# If the US does indeed have separation of church and state why does the church remain tax exempt? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 23, 2011, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-us-does-indeed-have-separation-of-church-and-state-why-does-the-church-remain-tax-exempt/590105 "2011-07-23T20:15:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Horatio\_Hellpop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Horatio\_Hellpop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatio_Hellpop)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2011, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-us-does-indeed-have-separation-of-church-and-state-why-does-the-church-remain-tax-exempt/590105/21 "2011-07-24T00:06:57Z")
> [@leahcim](#): > > No taxation without representation. The church is (in theory anyway) not represented in government, so it is not taxed. Clergymen vote. They’re as represented in government as I am. ---
**Author:** ![Candyman74](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ad7895/32.png) [@Candyman74](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Candyman74)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2011, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-us-does-indeed-have-separation-of-church-and-state-why-does-the-church-remain-tax-exempt/590105/22 "2011-07-24T00:36:55Z")
Churches are nothing special. They just happen to be non-profit, like amny other organizations. If they were profit organizations, they’d be taxed. The fact that they’re religious is irrelevant. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2011, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-us-does-indeed-have-separation-of-church-and-state-why-does-the-church-remain-tax-exempt/590105/23 "2011-07-24T02:17:04Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > The idea that paying taxes would “help the less fortunate” is absurd. Not really. Hence why you’ve had to say “mostly” in your post, instead of “totally”. And even granting your examples, I think each of them could equally be spun to show how they aid the less fortunate pretty simply. ---
**Author:** ![code\_grey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f4b2a3/32.png) [@code\_grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/code_grey)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2011, 3:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-us-does-indeed-have-separation-of-church-and-state-why-does-the-church-remain-tax-exempt/590105/24 "2011-07-24T03:45:34Z")
> [@Candyman74](#): > > Churches are nothing special. They just happen to be non-profit, like amny other organizations. If they were profit organizations, they’d be taxed. The fact that they’re religious is irrelevant. people, please fight my ignorance here. If church taxation is no different from NPO taxation but “political activity” rules are different then why don’t all churches just become NPO and do all the politicking they want in a legit manner? Or is tax regime for churches in fact somehow more favorable than for NPOs? ---
**Author:** ![gatorslap](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bb73d2/32.png) [@gatorslap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gatorslap)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2011, 4:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-us-does-indeed-have-separation-of-church-and-state-why-does-the-church-remain-tax-exempt/590105/25 "2011-07-24T04:06:19Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > All non-profit organizations in the United States are tax-exempt. Churches are non-profit organizations and are therefore tax-exempt. The Church of Scientology is not non-profit, and it is still tax exempt. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2011, 4:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-us-does-indeed-have-separation-of-church-and-state-why-does-the-church-remain-tax-exempt/590105/26 "2011-07-24T04:12:26Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Because the government unspokenly regards it as desirable to promote religion in general. Anything is better than the Ultimate Evil of _genuine_ secularism or worse atheism. The old idea that it’s better to kill for Kali and uphold a faith than it is to be an atheist and uphold none. No, atheist or secular charities or any other non-profit group will not get taxed either. ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2011, 4:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-us-does-indeed-have-separation-of-church-and-state-why-does-the-church-remain-tax-exempt/590105/27 "2011-07-24T04:15:53Z")
> [@Krokodil](#): > > Clergymen vote. They’re as represented in government as I am. And hence their salaries are taxed just as yours is. > [@Revenant Threshold](#): > > Not really. Hence why you’ve had to say “mostly” in your post, instead of “totally”. And even granting your examples, I think each of them could equally be spun to show how they aid the less fortunate pretty simply. But the point is that **Sitnam** said that if churches “seek to help the less fortunate they can, through the government’s social welfare programs, by paying taxes”. I’m merely point out why that doesn’t work. Suppose a church wants to use $100,000 of its money to build a clinic for orphans in Mozambique. If churches were taxed, they’d have to give half that money to various government branches instead. So if the $50,000 is gone and then distributed mostly to the military, interest payments, and corporate welfare, and the church no longer has enough to build the clinic, it would be cold comfort to know that the government handouts to the rich could be spun as aiding the poor. ---
**Author:** ![x-ray\_vision](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/x-ray_vision/32/351_2.png) [@x-ray\_vision](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/x-ray_vision)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2011, 4:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-us-does-indeed-have-separation-of-church-and-state-why-does-the-church-remain-tax-exempt/590105/28 "2011-07-24T04:19:41Z")
> [@gatorslap](#): > > The Church of Scientology is not non-profit, and it is still tax exempt. Not according to the U.S. Supreme court and the IRS. > **[Scientologists and IRS settled for $12.5 million - 30 Dec 1997](http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/Cowen/essays/wj301297.html)** ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2011, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-us-does-indeed-have-separation-of-church-and-state-why-does-the-church-remain-tax-exempt/590105/29 "2011-07-24T15:07:08Z")
