# If the US does indeed have separation of church and state why does the church remain tax exempt? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 23, 2011, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-us-does-indeed-have-separation-of-church-and-state-why-does-the-church-remain-tax-exempt/590105 "2011-07-23T20:15:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2011, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-us-does-indeed-have-separation-of-church-and-state-why-does-the-church-remain-tax-exempt/590105/1 "2011-07-23T20:15:15Z")
Some organizations within any religious hierarchy are structured to funnel charitable donations to those less fortunate and so are tax exempt like those of their secular counterparts. But most of Church property and assets are tax exempt, if that portion of their organization also seeks to help the less fortunate they can, through the government’s social welfare programs, by paying taxes. \*I apologize if this has been covered before, and I’m sure it must have been, however I simply cannot find it in the archives. ---
**Author:** ![leahcim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/b4bc9f/32.png) [@leahcim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/leahcim)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2011, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-us-does-indeed-have-separation-of-church-and-state-why-does-the-church-remain-tax-exempt/590105/2 "2011-07-23T20:21:52Z")
No taxation without representation. The church is (in theory anyway) not represented in government, so it is not taxed. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2011, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-us-does-indeed-have-separation-of-church-and-state-why-does-the-church-remain-tax-exempt/590105/3 "2011-07-23T20:21:55Z")
All religions are tax exempt, not just Christian sects. ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2011, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-us-does-indeed-have-separation-of-church-and-state-why-does-the-church-remain-tax-exempt/590105/4 "2011-07-23T20:23:29Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > All religions are tax exempt, not just Christian sects. That doesn’t make it fair or sensible. Religions being tax exempt…what makes them special in the eyes of a government that isn’t involved in that sort of thing. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2011, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-us-does-indeed-have-separation-of-church-and-state-why-does-the-church-remain-tax-exempt/590105/5 "2011-07-23T20:28:25Z")
Whether or not it’s good policy or not is a separate issue, but if the government grants TE status to all religions, then it’s not establishing any one religion and it doesn’t run afoul of the separation of church and state. ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2011, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-us-does-indeed-have-separation-of-church-and-state-why-does-the-church-remain-tax-exempt/590105/6 "2011-07-23T20:31:29Z")
nm ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2011, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-us-does-indeed-have-separation-of-church-and-state-why-does-the-church-remain-tax-exempt/590105/7 "2011-07-23T20:37:19Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Whether or not it’s good policy or not is a separate issue, but if the government grants TE status to all religions, then it’s not establishing any one religion and it doesn’t run afoul of the separation of church and state. Establishing a tax policy for a group distinct from all other institutions simply because the state has recognized their religion as ‘organized’ is not separation of church and state. But perhaps I’m wrong and all that phrase ever meant was ‘no religion above another, and all above us’. ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2011, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-us-does-indeed-have-separation-of-church-and-state-why-does-the-church-remain-tax-exempt/590105/8 "2011-07-23T20:43:50Z")
> [@Sitnam](#): > > Some organizations within any religious hierarchy are structured to funnel charitable donations to those less fortunate and so are tax exempt like those of their secular counterparts. But most of Church property and assets are tax exempt, if that portion of their organization also seeks to help the less fortunate they can, through the government’s social welfare programs, by paying taxes. All non-profit organizations in the United States are tax-exempt. Churches are non-profit organizations and are therefore tax-exempt. The idea that paying taxes would “help the less fortunate” is absurd. Tax money mostly goes to either helping the more fortunate or hurting the less fortunate. As examples of the former, consider bailouts of major banks where the executives earn nine-figure incomes, ethanol subsidies, and interest payments to the Chinese government. As examples of the latter, consider missile strikes that kill Afghan civilians or a ‘war on drugs’ that cycles a large portion of the nation’s poor population in and out of jail throughout their life. These things are antithetical to the principles of Christianity. (And to most other major religions, I would hope.) ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2011, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-us-does-indeed-have-separation-of-church-and-state-why-does-the-church-remain-tax-exempt/590105/9 "2011-07-23T20:46:47Z")
“The power to tax is the power to destroy.” - John Marshall We can’t allow ourselves, via our government, the power to interfere with religion any more than we can allow the converse. ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2011, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-us-does-indeed-have-separation-of-church-and-state-why-does-the-church-remain-tax-exempt/590105/10 "2011-07-23T20:51:21Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > “The power to tax is the power to destroy.” - John Marshall > > We can’t allow ourselves, via our government, the power to interfere with religion any more than we can allow the converse. “No man is above the law and no man is below it: nor do we ask any man’s permission when we ask him to obey it.” -Theodore Roosevelt ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2011, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-us-does-indeed-have-separation-of-church-and-state-why-does-the-church-remain-tax-exempt/590105/11 "2011-07-23T20:51:48Z")
It’s mostly a tradition that churches not be taxed, part of it is because politically churches are often gathering places for politically active people. In many cities urban churches are heavily African American and are one of the few community structures available in lower income, minority neighborhoods. If those churches had to pay their proper share of property tax they would often be unable to continue operations without increased donations. So anyone trying to tax them would be in political hot water. That’s just one scenario, most every church is important to some group that is politically important, be it soccer moms, lower income blacks, Jews, conservative Catholics, liberal Catholics, anti-war Quakers and etc. Aside from tradition, churches are non-profit operations so technically it isn’t all that unusual they not be taxed on their non-profit operations. Some churches have for-profit operating units and those do get taxed. ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2011, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-us-does-indeed-have-separation-of-church-and-state-why-does-the-church-remain-tax-exempt/590105/12 "2011-07-23T20:54:08Z")
