# If the universe is constantly expanding...
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-universe-is-constantly-expanding/360149
**Category:** Great Debates
**Created:** [June 10, 2006, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-universe-is-constantly-expanding/360149 "2006-06-10T01:53:52Z")
**Posts on this page:** 15
**Page:** 4
### Author:  [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)
#### Post date: [June 22, 2006, 6:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-universe-is-constantly-expanding/360149/61 "2006-06-22T06:12:18Z")
> [@ultrafilter](#):
>
> I can assert that the space outside the visible universe is filled with gumbo, and that space expands by dissolving gumbo. The beauty of this is that no one can ever prove me wrong.
I can. If space outside the universe, Cajuns would have invented starships a long time ago, I gawrantee.
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### Author:  [@Triskadecamus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Triskadecamus)
#### Post date: [June 22, 2006, 6:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-universe-is-constantly-expanding/360149/62 "2006-06-22T06:32:57Z")
Yeah, like a Cajun who had discovered an infinite source of gumbo would come back here and tell us about it.
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### Author:  [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)
#### Post date: [June 22, 2006, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-universe-is-constantly-expanding/360149/63 "2006-06-22T13:37:10Z")
> [@yelimS](#):
>
> Unless of course the earth is one of relatively few possible combinations of atoms. I mean, we haven’t explored all visible space, who’s saying it won’t start repeating itself if we look only a lightyear or two further?
> You probably can’t have a planet like earth without a star almost or exactly like the sun, but perhaps you can’t have a star like the sun without a planet almost or exactly like the earth either? Thus, from a relatively small identical area of space-time, grows a larger identical area. Or perhaps not. This rules.
The visible universe wouldn’t repeat exactly like a bathroom tile pattern. And statistics says that it won’t start repeating a few light years beyond what we can detect. As I said, you would have to travel an inconceivable distance.
Also, you don’t need an Earth-like planet for an Earth’s sun-like sun. You do need an Earth’s sun-like sun to have an Earth-like planet though. Plus duplicate Earth wouldn’t need to stay duplicate Earth forever. This very instance it might be an exact duplicate, but maybe Earth II msmith keeps working while I go kick my boss in the nuts.
Here’s a link to the article:
[http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?colID=1&articleID=000F1EDD-B48A-1E90-8EA5809EC5880000](http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?colID=1&articleID=000F1EDD-B48A-1E90-8EA5809EC5880000)
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### Author:  [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)
#### Post date: [June 22, 2006, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-universe-is-constantly-expanding/360149/64 "2006-06-22T14:53:09Z")
> [@msmith537](#):
>
> The visible universe wouldn’t repeat exactly like a bathroom tile pattern. And statistics says that it won’t start repeating a few light years beyond what we can detect. As I said, you would have to travel an inconceivable distance.
>
> Also, you don’t need an Earth-like planet for an Earth’s sun-like sun. You do need an Earth’s sun-like sun to have an Earth-like planet though. Plus duplicate Earth wouldn’t need to stay duplicate Earth forever. This very instance it might be an exact duplicate, but maybe Earth II msmith keeps working while I go kick my boss in the nuts.
>
> Here’s a link to the article:
> [http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?colID=1&articleID=000F1EDD-B48A-1E90-8EA5809EC5880000](http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?colID=1&articleID=000F1EDD-B48A-1E90-8EA5809EC5880000)
Kick mine while you’re at it, please. 😛
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### Author:  [@Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Least_Original_User_Name_Ever)
#### Post date: [June 22, 2006, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-universe-is-constantly-expanding/360149/65 "2006-06-22T14:53:19Z")
> [@bonitahi](#):
>
> I am just not getting it.
>
> However, what BJMOOSE said, “I’ve always taken it as a philosophical axiom that, by definition, one cannot have an infinite number of finite things. You can have a zillion apples, but not an infinite number of apples. You can have a zillion stars, but you can’t have an infinite number of stars. You can have a zillion atoms in the universe, but not an infinite number of atoms. So count me in with the “finite but unbounded” crowd.”
> This brings me closer to an answer.
>
> Also, Least Original User Name Ever, explains, " the universe is an island surrounded by whatever it is that surrounds universes." indicates that the universe is NOT infinite.
>
> Vodka ain’t work’n. Weed?? Anyhow, I am trying, and I do appreciate the help (and confussion added) by all those kind helpers and posters. Thanks all.
The universe thing was a joke.
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### Author:  [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)
#### Post date: [June 22, 2006, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-universe-is-constantly-expanding/360149/66 "2006-06-22T14:57:33Z")
> [@Malacandra](#):
>
> Kick mine while you’re at it, please. 😛
My boss! My boss! I meant my boss! :smack:
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### Author:  [@bonitahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bonitahi)
#### Post date: [June 22, 2006, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-universe-is-constantly-expanding/360149/67 "2006-06-22T15:18:20Z")
> [@Least Original User Name Ever](#):
>
> The universe thing was a joke.
A joke?