Well, it looks like others have said this, but I’ll add my two cents anyway. A church is basically a social organization and a charity, both of which are tax-exempt. If an organization wants to feed the poor, then it is tax-exempt whether it does it for religious purposes or not. Similarly, if a group wants to get together and socialize, it is tax-exempt whether they talk about religion or not. So, there’s no favoring of religion over non-religion. Also, churches are tax-exempt in exactly the same way other charities are. So, if they engage in a business, they will be taxed on income from that business. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2011, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-us-does-indeed-have-separation-of-church-and-state-why-does-the-church-remain-tax-exempt/590105/30 "2011-07-24T19:45:06Z")
Of course, for much of Western history the RCC was **not** a nonprofit, it was the biggest single landlord in Europe. “I have somewhere heard or read the frank confession of a Benedictine abbot: ‘My vow of poverty has given me an hundred thousand crowns a year; my vow of obedience has raised me to the rank of a sovereign prince.’ - I forget the consequences of his vow of chastity.” – Edward Gibbon And the Church of England was no better. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2011, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-us-does-indeed-have-separation-of-church-and-state-why-does-the-church-remain-tax-exempt/590105/31 "2011-07-24T20:38:43Z")
The separation of church and state should go both ways. When a church tells its members how to vote , it should pay taxes.If they are non political, exemption could be allowed. ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2011, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-us-does-indeed-have-separation-of-church-and-state-why-does-the-church-remain-tax-exempt/590105/32 "2011-07-24T21:16:33Z")
**Gonzomax** , I can’t give you a cite, but I believe some individual churches (as opposed to denominations) have had their tax exempt statuses challenged if not taken away all together for that very reason. > [@](#): > > **Der Trihs** : Because the government unspokenly regards it as desirable to promote religion in general. Anything is better than the Ultimate Evil of genuine secularism or worse atheism. The old idea that it’s better to kill for Kali and uphold a faith than it is to be an atheist and uphold none. It’s not the government, **Der Trihs**. It’s some of the people who hold government positions and break the rules. I was part of the government for twenty years and did not regard it as desirable to promote religion even though I am a Christian open to many religions. But because I was an Anglican at that time, the fundamentalists in administrative positions both in my school and one level up harassed me when I requested Ash Wednesday and All Saints’ Day off – as did the other Anglican teacher in school. The Executive Principal, not realizing that the Assistant Principal and I were old friends, gave him my request for All Saints’ Day off and said, “Run interferance on this.” The Assistant Principal told me of the hurdles I would face, so I went straight to the rector of my church who cut through a lot of BS. But that principal was a mean-spirited individual in a government job. He wasn’t “the government” which is made up of atheists, secular humanists, and people of many faiths. Sometimes _it is_ politically advantageous to keep certain religious traditions rather than make waves by dropping them. I think that is cowardly and I find it offensive. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2011, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-us-does-indeed-have-separation-of-church-and-state-why-does-the-church-remain-tax-exempt/590105/33 "2011-07-24T23:47:14Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > But the point is that **Sitnam** said that if churches “seek to help the less fortunate they can, through the government’s social welfare programs, by paying taxes”. I’m merely point out why that doesn’t work. Suppose a church wants to use $100,000 of its money to build a clinic for orphans in Mozambique. If churches were taxed, they’d have to give half that money to various government branches instead. So if the $50,000 is gone and then distributed mostly to the military, interest payments, and corporate welfare, and the church no longer has enough to build the clinic, it would be cold comfort to know that the government handouts to the rich could be spun as aiding the poor. Well, that would tend to presuppose that churches spend their money entirely on good works, too. Anyway, I disagree, I don’t think that’s cold comfort, unless we’re saying that there’s a sole single way to help people. It may well appear less directly, less obviously helpful, but that’s a cheat’s solution to the problem. The military, interest payments, and even corporate welfare are things that can indeed help out the poor. There’s also the matter of efficiency of pooled money; certainly, there are churches who organise amongst themselves a cooperative single venture, but they really can’t compare to the efficiency of the kind of money taxes bring in. Yes, I know, government isn’t exactly a byword for efficient spending. Still, there are things you can do with (say) a thousand dollars that you can’t do, or can’t do as well, with 100 seperate lots of ten bucks. And if nothing else, taxes, correctly applied to a country, have the ability to create yet more money. I’m sure that it’s cold comfort for orphans in the Sudan to know that people have already spent all their money helping Mozambique. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2011, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-us-does-indeed-have-separation-of-church-and-state-why-does-the-church-remain-tax-exempt/590105/34 "2011-07-24T23:59:53Z")
You don’t even have to be a charity to be a non-profit organization. ---
