# If The Tea Party Was Actually Serious **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 15, 2010, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-tea-party-was-actually-serious/557250 "2010-10-15T15:37:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2010, 6:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-tea-party-was-actually-serious/557250/121 "2010-10-17T06:47:11Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > > [@Magiver](#): > > > > The Democratic party tried to restore the tax code except for the upper range. This is not up for debate. > > That is not close to screwing them. They have accumulated enormous fortunes. They have a lobsided share of the wealth. That is not screwing. They have had a decade of feeding the greed. Krugman said it is like writing a check for 1.3 million dollars to the top 1200 richest Americans, once a year, every year for a decade. If that is screwing, I could use some. You are correct. it is not a debate. it is a cold hard truth. WOW. you shot left of Karl Marx on that rant. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2010, 12:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-tea-party-was-actually-serious/557250/122 "2010-10-17T12:53:23Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > > [@gonzomax](#): > > > > That is not close to screwing them. They have accumulated enormous fortunes. They have a lobsided share of the wealth. That is not screwing. They have had a decade of feeding the greed. Krugman said it is like writing a check for 1.3 million dollars to the top 1200 richest Americans, once a year, every year for a decade. If that is screwing, I could use some. You are correct. it is not a debate. it is a cold hard truth. > > WOW. you shot left of Karl Marx on that rant. Hyperbole is not funny given Poe’s law. Humor FAIL. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2010, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-tea-party-was-actually-serious/557250/123 "2010-10-17T15:02:51Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > > [@gonzomax](#): > > > > Nobody screws the rich. > > The Democratic party tried to restore the tax code except for the upper range. This is not up for debate. First off the tax breaks proposed by the Democrats (basically leaving what Bush put in) apply to the very wealthy as well. _Everyone_ gets a tax break on the first $250,000…even if you make $1 million. Second, where is the “screw the rich part”? Please show that the rich are getting screwed over here. I showed earlier how income disparity has been widening in the country and is at levels not seen since just prior to the great depression. In essence, the rich are getting richer faster than everyone else. This despite the evil progressive tax system you seem to decry. Further, the tax system is far more complex than just the marginal federal tax rate. A study was done on _all_ taxes we all pay. Guess what? With some variation overall the taxes we pay, when all is said and done, is near flat. > [@](#): > > In a study for the National Bureau of Economic Research, Boston University economists Laurence J. Kotlikoff and David Rapson have found that our all-in marginal tax rate is 40%, give or take a bit. Yes, you read that right: 40%. > > Most workers will pay about that much on each dollar of income when all taxes – federal and state income taxes, sales taxes, taxes for benefit programs, etc. – are considered. > > As a consequence, a 30-year-old couple earning only $20,000 a year has a marginal tax rate of 42.5%, while a 45-year-old couple earning $500,000 pays at 43.2%. There are some exceptions: A 30-year-old couple earning $50,000 a year, for instance, pays 24.4%, and a 60-year-old couple making $150,000 a year faces a tax rate of 47.7%. > > The average marginal tax rate on incomes between $20,000 and $500,000 is 40.3%, the median tax rate is 41.8%, and the standard deviation of all of those rates is 5.3 percentage points. Basically, most of us pay about 40%, plus or minus 5.3 percentage points. > > That’s not a big range, particularly when you notice that it covers an income rise of 2,500%. > > SOURCE: [http://articles.moneycentral.msn.com/Taxes/Advice/YourRealTaxRate40.aspx](http://articles.moneycentral.msn.com/Taxes/Advice/YourRealTaxRate40.aspx) Now consider what you get for that money. Do you have the same access to government and affecting its laws as, say, Rupert Murdoch or Warren Buffet or Bill Gates? I am betting you don’t…not even close. Take corporate welfare: > [@](#): > > Federal subsidies to private businesses cost taxpayers $87 billion per year. That is over 30 percent more than the Cato Institute’s 1997 corporate welfare estimate of $65 billion. If corporate welfare were eliminated tomorrow, the federal government could provide taxpayers with an annual tax cut more than twice as large as the tax rebate checks mailed out in 2001. > > SOURCE: [http://www.cato.org/pubs/pas/pa-415es.html](http://www.cato.org/pubs/pas/pa-415es.html) Money buys your way out of regulations that would cost you money…usually to the detriment of everyone else. > [@](#): > > The Kochs are longtime libertarians who believe in drastically lower personal and corporate taxes, minimal social services for the needy, and much less oversight of industry—especially environmental regulation. These views dovetail with the brothers’ corporate interests. In a study released this spring, the University of Massachusetts at Amherst’s Political Economy Research Institute named Koch Industries one of the top ten air polluters in the United States. And Greenpeace issued a report identifying the company as a “kingpin of climate science denial.” The report showed that, from 2005 to 2008, the Kochs vastly outdid ExxonMobil in giving money to organizations fighting legislation related to climate change, underwriting a huge network of foundations, think tanks, and political front groups. Indeed, the brothers have funded opposition campaigns against so many Obama Administration policies—from health-care reform to the economic-stimulus program—that, in political circles, their ideological network is known as the Kochtopus. > > Read more [The Koch Brothers’ Covert Ops | The New Yorker](http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2010/08/30/100830fa_fact_mayer?currentPage=all#ixzz12d1aQDsv) Then add in what those with money can do with some clever accountants. I am not saying they pay no taxes but they can certainly minimize their tax exposure by taking advantage of various loopholes. CEO’s tend to get paid with stock options. IIRC stock options get taxed at the capital gains rate which is 15%. So, rather than collect a $10 million salary get the equivalent in stock options and you evade a substantial tax hit. We can go on and on. Bottom line…show us how the rich are getting screwed. How they are unfairly being taken advantage of when their only crime is having money. I’ll repeat the quote from earlier and I think the source speaks volumes for this particularly given the source: _“There’s class warfare, all right,” Mr. Buffett said, “but it’s my class, the rich class, that’s making war, and we’re winning.”