# If the US had Atom Bombs During the beginning of WW2 Would We Use them and How to Win War? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [July 23, 2010, 12:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-us-had-atom-bombs-during-the-beginning-of-ww2-would-we-use-them-and-how-to-win-war/547703 "2010-07-23T12:57:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Snnipe\_70E](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5a626/32.png) [@Snnipe\_70E](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snnipe_70E)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2010, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-us-had-atom-bombs-during-the-beginning-of-ww2-would-we-use-them-and-how-to-win-war/547703/41 "2010-07-24T00:59:31Z")
> [@Hypno-Toad](#): > > It would be easier to invent the B-29 than to shrink the nuke rounds down to artillery size. I heard once on the history chanel that the B29 cost twice what the Mathattan project cost. So maybe not easier ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2010, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-us-had-atom-bombs-during-the-beginning-of-ww2-would-we-use-them-and-how-to-win-war/547703/42 "2010-07-24T01:01:03Z")
> [@Snnipe\_70E](#): > > I heard once on the history chanel that the B29 cost twice what the Mathattan project cost. Did they say why? Apparently many aircraft have been designed from the B-29 airframe. But how hard is that? It’s a big tube with wings. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2010, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-us-had-atom-bombs-during-the-beginning-of-ww2-would-we-use-them-and-how-to-win-war/547703/43 "2010-07-24T01:09:05Z")
Slightly off topic, but I’ve always wondered what Hitler’s reaction would have been if he had still been alive to witness the bombings. (That’s one thing I do regret about us having to use said bombs – that Hitler was already dead and couldn’t witness it.) ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2010, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-us-had-atom-bombs-during-the-beginning-of-ww2-would-we-use-them-and-how-to-win-war/547703/44 "2010-07-24T01:11:26Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > Slightly off topic, but I’ve always wondered what Hitler’s reaction would have been if he had still been alive to witness the bombings. > > (That’s one thing I do regret about us having to use said bombs – that Hitler was already dead and couldn’t witness it.) Hell, I wish he’d lived long enough to hear a whistling sound over his bunker in Berlin. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Kent\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kent_clark/32/105_2.png) [@Kent\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kent_Clark)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2010, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-us-had-atom-bombs-during-the-beginning-of-ww2-would-we-use-them-and-how-to-win-war/547703/45 "2010-07-24T01:33:01Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > Did they say why? > Apparently many aircraft have been designed from the B-29 airframe. But how hard is that? It’s a big tube with wings. 🙂 Here’s a story on the [development of the B-29.](http://www.aviation-history.com/boeing/b29.html) A lot of problems with the engines, among other things. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2010, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-us-had-atom-bombs-during-the-beginning-of-ww2-would-we-use-them-and-how-to-win-war/547703/46 "2010-07-24T01:56:24Z")
> [@Hypno-Toad](#): > > We would definately have used it if possible. The horror that is currently attached to nuclear weapons is based on our greater knowledge of their effects and long term consequences. Back then it was just a really powerful explosive. > > Our first target would have been Germany. It was our priority to defeat them first anyway and having the bomb would not have changed it. Western and northern German cities like Hamburg and Bremen would have been nuked. We were already trying to utterly destroy them with conventional bombs. Apart from the radiation, the firestorm that Dresden suffered wasn’t much different in effect. > > We would not have warned them. We didn’t warn the Japanese in real life, so I doubt that the rationales or procedures would have been any different under this scenario. Also, one of the main reasons for using the bomb was that it prevented loss of allied lives that would have been spent in ground assault. If we could use nukes sooner, why would we deliberately let our own men die before using it? Right, it was just another weapon. The USA was fighting for it’s very national life, it’s freedom. Today we look back and think “Oh, of course the Allies were going to win, the Allies could afford to be magnanomous”, but defeat by the Axis was a very real threat and one the Allies took very seriously. Only since the 50’s have we been conditoned (and rightly so) to consider using Nukes as “unthinkable”. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2010, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-us-had-atom-bombs-during-the-beginning-of-ww2-would-we-use-them-and-how-to-win-war/547703/47 "2010-07-24T01:57:28Z")