**Author:** ![sqweels](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f19dbf/32.png) [@sqweels](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sqweels)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2011, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-us-does-indeed-have-separation-of-church-and-state-why-does-the-church-remain-tax-exempt/590105/35 "2011-07-25T00:23:57Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > The separation of church and state should go both ways. When a church tells its members how to vote , it should pay taxes.If they are non political, exemption could be allowed. A few years ago on Al Franken’s radio show, he and his guest were discussing situations where religious organizations sometimes risk losing their tax-exempt status for engaging in political activity (paraphrasing from memory): Guest: “Well, churches generally don’t make much profit, so the impact won’t be that great”. Franken: “No, but people’s donations to the church will no longer be tax-deductible, anf that’s _huge_”. Guest: “Uh, I hadn’t considered that”. Franken: “Whoa, wait. You’re the _Assistant Secretary for Tax Policy_\* and you didn’t know that?” - I forget the guest’s actual title, but he later admitted his embarrassment at overlooking a critical point. Just thought I’d share that as somehow relevant. ---
**Author:** ![shiftless](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9c0ed/32.png) [@shiftless](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/shiftless)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2011, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-us-does-indeed-have-separation-of-church-and-state-why-does-the-church-remain-tax-exempt/590105/36 "2011-07-25T14:17:55Z")
> [@sqweels](#): > > Franken: “No, but people’s donations to the church will no longer be tax-deductible, anf that’s _huge_”. This is a huge difference between a nonprofit organization and a religious organization. If I give money to a nonprofit, that money is not deductible. If I give to a church that money is deductible and the church is not restrained in the use of it. For example, one could give money to Jimmy Swaggert’s church, take the deduction and he can use that money for hookers (errrr, I mean, for consoling wayward girls.) By assuming all churches use all their money for charitable purposes, the government is supporting both the immoral activities of certain religious leaders and also the evangelical activities that are a cornerstone of so many Christian sects. ---
**Author:** ![Mines\_Mystique](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d26b3c/32.png) [@Mines\_Mystique](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mines_Mystique)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2011, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-us-does-indeed-have-separation-of-church-and-state-why-does-the-church-remain-tax-exempt/590105/37 "2011-07-25T14:24:52Z")
> [@shiftless](#): > > This is a huge difference between a nonprofit organization and a religious organization. If I give money to a nonprofit, that money is not deductible. If I give to a church that money is deductible and the church is not restrained in the use of it. For example, one could give money to Jimmy Swaggert’s church, take the deduction and he can use that money for hookers (errrr, I mean, for consoling wayward girls.) By assuming all churches use all their money for charitable purposes, the government is supporting both the immoral activities of certain religious leaders and also the evangelical activities that are a cornerstone of so many Christian sects. I’m no tax expert, but isn’t a donation to any 501(c)(3) organization tax exempt? That is where most churches are getting there tax exempt status from, as well as most non-profit organizations? ---
**Author:** ![shiftless](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9c0ed/32.png) [@shiftless](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/shiftless)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2011, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-us-does-indeed-have-separation-of-church-and-state-why-does-the-church-remain-tax-exempt/590105/38 "2011-07-25T14:38:39Z")
> [@Mines\_Mystique](#): > > I’m no tax expert, but isn’t a donation to any 501(c)(3) organization tax exempt? That is where most churches are getting there tax exempt status from, as well as most non-profit organizations? Well, I could be wrong, it’s happened before. When I give money to ACLU, for example, they tell me the money is NOT tax deductable and I’m pretty sure they are a not-for-profit organization. I would be very suprised to find that they are turning a profit for someone. From this site: [http://www.irs.gov/charities/charitable/article/0,id=96099,00.html](http://www.irs.gov/charities/charitable/article/0,,id=96099,00.html) > [@](#): > > To be tax-exempt under section 501(c)(3) of the Internal Revenue Code, an organization must be organized and operated exclusively for exempt purposes set forth in section 501(c)(3), and none of its earnings may inure to any private shareholder or individual. In addition, it may not be an action organization, i.e., it may not attempt to influence legislation as a substantial part of its activities and it may not participate in any campaign activity for or against political candidates. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2011, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-us-does-indeed-have-separation-of-church-and-state-why-does-the-church-remain-tax-exempt/590105/39 "2011-07-25T21:48:34Z")
It does not have to be that complex. Many Amerian voters find it valuable not to tax churches or at least do not care enough to agitate for change. It works for us. We choose not to interpret this as unconstitutional because we choose not to. The constituion is great. But the fact is, if we all agreed the ban on quartering soilders was actually a ban on setting speed limits, we would have ourselves a ban on setting speed limits. ---
**Author:** ![Algher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Algher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algher)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2011, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-us-does-indeed-have-separation-of-church-and-state-why-does-the-church-remain-tax-exempt/590105/40 "2011-07-25T21:51:18Z")
> [@shiftless](#): > > Well, I could be wrong, it’s happened before. When I give money to ACLU, for example, they tell me the money is NOT tax deductable and I’m pretty sure they are a not-for-profit organization. I would be very suprised to find that they are turning a profit for someone. > > From this site: [http://www.irs.gov/charities/charitable/article/0,id=96099,00.html](http://www.irs.gov/charities/charitable/article/0,,id=96099,00.html) I know that the NRA has two groups - one is a non-profit foundation for tax-deductible donations, another is for their political actions and is NOT deductible. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-us-does-indeed-have-separation-of-church-and-state-why-does-the-church-remain-tax-exempt/590105.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-us-does-indeed-have-separation-of-church-and-state-why-does-the-church-remain-tax-exempt/590105.md?page=3)