# If the US can ignore Pakistan's sovereignty to advance American national interests, why not Mexico? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 3, 2023, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-us-can-ignore-pakistans-sovereignty-to-advance-american-national-interests-why-not-mexico/991058 "2023-10-03T16:30:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2023, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-us-can-ignore-pakistans-sovereignty-to-advance-american-national-interests-why-not-mexico/991058/1 "2023-10-03T16:30:12Z")
continuing the discussion from the Jack Smith thread: If ignoring the sovereignty of Pakistan to kill Bin Laden is acceptable in the interests of national security, what’s the problem with invading Mexico? > **[Trump Wanted to Fire Missiles at Mexico. Now the G.O.P. Wants to Send Troops.](https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/03/us/politics/trump-mexico-cartels-republican.html)** > > The Republican push to use military force in Mexico against drug cartels started in the Trump White House. He has plans to make the idea a reality in 2025. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2023, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-us-can-ignore-pakistans-sovereignty-to-advance-american-national-interests-why-not-mexico/991058/2 "2023-10-03T16:42:36Z")
The last time we tried a punitive raid into Mexico against bandits, it didn’t work out too well. > **[Pancho Villa Expedition](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pancho_Villa_Expedition#:~:text=The%20Pancho%20Villa%20Expedition%E2%80%94now,Pancho%22%20Villa%20from%20March%2014)** > > Conventionists > Constitutionalists > Pancho Villa ---
**Author:** ![Kropotkin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kropotkin/32/18045_2.png) [@Kropotkin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kropotkin)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2023, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-us-can-ignore-pakistans-sovereignty-to-advance-american-national-interests-why-not-mexico/991058/3 "2023-10-03T16:48:52Z")
Don’t encourage them! The last thing we need is Trump running on “54-40 or fight, and, I’m only being honest here, between the snowbirds and the Canada geese, those socialists up north started this!” ---
**Author:** ![snowthx](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowthx/32/10660_2.png) [@snowthx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/snowthx)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2023, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-us-can-ignore-pakistans-sovereignty-to-advance-american-national-interests-why-not-mexico/991058/4 "2023-10-03T16:54:45Z")
Off the top of my head, despite rhetoric from the right, Mexico is a close strategic ally, trading partner, and friend of the United States. Any unilateral military action by the US that kills or maims Mexicans would throw that whole relationship in jeopardy. Pakistan is lesser in all those areas compared to Mexico, the one target of the raid was not a citizen of Pakistan, and by himself was considered a major national security threat (as opposed to vague “gangs” and “drug lords”). ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2023, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-us-can-ignore-pakistans-sovereignty-to-advance-american-national-interests-why-not-mexico/991058/5 "2023-10-03T16:55:51Z")
> [@snowthx](#): > > Any unilateral military action by the US that kills or maims Mexicans would throw that whole relationship in jeopardy. And yet, the Republicans seem to be receptive to an assault on Mexico, so those sorts of things don’t seem to be important to Republicans any more. ---
**Author:** ![Pardel-Lux](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pardel-lux/32/20182_2.png) [@Pardel-Lux](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pardel-Lux)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2023, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-us-can-ignore-pakistans-sovereignty-to-advance-american-national-interests-why-not-mexico/991058/6 "2023-10-03T17:05:28Z")
One problem I see with invading or bombing Mexico is that there are a lot more Mexicans in the USA than there ever were Pakistanis, it is a neighboring country with well established smuggling channels for people and weapons and the mafia has deep pockets but no scruples. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2023, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-us-can-ignore-pakistans-sovereignty-to-advance-american-national-interests-why-not-mexico/991058/7 "2023-10-03T17:10:00Z")
Of course we can ignore Mexico’s sovereignty to advance US interest but that doesn’t make it a good idea. Mexico and the United States certainly have some issues with one another, but overall we’re pretty good neighbors with one another since Truman’s Good Neighbor policy towards Latin-America. As a whole, Mexicans don’t hate us and its in our best interest to keep in that way. If the United States wishes to do something about the cartels in Mexico then I humbly suggest we look into the conditions that led to their creation in the first place. Namely our war on drugs. Narco terrorism is places like Columbia and Mexico are fueled by our insatiable desire for drugs. But that kind of introspection is beyond the GOP I think. ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2023, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-us-can-ignore-pakistans-sovereignty-to-advance-american-national-interests-why-not-mexico/991058/8 "2023-10-03T17:13:09Z")