> [@Mr.Kobayashi](#): > > At the start of the war in 1939 the U.S. was still officially neutral, so they might have done nothing at all until at least December 1941, assuming no other changes. Of course, they could demonstrate the bomb to the world. This would be a very bad thing indeed, as it would mean no Pearl Harbour. A sleeping giant with a massive bomb? No thanks. So unless FDR could find another way to enter the war the U.K. and U.S.S.R. go it alone. Of course, that’s worst case scenario. > . I don;t think a demo would have cut it. ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Robson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gary_robson/32/3448_2.png) [@Gary\_Robson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Robson)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2010, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-us-had-atom-bombs-during-the-beginning-of-ww2-would-we-use-them-and-how-to-win-war/547703/48 "2010-07-24T02:50:56Z")
> [@Hershon4](#): > > I’d appreciate your speculation on this. Thanks [moderating] And it’s speculating you’re getting! Which belongs in IMHO, not where the thread was posted in GQ. I moved it. [/moderating] ---
**Author:** ![Ranchoth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ranchoth/32/1066_2.png) [@Ranchoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ranchoth)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2010, 12:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-us-had-atom-bombs-during-the-beginning-of-ww2-would-we-use-them-and-how-to-win-war/547703/49 "2010-07-24T12:20:47Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > > [@Ranchoth](#): > > > > and with deficiencies in aircraft delivery systems? > > Well, you don’t have to be too accurate. 🙂 > > If you could deliver it from a carrier, I’d say the best use would be on a Japanese carrier group. But I seem to remember that finding them was a problem. Sure. But the issue also becomes getting an aircraft that could carry the nuclear weapon, take off from a carrier with it, travel far enough to reach the target, not get shot down on the way there or while making the attack, and, preferably (although not a complete requirement), not killing the crew in the process. In fact, the Navy’s first nuclear-capable carrier aircraft didn’t fly until 1949 (though the aircraft model was from '47)—and it not only wasn’t designed as a bomber, it wasn’t even intended as a _carrier aircraft_. It was the “[P2V-C3](http://www.vectorsite.net/avp2v.html#m3)” variant of the P-2 “Neptune,” and it would have to take off with the use of JATOs, and either land at a friendly base after making the attack, or ditch near a Naval vessel. The first purpose designed naval nuclear bomber was the [AJ Savage](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_American_AJ_Savage), which first flew in '49. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Kobayashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4af34b/32.png) [@Mr.Kobayashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Kobayashi)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2010, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-us-had-atom-bombs-during-the-beginning-of-ww2-would-we-use-them-and-how-to-win-war/547703/50 "2010-07-24T16:29:38Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > > [@Mr.Kobayashi](#): > > > > At the start of the war in 1939 the U.S. was still officially neutral, so they might have done nothing at all until at least December 1941, assuming no other changes. Of course, they could demonstrate the bomb to the world. This would be a very bad thing indeed, as it would mean no Pearl Harbour. A sleeping giant with a massive bomb? No thanks. So unless FDR could find another way to enter the war the U.K. and U.S.S.R. go it alone. Of course, that’s worst case scenario. > > . > > I don;t think a demo would have cut it. You’re bang on if we were talking about events as they happened, with the bomb coming to fruition in 1945 after years of vicious struggle with the Japanese. But in 1939, it certainly might have made cooler heads prevail in the decision regarding Pearl Harbour. Yamamoto even threatened to resign, as the plan faced much opposition. On the course of the war, Yamamoto is attributed with the quote; “I can run wild for six months … after that, I have no expectation of success”. [3] Now imagine that with “…oh, and they have a bomb that can vaporise cities.” For anyone doubting that the U.S. would still focus on Europe and use the bomb on Germany even early in the war, look up the Plan Dog Memorandum, in which Chief of Naval Operations Stark writes; “As I have previously stated, I also believe that Great Britain requires from us very great help in the Atlantic, and possibly even on the continents of Europe or Africa, if she is to be enabled to survive. In my opinion Alternatives (A), (B), and (C) will most probably not provide the necessary degree of assistance, and, therefore, if we undertake war, that Alternative (D) is likely to be the most fruitful for the United States, particularly if we enter the war at an early date. " Alternative (D) was " D - Go on the offensive in the Atlantic (against Germany and Italy) while remaining on the defensive in the Pacific.”. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2010, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-us-had-atom-bombs-during-the-beginning-of-ww2-would-we-use-them-and-how-to-win-war/547703/51 "2010-07-24T16:37:01Z")
[quote=“Mr.Kobayashi, post:50, topic:547703”] [quote=“DrDeth, post:47, topic:547703”] > [@Mr.Kobayashi](#): > > On the course of the war, Yamamoto is attributed with the quote; > “I can run wild for six months … after that, I have no expectation of success”. [3] > Now imagine that with “…oh, and they have a bomb that can vaporise cities.” When a space shuttle placed a satellite in orbit to spy on Iraq, I thought Saddam Hussein would back off. Some Esther would tell his Ahasuerus, “My master, we have antiquated Russian tanks. They have space ships.” ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Kobayashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4af34b/32.png) [@Mr.Kobayashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Kobayashi)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2010, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-us-had-atom-bombs-during-the-beginning-of-ww2-would-we-use-them-and-how-to-win-war/547703/52 "2010-07-24T17:00:14Z")
[quote=“carnivorousplant, post:51, topic:547703”] [quote=“Mr.Kobayashi, post:50, topic:547703”] > [@DrDeth](#): > > > [@Mr.Kobayashi](#): > > > > On the course of the war, Yamamoto is attributed with the quote; > > “I can run wild for six months … after that, I have no expectation of success”. [3] > > Now imagine that with “…oh, and they have a bomb that can vaporise cities.” > > When a space shuttle placed a satellite in orbit to spy on Iraq, I thought Saddam Hussein would back off. Some Esther would tell his Ahasuerus, “My master, we have antiquated Russian tanks. They have space ships.” And he would have been wise to heed those words, since he finished up at the end of a rope. In any case, Yamamoto was not a stupid man - every objective of the Pearl Harbour attack would be undermined if the United States had an unknown number of atomic bombs at her disposal. With these bombs, the U.S. could interfere with Japanese plans in East Asia at will, and at great cost to Japan. There would be no hope of an early ‘knockout blow’ to her morale or capability to fight. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2010, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-us-had-atom-bombs-during-the-beginning-of-ww2-would-we-use-them-and-how-to-win-war/547703/53 "2010-07-24T17:06:28Z")
> [@Mr.Kobayashi](#): > > And he would have been wise to heed those words, since he finished up at the end of a rope. I thought his transport aircraft was ambushed by a flight of P-38s. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2010, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-us-had-atom-bombs-during-the-beginning-of-ww2-would-we-use-them-and-how-to-win-war/547703/54 "2010-07-24T17:25:46Z")
> [@Mr.Kobayashi](#): > > > [@DrDeth](#): > > > > > [@Mr.Kobayashi](#): > > > > > > At the start of the war in 1939 the U.S. was still officially neutral, so they might have done nothing at all until at least December 1941, assuming no other changes. Of course, they could demonstrate the bomb to the world. This would be a very bad thing indeed, as it would mean no Pearl Harbour. A sleeping giant with a massive bomb? No thanks. So unless FDR could find another way to enter the war the U.K. and U.S.S.R. go it alone. Of course, that’s worst case scenario. > > > . > > > > I don;t think a demo would have cut it. > > You’re bang on if we were talking about events as they happened, with the bomb coming to fruition in 1945 after years of vicious struggle with the Japanese. But in 1939, it certainly might have made cooler heads prevail in the decision regarding Pearl Harbour. Yamamoto even threatened to resign, as the plan faced much opposition. On the course of the war, Yamamoto is attributed with the quote; > “I can run wild for six months … after that, I have no expectation of success”. [3] > Now imagine that with “…oh, and they have a bomb that can vaporise cities.” > > . Ok true, Once commited I am sure a demo would not have done it. But beforehand, you may be right. **carnivorousplant** : Hussein was hanged, Yamamoto was shot down. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Kobayashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4af34b/32.png) [@Mr.Kobayashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Kobayashi)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2010, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-us-had-atom-bombs-during-the-beginning-of-ww2-would-we-use-them-and-how-to-win-war/547703/55 "2010-07-24T22:32:09Z")