Just when I thought I was grasping some understanding…
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### Author:  [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)
#### Post date: [June 22, 2006, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-universe-is-constantly-expanding/360149/68 "2006-06-22T16:07:53Z")
> [@Malacandra](#):
>
> My boss! My boss! I meant my boss! :smack:
Too late
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### Author:  [@NineToTheSky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NineToTheSky)
#### Post date: [June 23, 2006, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-universe-is-constantly-expanding/360149/69 "2006-06-23T15:59:15Z")
> [@BJMoose](#):
>
> Maybe this will illustrate the concept of unequal infinite numbers:
>
> Draw a line segment on a piece of paper. Label the endpoints A and C. Label another point on the line segment B (somewhere between A and C). How many points are there in line segment AB? An infinite number. How many points are there in line segment AC? An infinite number. Ah, but AC includes all of the points in AB _plus_ additional points! So the infinite number describing AC is larger than (i.e., unequal to) the infinite number describing AB. Q.E.D. and whoop-de-doo. . . .
Sorry to come back to this (but I think very slowly). This may be a daft question, but are you saying that there are an infinite number of points because you can keep dividing A to C into ever smaller pieces? If that is so, I thought that the smallest ‘unit’ is the Planck length, and what happens when you get to that?
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### Author:  [@yelimS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yelimS)
#### Post date: [June 23, 2006, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-universe-is-constantly-expanding/360149/70 "2006-06-23T18:03:58Z")
> [@msmith537](#):
>
> The visible universe wouldn’t repeat exactly like a bathroom tile pattern. And statistics says that it won’t start repeating a few light years beyond what we can detect. As I said, you would have to travel an inconceivable distance.
It probably wouldn’t, but for all we know, it might. But I’d consider it a sufficent repeat if we could turn up an exact duplicate of a star or two. Nevermind the statistics, how can anyone know how many of the combinations of atoms in a given space are actually possible? And even though all of them are, we might encounter one of the “old” combinations before we find a new one, just like rolling two 3’s before you ever roll a four. But a big maybe, perhaps and might before all of this. I’m ONLY hypothesizing.
> [@](#):
>
> Also, you don’t need an Earth-like planet for an Earth’s sun-like sun. You do need an Earth’s sun-like sun to have an Earth-like planet though. Plus duplicate Earth wouldn’t need to stay duplicate Earth forever. This very instance it might be an exact duplicate, but maybe Earth II msmith keeps working while I go kick my boss in the nuts.
I guess the earth-sun could create a whole host of different planets under different circumstances, but notice again the “perhaps”. As an avid determinist, I’m constantly considering that situation A always leads to situation B. A duplicate of the sun is of course not a duplicate of the situation our solar system was in when it was created, but perhaps it’s either sufficient to create an earth-like planet again, or perhaps you wouldn’t get an earth-sun if not everything in relevant proximity (whatever that is) is exactly like when the sun was created.
Again, maybe, perhaps. I guess that’s what I like with discussing infinity (and wandering off, like I’m doing), that it involves a lot of guessing and fantasy. But I don’t considering my guesswork here completely irrational, though.
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### Author:  [@Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Least_Original_User_Name_Ever)
#### Post date: [June 23, 2006, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-universe-is-constantly-expanding/360149/71 "2006-06-23T19:19:33Z")
If the universe is in constant motion since the big bang. the universe is a baloon and we (and all the planets all the nebulae etc ), are living in the skin.
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### Author:  [@bonitahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bonitahi)
#### Post date: [June 25, 2006, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-universe-is-constantly-expanding/360149/72 "2006-06-25T01:02:03Z")
As per my original post question,
“If the universe is constantly expanding, then is it correct to say the universe is not infinite? And never can be?” I think after reading many considerate and thought provoking responses,
I am leaning to the comment made by yelimS.
To wit,
“with discussing infinity…that it involves a lot of guessing and fantasy.”
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### Author:  [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)
#### Post date: [June 25, 2006, 1:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-universe-is-constantly-expanding/360149/73 "2006-06-25T13:32:51Z")
> [@yelimS](#):
>
> Nevermind the statistics, how can anyone know how many of the combinations of atoms in a given space are actually possible?
Because there are a finite number of different types of atoms and they take up a finite amount of space. It’s like taking a box of multicolored marbles and shaking it up. With enough marbles in a big enough box, you should see a particular pattern (say red-blue-green-red) appear more than once by chance.
The other thing is that most of outer space is empty void - essentially nothing. How could nothing NOT go on forever?
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### Author:  [@yelimS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yelimS)
#### Post date: [June 25, 2006, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-universe-is-constantly-expanding/360149/74 "2006-06-25T16:32:41Z")
> [@msmith537](#):
>
> Because there are a finite number of different types of atoms and they take up a finite amount of space. It’s like taking a box of multicolored marbles and shaking it up. With enough marbles in a big enough box, you should see a particular pattern (say red-blue-green-red) appear more than once by chance.
> The other thing is that most of outer space is empty void - essentially nothing. How could nothing NOT go on forever?
Yup… at least one pattern more than once. However, there’s no guarantee for any particular pattern showing up. Like I said before, you can flip coins or roll die for all eternity without ever getting what you wanted.
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### Author:  [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)
#### Post date: [June 26, 2006, 8:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-universe-is-constantly-expanding/360149/75 "2006-06-26T08:44:36Z")
> [@msmith537](#):
>
> Too late
Ow. :eek:
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