_ – [The Ney York Times](http://www.nytimes.com/2006/11/26/business/yourmoney/26every.html) ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2010, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-tea-party-was-actually-serious/557250/124 "2010-10-17T19:00:03Z")
> [@Ludovic](#): > > > [@Magiver](#): > > > > WOW. you shot left of Karl Marx on that rant. > > Hyperbole is not funny given Poe’s law. Humor FAIL. It wasn’t meant to be funny. You can’t tax a country back into prosperity because the wealthy are not bound to the land. They are free to move their money and the jobs that go with it elsewhere. You can’t even get Democratic leaders like Geitner or Kerry to pay their taxes unless the light of day is shown on them. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2010, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-tea-party-was-actually-serious/557250/125 "2010-10-17T19:11:16Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > First off the tax breaks proposed by the Democrats (basically leaving what Bush put in) apply to the very wealthy as well. _Everyone_ gets a tax break on the first $250,000…even if you make $1 million. > > Second, where is the “screw the rich part”? Please show that the rich are getting screwed over here. If it was the same tax rate as before then Republicans would have voted it in. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2010, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-tea-party-was-actually-serious/557250/126 "2010-10-17T19:38:34Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > > [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > > > First off the tax breaks proposed by the Democrats (basically leaving what Bush put in) apply to the very wealthy as well. _Everyone_ gets a tax break on the first $250,000…even if you make $1 million. > > > > Second, where is the “screw the rich part”? Please show that the rich are getting screwed over here. > > If it was the same tax rate as before then Republicans would have voted it in. They proved otherwise. Think, why did they sunset the tax gift to the wealthy. Because it was horribly damaging to the deficit. Repubs believe deficits don’t matter, but at the numbers they were causing, they even got alarmed. I don’t know why it does not bother you. They should end the whole thing. Let it die like it was supposed to. It is damaging the country. It is sad that the rich will skate with millions ,but it has to stop now. Letting it expire will cut the deficit about 30 percent. Why is that a bad idea? ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2010, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-tea-party-was-actually-serious/557250/127 "2010-10-17T19:50:44Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > > [@Magiver](#): > > > > If it was the same tax rate as before then Republicans would have voted it in. > > They proved otherwise. Think, why did they sunset the tax gift to the wealthy. Because it was horribly damaging to the deficit. Repubs believe deficits don’t matter, but at the numbers they were causing, they even got alarmed. I don’t know why it does not bother you. > They should end the whole thing. Let it die like it was supposed to. It is damaging the country. It is sad that the rich will skate with millions ,but it has to stop now. > Letting it expire will cut the deficit about 30 percent. Why is that a bad idea? because the rich are not bound to the soil and will take their money elsewhere. Chasing money and jobs out of the country is bad during a recession. If Democrats thought it was a good idea they could have rammed it through. They didn’t. ---
**Author:** ![emacknight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ec8ea/32.png) [@emacknight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emacknight)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2010, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-tea-party-was-actually-serious/557250/128 "2010-10-17T20:03:19Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > > [@Ludovic](#): > > > > Hyperbole is not funny given Poe’s law. Humor FAIL. > > It wasn’t meant to be funny. You can’t tax a country back into prosperity because the wealthy are not bound to the land. They are free to move their money and the jobs that go with it elsewhere. You can’t even get Democratic leaders like Geitner or Kerry to pay their taxes unless the light of day is shown on them. Two questions: [1] where would they go, [2] why haven’t they all left? ---
**Author:** ![Digital\_Stimulus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@Digital\_Stimulus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Digital_Stimulus)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2010, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-tea-party-was-actually-serious/557250/129 "2010-10-17T20:10:22Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > Think, why did they sunset the tax gift to the wealthy. Using an objective judgment, that’s not true (and I’m pretty sure you’ve been told this already). The built-in expiration was so that the 'Pubs could use the reconciliation process that only requires a majority to pass the Senate – y’know, that bad, evil legislative process…well, when the Democrats do it, anyway. 10 years was the upper limit on timeframe; they took it. I have little doubt that there were political calculation that made it 10 years rather than 8 or 6 or whatever. In fact, I have little doubt that if the Republicans could have made them permanent at the time, they would have. Although I’ll admit that I do maintain that little doubt – it turned out to be a beautifully constructed political timebomb. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2010, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-tea-party-was-actually-serious/557250/130 "2010-10-17T20:21:57Z")
> [@emacknight](#): > > > [@Magiver](#): > > > > It wasn’t meant to be funny. You can’t tax a country back into prosperity because the wealthy are not bound to the land. They are free to move their money and the jobs that go with it elsewhere. You can’t even get Democratic leaders like Geitner or Kerry to pay their taxes unless the light of day is shown on them. > > Two questions: [1] where would they go, [2] why haven’t they all left? They would go to places where they can earn more money. They haven’t all left because one of the variables on earning money are tax rates and 9 years ago those were lowered. Tax rates can be personal income or local taxes. If you haven’t noticed, cities compete for businesses by lowering various tax rates. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2010, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-tea-party-was-actually-serious/557250/131 "2010-10-17T20:26:55Z")
