# If the U.S. had won the Viet Nam war, would the Cambodian genocide have occurred? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 16, 2005, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-u-s-had-won-the-viet-nam-war-would-the-cambodian-genocide-have-occurred/326434 "2005-10-16T03:35:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Lynwood\_Slim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/6f9a4e/32.png) [@Lynwood\_Slim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lynwood_Slim)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2005, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-u-s-had-won-the-viet-nam-war-would-the-cambodian-genocide-have-occurred/326434/1 "2005-10-16T03:35:40Z")
The loss of the Viet Nam war certainly continues to shape American (and world thinking). I wonder if we had won the war in Viet Nam, e.g., fought the Viet Cong insurgency to a standstill, and successfully interdicted North Vietnamese troops from attacking the South Vietnamese region, what would have happened? Specifically, would an American presence in a stable South Viet Nam have been a force that would have prevented the Cambodian genocide? Would the Khmer Rouge even have come to power if the Americans had not been defeated? What might have been other consequences had we won? I have not been able to find any serious study of this issue. I should note that I consider winning, in the way that I have defined, a possibility, though not a likelihood. I don’t care to debate whether we could have won or not, but rather what would have happened if we did. For those who believe that we could not have won, and therefore the question I pose pointless, I should point out that the communist forces were debilitated, at least short term, after their debacle of the Tet offensive and Khe San, and the Phoenix program was destroying the Viet Cong leadership. Most scholars of the war (that is, not including those with strong opinions not matched by mastery of the facts), find it ironic that American victories in 1968 were interpreted by the press to be reversals, and precipitated the decision to draw down and exit. Had the Americans continued with strategic wisdom and tactical success, had the enemy not, and had the S.V. regime and army operated with greater efficiency (none of this likely), a win was possible, hence my question. ---
**Author:** ![Operation\_Ripper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/34f0e0/32.png) [@Operation\_Ripper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Operation_Ripper)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2005, 3:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-u-s-had-won-the-viet-nam-war-would-the-cambodian-genocide-have-occurred/326434/2 "2005-10-16T03:41:44Z")
No, it wouldn’t have occurred. And we didn’t lose, exactly, we quit, like people are trying to get us to do in Iraq now. ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2005, 3:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-u-s-had-won-the-viet-nam-war-would-the-cambodian-genocide-have-occurred/326434/3 "2005-10-16T03:46:56Z")
No. I can’t remember the timeline exactly but I think the Khmer Rogue took over a few days after the last troops left Indochina. Communists took over in Laos, Vietnam & Cambodia within a year of the US leaving the area. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2005, 4:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-u-s-had-won-the-viet-nam-war-would-the-cambodian-genocide-have-occurred/326434/4 "2005-10-16T04:21:36Z")
I suppose it would depend on HOW we ended up winning…and what the final cost was. That said, I doubt we would allow a communist government to have its way in Cambodian after fighting a brutal war in Vietnam…and after all, we’d pretty much be right there (we are still in South Korea after all), so we would know what was going on and be in a position to stop it. -XT ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2005, 6:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-u-s-had-won-the-viet-nam-war-would-the-cambodian-genocide-have-occurred/326434/5 "2005-10-16T06:20:54Z")
I find the question meaningless because no one ever knew what the definition of an American “win in Vietnam” could be. Oh, BTW, what would an American “win” in Iraq be? In the real world, I mean. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2005, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-u-s-had-won-the-viet-nam-war-would-the-cambodian-genocide-have-occurred/326434/6 "2005-10-16T15:13:46Z")