Yeah, I was talking about Saddam - although the analogy is flawed, as there we invaded, rather than being attacked. The Japanese weren’t suicidal enough (that early on - the first kamikazes were in 1944) to attack a U.S. with an unknown number of a-bombs. Getting them there might have been a problem, but the Japanese didn’t know that, and necessity is the mother of invention. It would be like playing Russian roulette with a loaded revolver; Pearl Harbour in itself was seen as a massive risk that counted on ‘decisive battle’ doctrine to free Japan from U.S. involvement in the Pacific. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2010, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-us-had-atom-bombs-during-the-beginning-of-ww2-would-we-use-them-and-how-to-win-war/547703/56 "2010-07-24T22:34:28Z")
> [@Mr.Kobayashi](#): > > Yeah, I was talking about Saddam - I obviously misunderstood your post. > [@Mr.Kobayashi](#): > > Pearl Harbour in itself was seen as a massive risk that counted on ‘decisive battle’ doctrine to free Japan from U.S. involvement in the Pacific. A risk in that the attack might not succeed, or that it would awaken “a sleeping giant”? ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Kobayashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4af34b/32.png) [@Mr.Kobayashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Kobayashi)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2010, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-us-had-atom-bombs-during-the-beginning-of-ww2-would-we-use-them-and-how-to-win-war/547703/57 "2010-07-24T22:54:07Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > > [@Mr.Kobayashi](#): > > > > Yeah, I was talking about Saddam - > > I obviously misunderstood your post. > > > [@Mr.Kobayashi](#): > > > > Pearl Harbour in itself was seen as a massive risk that counted on ‘decisive battle’ doctrine to free Japan from U.S. involvement in the Pacific. > > A risk in that the attack might not succeed, or that it would awaken “a sleeping giant”? Both and more; that it would not have accomplished any of the [objectives](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attack_on_Pearl_Harbor#Objectives) it set out to accomplish - which, in the end, it didn’t. American morale was not shattered and the Pacific fleet was still relatively intact (what with _Lexington_ and _Enterprise_ being out of port). ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2010, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-us-had-atom-bombs-during-the-beginning-of-ww2-would-we-use-them-and-how-to-win-war/547703/58 "2010-07-24T22:57:42Z")
> [@Mr.Kobayashi](#): > > American morale was not shattered and the Pacific fleet was still relatively intact (what with _Lexington_ and _Enterprise_ being out of port). Well, it certainly pissed of my Paternal Grandmother! To misquote Richard Blaine, “There are certain Grandmothers I wouldn’t advise anyone to piss off.” 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Kobayashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4af34b/32.png) [@Mr.Kobayashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Kobayashi)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2010, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-us-had-atom-bombs-during-the-beginning-of-ww2-would-we-use-them-and-how-to-win-war/547703/59 "2010-07-24T23:05:59Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > > [@Mr.Kobayashi](#): > > > > American morale was not shattered and the Pacific fleet was still relatively intact (what with _Lexington_ and _Enterprise_ being out of port). > > Well, it certainly pissed of my Paternal Grandmother! To misquote Richard Blaine, “There are certain Grandmothers I wouldn’t advise anyone to piss off.” > 🙂 Haha, I bet. This was another area Pearl Harbour badly backfired, rather than break the will to fight the enemy it strengthened it (which is also what the blitz did to us Brits). And to quote the terminator, anger is more useful than despair. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2010, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-us-had-atom-bombs-during-the-beginning-of-ww2-would-we-use-them-and-how-to-win-war/547703/60 "2010-07-24T23:25:41Z")
> [@Mr.Kobayashi](#): > > Haha, I bet. This was another area Pearl Harbour badly backfired, rather than break the will to fight the enemy it strengthened it (which is also what the blitz did to us Brits). She had a son killed in the Army Air Corps in WWII. She believed that the German Q boat guys in WWI ate babies, too. Despite living near a colony of German immigrants in Stuttgart, Arkansas and describing them as good and kind people. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-us-had-atom-bombs-during-the-beginning-of-ww2-would-we-use-them-and-how-to-win-war/547703.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-us-had-atom-bombs-during-the-beginning-of-ww2-would-we-use-them-and-how-to-win-war/547703.md?page=4)