Sovereignty exists only as much as one causes others to respect it, typically through diplomacy or military. Pakistan, through it actions and inactions, lost that respect from the U.S. in the matter of Bin Laden. Hence, the American military action in territory claimed by Pakistan. The price the U.S. paid for violating Pakistan’s sovereignty was worth the goal. If Mexico and the U.S. reach a similar point where the price paid by the U.S. for violating Mexico’s sovereignty is worth the goal, then the U.S. will do it. This isn’t meant to single out the U.S. Every country makes that same calculation; it just happens that the U.S. has more impunity than others. For example, see India’s recent violation of Canada’s sovereignty by murdering a Canadian citizen in Canada. India decided that goal was worth the cost, so they did it. ---
**Author:** ![Jasmine](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jasmine/32/2964_2.png) [@Jasmine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jasmine)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2023, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-us-can-ignore-pakistans-sovereignty-to-advance-american-national-interests-why-not-mexico/991058/9 "2023-10-03T17:15:09Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > If ignoring the sovereignty of Pakistan to kill Bin Laden is acceptable in the interests of national security, what’s the problem with invading Mexico? A big one (of many) is that we have over 60 million Latinos living in the United States. It would make the protests against the Vietnam war look like a walk in the park. ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2023, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-us-can-ignore-pakistans-sovereignty-to-advance-american-national-interests-why-not-mexico/991058/10 "2023-10-03T17:33:02Z")
> [@snowthx](#): > > Pakistan is lesser in all those areas compared to Mexico, the one target of the raid was not a citizen of Pakistan, and by himself was considered a major national security threat (as opposed to vague “gangs” and “drug lords”). Plus, for Pakistan to publicly complain about the violation of its territorial sovereignty would necessitate answering why Bin Laden could live in a safe house just a short distance from a headquarters of Pakistan’s intelligence service. ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2023, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-us-can-ignore-pakistans-sovereignty-to-advance-american-national-interests-why-not-mexico/991058/11 "2023-10-03T17:33:04Z")
Don’t worry folks, MTG has got you covered. She’s making it all legal-like by drafting a declaration of war in her official capacity as a congresswoman. > **[Marjorie Taylor Greene Says She's Drafting 'Declaration of War' Against...](https://themessenger.com/politics/marjorie-taylor-greene-says-shes-drafting-declaration-of-war-against-mexican-cartels)** > > Greene's declaration comes after the Biden administration announced it will be sending 800 more troops to the southern border Nobody tell her that Congress can’t declare war against an organization that’s not the government of a sovereign country. ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2023, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-us-can-ignore-pakistans-sovereignty-to-advance-american-national-interests-why-not-mexico/991058/12 "2023-10-03T17:43:26Z")
> [@Dissonance](#): > > Nobody tell her that Congress can’t declare war against an organization that’s not the government of a sovereign country. Underlining added. I’m not so sure about that. Non-governmental organizations can definitely wage war (see Wagner Group, Islamic State, Taliban, etc). It seems reasonable that Congress could declare war against them. ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2023, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-us-can-ignore-pakistans-sovereignty-to-advance-american-national-interests-why-not-mexico/991058/13 "2023-10-03T17:48:41Z")
Wagner is a PMC, a mercenary organization selling its services to government entities. Both the Islamic State and the Taliban are government organizations. Notably Congress hasn’t declared war on any of them - and hasn’t declared war against another nation since WWII, even when we removed the Taliban from its position of being the governmental organization in power in Afghanistan in 2001. ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2023, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-us-can-ignore-pakistans-sovereignty-to-advance-american-national-interests-why-not-mexico/991058/14 "2023-10-03T17:52:59Z")
> [@Dissonance](#): > > Both the Islamic State and the Taliban are government organizations. The U.S. does not recognize them as such. ---
**Author:** ![Horatius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/horatius/32/3572_2.png) [@Horatius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatius)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2023, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-us-can-ignore-pakistans-sovereignty-to-advance-american-national-interests-why-not-mexico/991058/15 "2023-10-03T17:55:42Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > And yet, the Republicans seem to be receptive to an assault on Mexico, so those sorts of things don’t seem to be important to Republicans any more. Ultimately, any discussion of what happens between sovereign states turns on realpolitik. What is “right” and “wrong” depends entirely on how much power you have, and what goals you are trying to accomplish. I don’t think anyone would debate the assertion that the US has the physical capability to bomb any country on Earth, and to do so largely-consequence-free, if the country being bombed isn’t a nuclear power. So the question of “Why not Mexico?” turns on the question of “What is the US trying to accomplish, and will bombing make that goal