2010, 4:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-tea-party-was-actually-serious/557250/88 "2010-10-16T04:34:47Z")
> [@Ludovic](#): > > The point of this thread is that all of that WON’T LOWER THE DEBT. Even if all of that was cut, and taxes remain the same, it would be just a tiny portion of the deficit. That the TP’ers are not seriously proposing cuts in the Big Three (or 4 depending on how you count it) means that they are not “Actually Serious”, as per the OP. to my knowledge the stimulus package has projects that have yet to start (I gave the example of high speed rail in my state). Not spending that money would remove the debt. Spending less money in the future and getting the economy back on line would increase tax revenue to pay off debt. Every household has to do this to survive. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2010, 4:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-tea-party-was-actually-serious/557250/89 "2010-10-16T04:38:12Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Not spending that money would remove the debt. Spending less money in the future and getting the economy back on line would increase tax revenue to pay off debt. Both of these are patently wrong. I chose the word debt rather than deficit, because spending less debt than before does not get rid of pre-existing debt, it merely adds new debt at a lower rate. The current debt will never be paid off without severe cuts to the major programs mentioned above or tax increases or both. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2010, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-tea-party-was-actually-serious/557250/90 "2010-10-16T04:41:36Z")
> [@Ludovic](#): > > > [@Magiver](#): > > > > Not spending that money would remove the debt. Spending less money in the future and getting the economy back on line would increase tax revenue to pay off debt. > > Both of these are patently wrong. I chose the word debt rather than deficit, because spending less debt than before does not get rid of pre-existing debt, it merely adds new debt at a lower rate. The current debt will never be paid off without severe cuts to major programs or tax increases or both. If you assume every budget has serious pork in it then removing the pork frees up funds to pay off the debt. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2010, 4:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-tea-party-was-actually-serious/557250/91 "2010-10-16T04:52:10Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > > [@Ludovic](#): > > > > Both of these are patently wrong. I chose the word debt rather than deficit, because spending less debt than before does not get rid of pre-existing debt, it merely adds new debt at a lower rate. The current debt will never be paid off without severe cuts to major programs or tax increases or both. > > If you assume every budget has serious pork in it then removing the pork frees up funds to pay off the debt. You can assume that. In this case, you’d have find pork in major parts of Social Security, Medicare, or the Military. That is, if you’re Actually Serious about paying off the debt. You may find it there, but the TP’ers have not. Their actual words show that they will not stop the debt from growing. ---
**Author:** ![emacknight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ec8ea/32.png) [@emacknight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emacknight)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2010, 4:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-tea-party-was-actually-serious/557250/92 "2010-10-16T04:56:38Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > > [@Ludovic](#): > > > > Both of these are patently wrong. I chose the word debt rather than deficit, because spending less debt than before does not get rid of pre-existing debt, it merely adds new debt at a lower rate. The current debt will never be paid off without severe cuts to major programs or tax increases or both. > > If you assume every budget has serious pork in it then removing the pork frees up funds to pay off the debt. Getting rid of pork is a good thing. But as far as debt and deficit go, it’s insignificant, but several orders of magnitude. Note, two separate concepts: [1] eliminate pork, because it’s wasteful, an easy to agree on point. [2] there isn’t enough pork to make a dent in the deficit. It’s back to the same point I made about the CATO Institute. They went and suggested cuts for the smallest parts of the federal budget. Keep the number $400billion in mind, that’s the target. If it helps, think of it like $400,000 million. Cutting $1million from a program (by passing it off to the states) just isn’t enough. It’s a good thing to do, and something that should be done. But as far as the deficit is concerned, it’s just a drop in the bucket. The reason what I said was significant with regards to the Tea Party (and to a lesser extent the Republican Party) is because those “reductions” are then used as a pretext for tax cuts. As if the two are some how even comparable. There is a massive deficit (and has been for a decade), and until that is eliminated, there can’t be tax cuts. Don’t blow smoke up my ass by telling me you’ll pay for those tax cuts by shifting some of the Dept of Ed. to the states, then acting like a champion of reducing the size of the government. Which brings us right back to the populist aspect of the movement. It seems to play so well to the entirely clueless. ---
**Author:** ![emacknight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ec8ea/32.png) [@emacknight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emacknight)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2010, 4:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-tea-party-was-actually-serious/557250/93 "2010-10-16T04:58:06Z")
> [@Ludovic](#): > > > [@Magiver](#): > > > > If you assume every budget has serious pork in it then removing the pork frees up funds to pay off the debt. > > You can assume that. In this case, you’d have find pork in major parts of Social Security, Medicare, or the Military. That is, if you’re Actually Serious about paying off the debt. You may find it there, but the TP’ers have not. Their actual words show that they will not stop the debt from growing. I will admit that at this point, the debt is far beyond our reach. All we can hope for is to stop it from growing. But we’re kidding ourselves if we think it will shrink in our life time. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2010, 5:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-tea-party-was-actually-serious/557250/94 "2010-10-16T05:08:29Z")
> [@Ludovic](#): > > > [@Magiver](#): > > > > If you assume every budget has serious pork in it then removing the pork frees up funds to pay off the debt. > > You can assume that. In this case, you’d have find pork in major parts of Social Security, Medicare, or the Military. That is, if you’re Actually Serious about paying off the debt. You may find it there, but the TP’ers have not. Their actual words show that they will not stop the debt from growing. I’ve never worked for a company that couldn’t reduce costs operating costs. With a stroke of a pen Congress can reduce pay scales for Federal workers. Either we reduce the debt or it will consume us. It’s not an option. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2010, 5:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-tea-party-was-actually-serious/557250/95 "2010-10-16T05:52:54Z")