Is there any evidence that “the rich” flee the country when the types of tax increases we’re talking about take effect? Unless they want to move the China or India, this country still offers some of the best business opportunities in the world. China is a great place to build a factory, but who wants to live in that polluted cesspool of a country if they don’t have to? ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2010, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-tea-party-was-actually-serious/557250/132 "2010-10-17T20:49:37Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Is there any evidence that “the rich” flee the country when the types of tax increases we’re talking about take effect? Unless they want to move the China or India, this country still offers some of the best business opportunities in the world. China is a great place to build a factory, but who wants to live in that polluted cesspool of a country if they don’t have to? I just posted the example of cities offering tax rebates to draw businesses in. Taxes, labor, resources and other factors all affect businesses differently. If you don’t understand that companies move overseas to take advantage of cost reductions then there isn’t much else to say. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2010, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-tea-party-was-actually-serious/557250/133 "2010-10-17T20:54:40Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > > [@John\_Mace](#): > > > > Is there any evidence that “the rich” flee the country when the types of tax increases we’re talking about take effect? Unless they want to move the China or India, this country still offers some of the best business opportunities in the world. China is a great place to build a factory, but who wants to live in that polluted cesspool of a country if they don’t have to? > > I just posted the example of cities offering tax rebates to draw businesses in. Cities within the US? > [@](#): > > Taxes, labor, resources and other factors all affect businesses differently. If you don’t understand that companies move overseas to take advantage of cost reductions then there isn’t much else to say. Companies. Not individuals for minor tax reasons. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2010, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-tea-party-was-actually-serious/557250/134 "2010-10-17T21:13:24Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > > [@Magiver](#): > > > > I just posted the example of cities offering tax rebates to draw businesses in. > > Cities within the US? Probably as much a state initiative but yes. We tried to bring in a Honda parts plant in Ohio and retain NCR in my city with incentives. > [@John\_Mace](#): > > Companies. Not individuals for minor tax reasons. Owners of small businesses are affected by individual tax rates. A startup company making a world product can locate anywhere. ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2010, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-tea-party-was-actually-serious/557250/135 "2010-10-17T21:15:01Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > They haven’t all left because one of the variables on earning money are tax rates and 9 years ago those were lowered. Why didn’t they move before that, when taxes were higher? ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2010, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-tea-party-was-actually-serious/557250/136 "2010-10-17T21:28:35Z")
> [@Robot\_Arm](#): > > > [@Magiver](#): > > > > They haven’t all left because one of the variables on earning money are tax rates and 9 years ago those were lowered. > > Why didn’t they move before that, when taxes were higher? They did. ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2010, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-tea-party-was-actually-serious/557250/137 "2010-10-17T21:32:02Z")
Then why did the government cut taxes on the rich if they’d all left? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2010, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-tea-party-was-actually-serious/557250/138 "2010-10-17T21:36:17Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > > [@John\_Mace](#): > > > > Cities within the US? > > Probably as much a state initiative but yes. We tried to bring in a Honda parts plant in Ohio and retain NCR in my city with incentives. Which is what I was talking about. Businesses aren’t going to leave the country for a few percentage points of taxes on individuals. > [@](#): > > > [@John\_Mace](#): > > > > Companies. Not individuals for minor tax reasons. > > Owners of small businesses are affected by individual tax rates. A startup company making a world product can locate anywhere. Small business don’t move to China. Again, individuals aren’t going to just move out of the US because of a few percentage points in the tax rates. Start-ups have enough problems without having to deal with locating their principles overseas. Unless you have cites showing otherwise… ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2010, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-tea-party-was-actually-serious/557250/139 "2010-10-17T21:38:19Z")
You’re completely right. Disagreeing about the marginal rate of taxation of very wealthy individuals _is_ much worse than Marx. I withdraw my snark. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2010, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-tea-party-was-actually-serious/557250/140 "2010-10-17T21:40:09Z")
> [@Robot\_Arm](#): > > Then why did the government cut taxes on the rich if they’d all left? I missed the part where they all left. Why didn’t the Democratic party push through the tax on the rich? Because people like Kerry understand that if you park your boat in another state he would pay less taxes. Sucks to be him when he got caught be you can’t say he doesn’t understand the concept of wealth following the lowest tax rate. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-tea-party-was-actually-serious/557250.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-tea-party-was-actually-serious/557250.md?page=8)