Understood. Which is why I used the word ‘remain’ in the OP title. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2011, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-us-does-indeed-have-separation-of-church-and-state-why-does-the-church-remain-tax-exempt/590105/13 "2011-07-23T20:57:52Z")
> [@Sitnam](#): > > Understood. Which is why I used the word ‘remain’ in the OP title. All the things I said “remain” true. Until: a) the political importance of community churches change b) the policy on taxing non profits change Churches will remain tax exempt. “Wall of separation between Church and State” was in a letter written by Thomas Jefferson, it is not part of the U.S. Constitution. The Church cannot establish a religion, it can’t show religious favoritism, it can’t support one religion over another, it can’t force people to undergo religious indoctrination, it can’t suppress religion, but there is no requirement under the Constitution that we tax religious groups. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2011, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-us-does-indeed-have-separation-of-church-and-state-why-does-the-church-remain-tax-exempt/590105/14 "2011-07-23T20:59:57Z")
Further it is particularly notable that Churches not paying tax on their organization’s operating revenue is due to clauses in the internal revenue code. Their not paying property taxes is a matter of local ordinance as property taxes are governed on the local level. Some States there are State-level rules about how counties and municipalities may collect property taxes, and other States essentially any incorporated town or any county can levy property taxes however it wishes. So that aspect has little to do with the U.S. Federal government, and mostly goes back to the political influence churches have on their localities, which is significant. ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2011, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-us-does-indeed-have-separation-of-church-and-state-why-does-the-church-remain-tax-exempt/590105/15 "2011-07-23T21:05:50Z")
[Here](http://supreme.justia.com/constitution/amendment-01/05-tax-exemptions-of-religious-property.html) > [@](#): > > The first prong of a two-prong argument saw the Court adopting Justice Brennan’s rationale. Using the secular purpose and effect test, Chief Justice Burger noted that the purpose of the exemption was not to single out churches for special favor; instead, the exemption applied to a broad category of associations having many common features and all dedicated to social betterment. Thus, churches as well as museums, hospitals, libraries, charitable organizations, professional associations, and the like, all non-profit, and all having a beneficial and stabilizing influence in community life, were to be encouraged by being treated specially in the tax laws. The primary effect of the exemptions was not to aid religion; the primary effect was secular and any assistance to religion was merely incidental. If the primary effect is incidental a church would then abide by the same rules as other non profit organizations. This is not the case. > [@](#): > > “If religious institutions benefit, it is in spite of rather than because of their religious character. For religious institutions simply share benefits which government makes generally available to educational, charitable, and eleemosynary groups.” Abington School Dist. v. Schempp, I cannot find accurate accounts of American church assets but I very much doubt it. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2011, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-us-does-indeed-have-separation-of-church-and-state-why-does-the-church-remain-tax-exempt/590105/16 "2011-07-23T21:51:11Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > All religions are tax exempt, not just Christian sects. Because the government unspokenly regards it as desirable to promote religion in general. Anything is better than the Ultimate Evil of _genuine_ secularism or worse atheism. The old idea that it’s better to kill for Kali and uphold a faith than it is to be an atheist and uphold none. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2011, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-us-does-indeed-have-separation-of-church-and-state-why-does-the-church-remain-tax-exempt/590105/17 "2011-07-23T21:54:44Z")
> [@Sitnam](#): > > [Here](http://supreme.justia.com/constitution/amendment-01/05-tax-exemptions-of-religious-property.html) > If the primary effect is incidental a church would then abide by the same rules as other non profit organizations. This is not the case. What tax exemptions do churches have that other, similar non-profit organizations do not? > [@](#): > > I cannot find accurate accounts of American church assets but I very much doubt it. Doubt what? That churches benefit from the same things that other non-profits do? Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2011, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-us-does-indeed-have-separation-of-church-and-state-why-does-the-church-remain-tax-exempt/590105/18 "2011-07-23T22:20:04Z")
> [@Sitnam](#): > > \*I apologize if this has been covered before, and I’m sure it must have been, however I simply cannot find it in the archives. I went looking and found this thread: [Why are churches in the US tax exempt?](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=491007) Upon looking through the thread, I find that my own contribution was to link to an earlier thread, to which I contributed by linking to yet earlier threads. I wonder how deeply-nested this will eventually go. 🙂 I also turned up the more-recent threads [Are there any movements underway to take tax-free status away from churches](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=522380), and [How does the IRS verify a church’s validity?](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=495814) ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2011, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-us-does-indeed-have-separation-of-church-and-state-why-does-the-church-remain-tax-exempt/590105/19 "2011-07-23T23:16:48Z")
There have been times and places where the state-approved church had the **power** to levy taxes. (See [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tithe]tithe.[/url) Just be glad we don’t have that. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2011, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-us-does-indeed-have-separation-of-church-and-state-why-does-the-church-remain-tax-exempt/590105/20 "2011-07-23T23:33:04Z")
Doesn’t Germany have a form of that even today? [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-us-does-indeed-have-separation-of-church-and-state-why-does-the-church-remain-tax-exempt/590105.md?page=2)