> [@Algher](#): > > Defense is probably the hardest to carve through, and it is one of the proper functions of the Federal Government. The status of defense as a classic government function hardly justifies the sheer magnitude of the present DoD. > [@](#): > > Yes - on some of the Departments they argue to simply kill them - HUD and Education are two of them. I agree with CATO, both of these areas should be handled at the State level. That would just put the onus to tax on the states. Some states would be spending at least as much to maintain the schools, others would, well, defund the schools. Why is this desirable? Do you want education to vary widely in quality across the USA? If we were ruled absolutely by Habsburgs, we could afford to neglect public civic education. But a democracy has no excuse for that behavior. We need an educated populace in order to make democracy work; that’s why public schools were invented. I fear we have already lost three generations in much of the country. There may be no hope now but martial revolution & the end of democracy. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2010, 5:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-tea-party-was-actually-serious/557250/96 "2010-10-16T05:56:30Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > > [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > > > McD sets a price. The government sets a price. Same thing. They take in more or less. They can price it at whatever they want. > > > > The tax cut was temporary. Sorry if you can’t wrap your head around that. It is no different in principle than McDs putting a temporary decrease on some item they sell. When it goes back up no I have ever known deems it a price increase. > > There is nothing temporary about a tax rate that has existed for years and there is nothing permanent about any tax rate. The tax rate is what Congress says it is and currently it is set to go up. > > The only true tax rate is the one you’re paying now. There is something temporary about our current tax rate. It was written into the law! Good grief…look it up! It is not a secret. It was put there by a republican president with a republican congress. Temporary from the get-go. Why can’t you understand that? And why is it different fundamentally than a store having a sale for a week? Again I ask you: If a store has a sale for a week…they spell that out to their customers…do you feel they raised prices on you when that sale is over? ETA: Not to mention the current president wants to retain the lower prices for 98% of the population. Unfair to the 2%? Well, the 2% get the exact same tax cuts as everyone else on their first $250,000. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2010, 6:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-tea-party-was-actually-serious/557250/97 "2010-10-16T06:02:05Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > > [@Magiver](#): > > > > There is nothing temporary about a tax rate that has existed for years and there is nothing permanent about any tax rate. The tax rate is what Congress says it is and currently it is set to go up. > > > > The only true tax rate is the one you’re paying now. > > There is something temporary about our current tax rate. It was written into the law! Good grief…look it up! It is not a secret. > > It was put there by a republican president with a republican congress. Temporary from the get-go. > > Why can’t you understand that? And why is it different fundamentally than a store having a sale for a week? > > Again I ask you: > > If a store has a sale for a week…they spell that out to their customers…do you feel they raised prices on you when that sale is over? Of for crying out loud. They made the changes 9 years ago. If we were talking about a week of tax reductions you’d have a point. Everybody has adjusted their budget accordingly. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2010, 6:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-tea-party-was-actually-serious/557250/98 "2010-10-16T06:16:10Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > I’ve never worked for a company that couldn’t reduce costs operating costs. With a stroke of a pen Congress can reduce pay scales for Federal workers. > > Either we reduce the debt or it will consume us. It’s not an option. It just flies right past you doesn’t it? It doesn’t have a damn thing to do with civil servant salaries. Not a thing. The money is being spent on transfer payments to private citizens. And to a lesser degree on aerospace purchases, which keep private sector companies going. If you’re cutting, just cutting, you don’t get back into the black until you’ve made cuts in Medicare entitlements, Social Security payments, &/or brought on layoffs in private sector manufacturers for whom DoD is an end user. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2010, 6:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-tea-party-was-actually-serious/557250/99 "2010-10-16T06:44:39Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#): > > > [@Magiver](#): > > > > I’ve never worked for a company that couldn’t reduce costs operating costs. With a stroke of a pen Congress can reduce pay scales for Federal workers. > > > > Either we reduce the debt or it will consume us. It’s not an option. > > It just flies right past you doesn’t it? > > It doesn’t have a damn thing to do with civil servant salaries. Not a thing. The federal government is the largest employer in the United States. Salaries are one of many pieces of the budget pie that can be cut. To say we cannot manage a budget and reduce our debt is nonsense. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2010, 7:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-tea-party-was-actually-serious/557250/100 "2010-10-16T07:54:47Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Of for crying out loud. They made the changes 9 years ago. If we were talking about a week of tax reductions you’d have a point. Everybody has adjusted their budget accordingly. Good grief…how blind can you be? The sunset clause was written into the thing 9 years ago. This is a surprise to you? Are you paying any attention whatsoever? Or did you think the sunset clause actually didn’t mean anything? It was there but everyone would just forget about it or something? Seriously…what do you think it meant when they time limited this tax break? (Which is exactly analogous to a store doing a sale for some amount of time.) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-tea-party-was-actually-serious/557250.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-tea-party-was-actually-serious/557250.md?page=6)