Certainly if the U.S. came to a decisive victory in Vietnam they could use resources to shore up Cambodia and thus prevent the Khmer Rouge from coming to power. However, one could also make the argument that if the U.S. had withdrawn _sooner_, Vietnam would be more powerful by the time Cambodia was about to fall, and thus either bring another group other than the Khmer Rouge to power, or influence the Khmer Rouge through either material support or political persuasion. Although I guess the killings could have still taken place, albeit in a modified form that skipped over ethnic Vietnamese, in much the same way that ethnic Chinese were also skipped over. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2005, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-u-s-had-won-the-viet-nam-war-would-the-cambodian-genocide-have-occurred/326434/7 "2005-10-16T17:18:13Z")
The point of my above snark, which I should have explained: It’s just that the scenario in which the Viet Cong give up resistance to American occupation takes place in a universe different from the one we live in. I can’t see Charlie _ever_ giving up, not as long as villages continue to exist and produce food. The only way the Cong could have been stopped would be to exterminate a majority of Vietnam’s villages, scorched earth over 60% of the territory. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2005, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-u-s-had-won-the-viet-nam-war-would-the-cambodian-genocide-have-occurred/326434/8 "2005-10-16T17:45:36Z")
Weren’t the Viet Cong largely wiped out after Tet? They wouldn’t have survived as a force without North Vietnamese support. ---
**Author:** ![jshore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b5e925/32.png) [@jshore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jshore)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2005, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-u-s-had-won-the-viet-nam-war-would-the-cambodian-genocide-have-occurred/326434/9 "2005-10-16T21:41:51Z")
I think that perhaps a more relevant question is whether the genocide would have occurred had the U.S. not entered the Vietnam War…or had not gone on to start bombing Cambodia. Noone can be sure…but my guess is probably not. Our fighting there most likely helped the most radical, extreme elements gain control. That is one of the problems of fighting wars…You often help your worst enemies. ---
**Author:** ![Chefguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chefguy/32/138_2.png) [@Chefguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chefguy)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2005, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-u-s-had-won-the-viet-nam-war-would-the-cambodian-genocide-have-occurred/326434/10 "2005-10-16T21:55:59Z")
> [@Operation Ripper](#): > > No, it wouldn’t have occurred. And we didn’t lose, exactly, we quit, like people are trying to get us to do in Iraq now. Yeah, I’ve seen _A Fish Called Wanda_, too. You mean, we quit after conducting an idiotic war of attrition and getting our asses handed to us. Sorta like now. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2005, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-u-s-had-won-the-viet-nam-war-would-the-cambodian-genocide-have-occurred/326434/11 "2005-10-16T23:23:59Z")
> [@Ludovic](#): > > However, one could also make the argument that if the U.S. had withdrawn _sooner_, Vietnam would be more powerful by the time Cambodia was about to fall, and thus either bring another group other than the Khmer Rouge to power, or influence the Khmer Rouge through either material support or political persuasion. Which Vietnam? ---
**Author:** ![Phantom\_Dennis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/51bf81/32.png) [@Phantom\_Dennis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Phantom_Dennis)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2005, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-u-s-had-won-the-viet-nam-war-would-the-cambodian-genocide-have-occurred/326434/12 "2005-10-16T23:34:48Z")
> [@Operation Ripper](#): > > …we didn’t lose, exactly, we quit… What exactly is your definition of “lose”? True, the North Vietnamese didn’t invade the US, overthrow our leaders, and establish a Communist dictatorship, so in that sense, I guess we didn’t lose… ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2005, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-u-s-had-won-the-viet-nam-war-would-the-cambodian-genocide-have-occurred/326434/13 "2005-10-16T23:37:42Z")