more or less likely to be the end result?” The history of US involvements in various quagmires since the mid-1960s suggests that getting into another quagmire, and one that shares a border with the US, is likely to end badly. At least when you’re bombing Pakistan, the pissed off Pakistanis are on the other side of the planet, not just the other side of the Rio Grande. ---
**Author:** ![mjmartin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/3d9bf3/32.png) [@mjmartin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mjmartin)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2023, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-us-can-ignore-pakistans-sovereignty-to-advance-american-national-interests-why-not-mexico/991058/16 "2023-10-03T17:57:02Z")
The war on drugs has been an utter disaster. An American invasion would all but guarantee the next president of Mexico would be a left wing, anti-American populist. That is surely to make the war on drugs even less successful. Right now, if the DEA calls up the Federales and asks for assistance, they mostly get it. With a Hugo Chavez type leader in power, I don’t see that type of cooperation lasting very long. Somehow I doubt there are enough crayons in the world to explain this to MTG. ---
**Author:** ![Horatius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/horatius/32/3572_2.png) [@Horatius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatius)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2023, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-us-can-ignore-pakistans-sovereignty-to-advance-american-national-interests-why-not-mexico/991058/17 "2023-10-03T18:00:56Z")
> [@Dissonance](#): > > Notably Congress hasn’t declared war on any of them - and hasn’t declared war against another nation since WWII, even when we removed the Taliban from its position of being the governmental organization in power in Afghanistan in 2001. But a lot of that is that under the UN, there’s an argument that it is illegal to declare war these days. It still happens, but it’s very rare. > **[Declaration of war | Legality](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Declaration_of_war#Legality)** > > The legality of who is competent to declare war varies between nations and forms of government. In many nations, that power is given to the head of state or sovereign. The official international protocol for declaring war was defined in the Hague Convention (III) of 1907 on the Opening of Hostilities. > Since 1945, developments in international law such as the United Nations Charter, which prohibits both the threat and the use of force in international conflicts, have made declarations of war larg... ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2023, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-us-can-ignore-pakistans-sovereignty-to-advance-american-national-interests-why-not-mexico/991058/18 "2023-10-03T18:01:28Z")
> [@Pleonast](#): > > > [@Dissonance](#): > > > > Both the Islamic State and the Taliban are government organizations. > > The U.S. does not recognize them as such. Which only serves to make it impossible for Congress to declare war on them. Congress has declared war 11 times. There’s a list of them [here](https://www.senate.gov/about/powers-procedures/declarations-of-war.htm), notably they are all declarations against sovereign nations. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2023, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-us-can-ignore-pakistans-sovereignty-to-advance-american-national-interests-why-not-mexico/991058/19 "2023-10-03T20:13:45Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > If ignoring the sovereignty of Pakistan to kill Bin Laden is acceptable in the interests of national security, what’s the problem with invading Mexico? Well, we did promise we wouldnt do it again. And the Government of Pakistan did not conden out action. Nor approve it either. And it appears we had International law on our side- sorta, maybe. [https://www.asil.org/insights/volume/15/issue/11/pakistans-sovereignty-and-killing-osama-bin-laden](https://www.asil.org/insights/volume/15/issue/11/pakistans-sovereignty-and-killing-osama-bin-laden) > [@Dissonance](#): > > Nobody tell her that Congress can’t declare war against an organization that’s not the government of a sovereign country. We declared war on Terrorism. > [@mjmartin](#): > > The war on drugs has been an utter disaster. Yep. it is one of the reasons why America has a higher % of its citizens in prisons than any other free nation. Most “mass shootings” are drug gang fights- altho sadly often innocent bystanders are killed. Please note that Declarations of war are _passe_ internationally anyway. Pretty much WW2 was the last hurrah of doing it. Russia did not declare vs Ukraine. ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2023, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-us-can-ignore-pakistans-sovereignty-to-advance-american-national-interests-why-not-mexico/991058/20 "2023-10-03T21:50:56Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > > [@Dissonance](#): > > > > Nobody tell her that Congress can’t declare war against an organization that’s not the government of a sovereign country. > > We declared war on Terrorism. And we ‘declared war’ on Poverty and Drugs. Notably in none of these did a congressmember with a room temperature IQ announce that they were drafting a resolution actually declaring a state of war to exist between the United States of America and these concepts to be voted on by Congress. Because that would be laughably ridiculous. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-us-can-ignore-pakistans-sovereignty-to-advance-american-national-interests-why-not-mexico/991058.md?page=2)