# If The Tea Party Was Actually Serious **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 15, 2010, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-tea-party-was-actually-serious/557250 "2010-10-15T15:37:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2010, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-tea-party-was-actually-serious/557250/141 "2010-10-17T21:48:44Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > > [@Robot\_Arm](#): > > > > Then why did the government cut taxes on the rich if they’d all left? > > I missed the part where they all left. Perfectly understandable mistake to make. Let me go back and see who was talking about all the rich people leaving. > [@Magiver](#): > > > [@Robot\_Arm](#): > > > > > [@Magiver](#): > > > > > > They haven’t all left because… > > > > Why didn’t they move before that,… > > They did. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2010, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-tea-party-was-actually-serious/557250/142 "2010-10-17T21:49:52Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Small business don’t move to China. Again, individuals aren’t going to just move out of the US because of a few percentage points in the tax rates. Start-ups have enough problems without having to deal with locating their principles overseas. Unless you have cites showing otherwise… [They don’t?](http://www.businessweek.com/smallbiz/content/jan2006/sb20060101_281430.htm). My mistake. Maybe I was thinking of another country. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2010, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-tea-party-was-actually-serious/557250/143 "2010-10-17T21:51:15Z")
Keep in mind that if I, as a US citizen, move outside the country, I still have to pay US income taxes. If I would owe 50k in taxes to the US, even if I owe 25K in the country I’m living, I have to pay the 25k difference to the US. So, moving overseas doesn’t gain me anything unless I give up my citizenship. The people willing to do that for a few percentage points of income tax rate can probably be counted on the fingers of one hand. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2010, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-tea-party-was-actually-serious/557250/144 "2010-10-17T21:52:21Z")
> [@Robot\_Arm](#): > > > [@Magiver](#): > > > > I missed the part where they all left. > > Perfectly understandable mistake to make. Let me go back and see who was talking about all the rich people leaving. I never said everybody left and to attempt to assume that as a point of argument is a poor debate tactic. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2010, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-tea-party-was-actually-serious/557250/145 "2010-10-17T21:57:56Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > > [@John\_Mace](#): > > > > Small business don’t move to China. Again, individuals aren’t going to just move out of the US because of a few percentage points in the tax rates. Start-ups have enough problems without having to deal with locating their principles overseas. Unless you have cites showing otherwise… > > [They don’t?](http://www.businessweek.com/smallbiz/content/jan2006/sb20060101_281430.htm). My mistake. Maybe I was thinking of another country. Can you quote the part where it tells us how many of these actually make the move? And how many do so because US tax rates might rise 3% for rich people? ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2010, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-tea-party-was-actually-serious/557250/146 "2010-10-17T22:01:25Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > I never said everybody left and to attempt to assume that as a point of argument is a poor debate tactic. Then let me ask the question again. Why didn’t _all_ the rich people leave prior to 2001, when taxes were higher than they are now? ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2010, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-tea-party-was-actually-serious/557250/147 "2010-10-17T22:11:38Z")
> [@Robot\_Arm](#): > > > [@Magiver](#): > > > > I never said everybody left and to attempt to assume that as a point of argument is a poor debate tactic. > > Then let me ask the question again. Why didn’t _all_ the rich people leave prior to 2001, when taxes were higher than they are now? I already answered the question. Taxes are one of many variables a small business faces. As a single variable it doesn’t chase away or encourage all businesses to move. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2010, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-tea-party-was-actually-serious/557250/148 "2010-10-17T22:18:07Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > > [@Magiver](#): > > > > [They don’t?](http://www.businessweek.com/smallbiz/content/jan2006/sb20060101_281430.htm). My mistake. Maybe I was thinking of another country. > > Can you quote the part where it tells us how many of these actually make the move? And how many do so because US tax rates might rise 3% for rich people? No. I can’t quote the percentages. It’s not necessary to understand the percentage to show that you were wrong on your assumption. China welcomes investment and we are at 10% unemployment which makes raising taxes a bad idea for our economy. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2010, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-tea-party-was-actually-serious/557250/149 "2010-10-17T22:27:33Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > > [@John\_Mace](#): > > > > Can you quote the part where it tells us how many of these actually make the move? And how many do so because US tax rates might rise 3% for rich people? > > No. I can’t quote the percentages. It’s not necessary to understand the percentage to show that you were wrong on your assumption. China welcomes investment and we are at 10% unemployment which makes raising taxes a bad idea for our economy. First of all, I haven’t said I favor raising taxes. There are good reasons to argue for keeping the tax code as is for now. Fearmongering about people leaving the country isn’t one of those reasons. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2010, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-tea-party-was-actually-serious/557250/150 "2010-10-17T22:58:18Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > > [@Magiver](#): > > > > No. I can’t quote the percentages. It’s not necessary to understand the percentage to show that you were wrong on your assumption. China welcomes investment and we are at 10% unemployment which makes raising taxes a bad idea for our economy. > > First of all, I haven’t said I favor raising taxes. There are good reasons to argue for keeping the tax code as is for now. Fearmongering about people leaving the country isn’t one of those reasons. You said small businesses don’t go to China. whatever reason you think is a good idea to maintain the current tax rate you just assign the word fearmongering to it and have yourself a nice day. ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2010, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-tea-party-was-actually-serious/557250/151 "2010-10-17T23:24:21Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > No. I can’t quote the percentages. It’s not necessary to understand the percentage to show that you were wrong on your assumption. China welcomes investment and we are at 10% unemployment which makes raising taxes a bad idea for our economy. If unemployment goes down, would you be in favor of raising taxes then? ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2010, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-tea-party-was-actually-serious/557250/152 "2010-10-18T00:04:55Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > There is a bottom line to what is going on and we have an armchair view of what it will look like in the US. Greece and France are imploding from the reality of overspending. No. They are not. Greece is in trouble because of widespread tax evasion, which very possibly would be part of their culture even in a low-tax low-service environment. France is not that bad off, really, though it’s suffering for the sins of the USA, the UK, & Iceland like the rest of the First World. No, Greece runs deficits for the same reason the USA does. Democracies eventually go bankrupt because the populace is full of selfish people trying to get at least as much out in benefit as they pay in in tax. And of course we can’t all come out ahead or even break even because government has a basic operating rate of cost. This phenomenon holds true in a low-tax low-service régime as well as a high-tax high-service régime. The left can blame the right for taxing too little & spending too much things that go boom, & the right can blame the left for spending too much on things that _don’t_ go boom. But it’s intrinsic to democracy. Right now Canada is balancing its budget, which is amazing; it’s also most likely unsustainable long-term, & is probably only happening because a low-tax low-service party took over from a high-tax high-service régime, & in a fit of rationality completely uncharacteristic of democracies, lowered spending first. And they are\* hated\* for it. Hated hated. In this situation, you’re not even a voice offering an alternative argument, you’re just another data point. > [@](#): > > One way or another we are going to be spending less than we are now. When you talk about cutting back on education that doesn’t mean the children won’t learn, it means we stop building half-billion dollar monuments to fiscal malfeasance. It means parents take back the responsibility of feeding their children and make sure they do their homework. Are the parents made of money? I see a lot of poor parents not being able to send their kids to college, a lot of poor kids not even getting school lunch unless some private philanthropy provides it. Just so long as you don’t have to pay tax, huh? > [@](#): > > We WILL be spending less money in the future whether we want to or not. You’re so cute. No, we’ll be spending more, both privately & publicly. Inflation & expansion will continue, the “good old days” aren’t coming back. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2010, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-tea-party-was-actually-serious/557250/153 "2010-10-18T00:08:20Z")
> [@Robot\_Arm](#): > > > [@Magiver](#): > > > > No. I can’t quote the percentages. It’s not necessary to understand the percentage to show that you were wrong on your assumption. China welcomes investment and we are at 10% unemployment which makes raising taxes a bad idea for our economy. > > If unemployment goes down, would you be in favor of raising taxes then? No. We had a balanced budget before with a surplus and we can do it again. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2010, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-tea-party-was-actually-serious/557250/154 "2010-10-18T00:12:30Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#): > > You’re so cute. No, we’ll be spending more, both privately & publicly. Inflation & expansion will continue, the “good old days” aren’t coming back. Who is going to lend us the money? ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2010, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-tea-party-was-actually-serious/557250/155 "2010-10-18T00:55:52Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > > [@gonzomax](#): > > > > That is not close to screwing them. They have accumulated enormous fortunes. They have a lobsided share of the wealth. That is not screwing. They have had a decade of feeding the greed. Krugman said it is like writing a check for 1.3 million dollars to the top 1200 richest Americans, once a year, every year for a decade. If that is screwing, I could use some. You are correct. it is not a debate. it is a cold hard truth. > > WOW. you shot left of Karl Marx on that rant. Heh. Clearly you were not raised in the church. If you think that was far left, you should hear what Yeshua said about the rich. > [@Magiver](#): > > because the rich are not bound to the soil and will take their money elsewhere. Chasing money and jobs out of the country is bad during a recession. If Democrats thought it was a good idea they could have rammed it through. They didn’t. By that logic, we should have to bribe the rich to stay in the country. Why even have a flat tax? Make them plainly regressive. Tax the poor to utter deprivation & import rich people from other countries, even! :rolleyes: I’ve seen even apparently intelligent Democrats fall into the trap of thinking we have to bribe the rich with low tax rates. What they forget is that the sort of person we have to bribe with low taxes to even stay in the country is no patriot, nor desirable, nor necessary. We have devalued our currency through decades of inflation. We have enough money. More capitalists who have nothing to offer but more ownership of our nation in their hands are not necessary. Let them go! We don’t need them! We can still tax whatever property they still hold here! In point of fact it is land that is productive. The rich are far more bound to the soil than the proletariat, as a rule. ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2010, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-tea-party-was-actually-serious/557250/156 "2010-10-18T01:10:05Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > No. We had a balanced budget before with a surplus and we can do it again. Can we set the tax rates back to what they were when we last had a balanced budget? ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2010, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-tea-party-was-actually-serious/557250/157 "2010-10-18T01:12:17Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > No. I can’t quote the percentages. It’s not necessary to understand the percentage to show that you were wrong on your assumption. China welcomes investment and we are at 10% unemployment which makes raising taxes a bad idea for our economy. Wait wait wait. We shouldn’t raise taxes on the rich because American businessmen will build factories in China, & pay taxes in two countries? Is that your argument? And we shouldn’t raise taxes on the rich because taxes on workers are lower in China? No, I’m sorry, this is where the argument falls apart completely. We already tax expatriates. Given the same revenues from his business, the owner will pay as much in tax whether here or there. Maybe more there. He might catch a break on employee salaries there. So the question is, are we losing the business of foreigners who would relocate to the USA, become resident aliens, & hire workers here rather than in China or in Vietnam? Yes, we are. Not because of taxes on the capital–but because of the taxes & other expenses on the workers. China doesn’t tax its workers as much as we do. Your argument is turning into an argument for lowering taxes on the proles–which would be _progressive._ > [@Magiver](#): > > I already answered the question. Taxes are one of many variables a small business faces. As a single variable it doesn’t chase away or encourage all businesses to move. So you now admit your argument is crap. Good. ---
**Author:** ![emacknight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ec8ea/32.png) [@emacknight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emacknight)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2010, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-tea-party-was-actually-serious/557250/158 "2010-10-18T01:20:42Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > It wasn’t meant to be funny. You can’t tax a country back into prosperity because the wealthy are not bound to the land. They are free to move their money and the jobs that go with it elsewhere. You can’t even get Democratic leaders like Geitner or Kerry to pay their taxes unless the light of day is shown on them. Okay, so three more questions for you: [1] Since we’re talking about \*raising \*taxes back to what they were before the Bush tax cuts, it means that taxes used to be higher than they are now. Why were there any rich people? Why didn’t they all leave the last time taxes were raised? [2] When Bush lowered taxes (through act of congress), was there a rush of rich people moving back to the US? [3] I’m pretty rich, but I must admit I’m not sure where to go after taxes are raised. Any suggestions so I can start making arrangements now? ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2010, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-tea-party-was-actually-serious/557250/159 "2010-10-18T01:23:02Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#): > > In point of fact it is land that is productive. The rich are far more bound to the soil than the proletariat, as a rule. How do you figure? Have you looked where most products are made lately? ---
**Author:** ![I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/i_love_me_vol.i/32/521_2.png) [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/I_Love_Me_Vol.I)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2010, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-tea-party-was-actually-serious/557250/160 "2010-10-18T01:45:14Z")
> [@Kearsen](#): > > Taxation is enough, if the government wants money to fund some new pet project then they need to find the funding in a different way When you say ‘pet project’ are you referring to that nutty scheme of reducing our zillion-dollar national debt (sometimes called the “Buy Back Our Nation From China” scheme)? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-tea-party-was-actually-serious/557250.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-tea-party-was-actually-serious/557250.md?page=9)