From the Wikipedia – [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khmer\_Rouge:](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khmer_Rouge:) > [@](#): > > The Indochinese Communist Party was founded in 1931, and a separate Cambodian Communist Party was founded in 1951, although later the Khmer Rouge leader, Pol Pot, insisted that the party was founded in 1960. In its early years the party remained subordinate to the Communist Party of Vietnam. From the mid 1960s the Cambodian Communists conducted a low-level insurgency along the Vietnamese border, mainly in support of the Vietnamese Communists in their war with the United States. > > In the 1970s the Party became known as the Communist Party of Kampuchea (CPK) and in the 1980s and 1990s as the Party of Democratic Kampuchea, but it became commonly known by the French name Khmer Rouge, a name originally given by Norodom Sihanouk in the 1950s. > > \ > > The leadership of the Khmer Rouge was largely unchanged between the 1960s and the mid-1990s. The Khmer Rouge leaders were mostly from middle-class families and had been educated at French universities. The great majority of Khmer Rouge fighters were from poor peasant families and many were conscripted. The Khmer Rouge was funded by Vietnam in the 1950s, supplied with small arms, explosives, military weapons and support from China in the 1980s and had approximately 8,000 guerillas. > > \ > > In 1970 Cambodia’s neutralist ruler, Prince Norodom Sihanouk, was deposed while out of the country by a coup d’état which brought General Lon Nol to power. Lon Nol and his supporters were angered by what they saw as Sihanouk’s lenient attitude towards the Vietnamese troops who had established bases in their country at will and evicted Cambodians from areas under their control. Sihanouk formed a government in exile, the Royal Government of National Union of Kampuchea (GRUNK) which was run by the National United Front of Kampuchea (FUNK), and whose armed forces were the Cambodian People’s National Liberation Armed Forces. These bodies included some neutralist and other non-Communist politicians, but were effectively fronts for the Khmer Rouge. > > With American financial support, Lon Nol attempted to fight the Vietnamese Communists and the Khmer Rouge. American bombing in Cambodia and the subsequent Cambodian casualties made Lon Nol’s government unpopular, and may have caused support for the Khmer Rouge to grow, particularly in the countryside. Support for Sihanouk, in exile in Beijing, was strong in rural areas, and he urged resistance against Lon Nol’s regime. > > By 1973 the Khmer Rouge exercised de facto control over the majority of Cambodian territory, although only a minority of its population. When the U.S. Congress suspended funds for bombing Khmer Rouge positions and limited aid to Cambodia in 1973, the Khmer Rouge made sweeping gains in the country. By 1975, with the Lon Nol government running out of ammunition, it was clear that it was only a matter of time before the government collapsed. On April 17, 1975 the Khmer Rouge captured Phnom Penh. Which doesn’t clear up much, for “what if” purposes. The Khmer Rouge came to power in the context of a regional political situation that was heavily shaped by American military intervention in Vietnam (and bombing of Cambodia). But the movement had been a going concern since the 1950s, antedating U.S. involvement, and might have prevailed even if the U.S. had kept its nose out. If the U.S. had “won” in Vietnam – what would that mean, anyway? Invading North Vietnam and unseating its regime? Or just preserving South Vietnam as a stable non-Communist state like South Korea? If the latter, then the U.S. and/or South Vietnam might have had enough strength left over to preserve Lon Nol’s regime – or maybe not. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2005, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-u-s-had-won-the-viet-nam-war-would-the-cambodian-genocide-have-occurred/326434/14 "2005-10-17T01:12:59Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Which Vietnam? Communist Vietnam. You are aware that Communist Vietnam and Cambodia went to war? Which could have been different or maybe perhaps avoided if Vietnam had had more time to consolidate their win? Or not. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2005, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-u-s-had-won-the-viet-nam-war-would-the-cambodian-genocide-have-occurred/326434/15 "2005-10-17T01:29:59Z")
> [@June](#): > > What exactly is your definition of “lose”? In the context of Vietnam I’d say ‘lose’ is in the eye of the beholder. Certainly we were not driven from Vietnam due to military reasons…we didn’t ‘lose’ from a military perspective. We were’t decisively (or otherwise) defeated on the battle field…in fact, quite the opposite. From a military perspective and by any definition we were easily winnning…militarily. We lost due to political will. In that context I’d say the statement ‘…we didn’t lose, exactly, we quit…’ is apt. YMMV of course and probably does. > [@BrainGlutton](#): > > If the U.S. had “won” in Vietnam – what would that mean, anyway? Invading North Vietnam and unseating its regime? Or just preserving South Vietnam as a stable non-Communist state like South Korea? If the latter, then the U.S. and/or South Vietnam might have had enough strength left over to preserve Lon Nol’s regime – or maybe not. Thats the question, isn’t it. What entails the US winning in Vietnam? -XT ---
**Author:** ![SuaSponte](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/67e7ee/32.png) [@SuaSponte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SuaSponte)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2005, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-u-s-had-won-the-viet-nam-war-would-the-cambodian-genocide-have-occurred/326434/16 "2005-10-17T18:38:52Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > In the context of Vietnam I’d say ‘lose’ is in the eye of the beholder. Certainly we were not driven from Vietnam due to military reasons…we didn’t ‘lose’ from a military perspective. We were’t decisively (or otherwise) defeated on the battle field…in fact, quite the opposite. From a military perspective and by any definition we were easily winnning…militarily. We lost due to political will. In that context I’d say the statement ‘…we didn’t lose, exactly, we quit…’ is apt. YMMV of course and probably does. ::sigh:: We lost. It doesn’t matter _why_ the NVA was able to march into Saigon; what matters is that it _did_ march into Saigon. “War is a continuation of politics by other means”. If it was political considerations that led the US to leave Vietnam, rather than military ones, it doesn’t matter to the end result. > [@](#): > > Thats the question, isn’t it. What entails the US winning in Vietnam? An independent South Vietnam. Sua ---
**Author:** ![sqweels](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f19dbf/32.png) [@sqweels](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sqweels)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2005, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-u-s-had-won-the-viet-nam-war-would-the-cambodian-genocide-have-occurred/326434/17 "2005-10-17T19:36:32Z")
> [@](#): > > If it was political considerations that led the US to leave Vietnam, rather than military ones, it doesn’t matter to the end result. And the political considerations were a direct result of the all the casualties we had suffered given the apparent lack of military progress. ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2005, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-u-s-had-won-the-viet-nam-war-would-the-cambodian-genocide-have-occurred/326434/18 "2005-10-17T20:11:21Z")
The US tried to send funds, food and ammunition to fight the Khmer Rogue in 1975 but congress vetoed it. > **[History of Cambodia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Cambodia)** > > The history of Cambodia, a country in mainland Southeast Asia, can be traced back to Indian civilization. Detailed records of a political structure on the territory of what is now Cambodia first appear in Chinese annals in reference to Funan, a polity that encompassed the southernmost part of the Indochinese peninsula during the 1st to 6th centuries. Centered at the lower Mekong, Funan is noted as the oldest regional Hindu culture, which suggests prolonged socio-economic interaction wit The K... A US-funded airlift of ammunition and rice ended when Congress refused additional aid for Cambodia. Ford also tried to get funding for the Cambodian resistance in 1975 but was shot down by congress. Then again the bombings and perpetual war that the US helped create created an environment where radicals like the Khmer Rogue became a viable opportunity. However in that case tons of countries are at fault including France, Vietnam, Cambodia, Laos, China & the USSR as well as the US. ---
**Author:** ![Atticus\_Finch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ec9cab/32.png) [@Atticus\_Finch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atticus_Finch)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2005, 8:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-u-s-had-won-the-viet-nam-war-would-the-cambodian-genocide-have-occurred/326434/19 "2005-10-18T08:34:19Z")
Note that the fall of the Khmer Rouge government, in 1979-80, was due to the Vietnamese government, ie the Communist SRVN. ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2005, 6:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-u-s-had-won-the-viet-nam-war-would-the-cambodian-genocide-have-occurred/326434/20 "2005-10-19T06:06:00Z")
> [@Atticus Finch](#): > > Note that the fall of the Khmer Rouge government, in 1979-80, was due to the Vietnamese government, ie the Communist SRVN. I know [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-u-s-had-won-the-viet-nam-war-would-the-cambodian-genocide-have-occurred/326434.md?page=2)